9 hours ago, Dezlin said:

force multipliers like howlrunner and ace protection for expensive aces like vader, wedge, or luke are the main advantages of wings, other than saving time. I had a good time running inferno squad as a wing (howl/iden/hask/del/seyn/wampa). And wedge with a wing of t656s is a lot of firepower and hp to chew through.

That and allowing wingleader-init locks for low init wingmates. Epic, especially with Huge ships and scenarios, really feels like a different game to me. In the sense that, you have to unlearn alot of your Standard-game tactics. Which is cool! But can be disorienting if you jump from one format to the other.

11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Okay. So you can boost the whole wing with one afterburners eh. That seems pretty uhh silly.

Yeah, I'm just going to be super remedial here.

What I'm reading is this:

Quote

WINGS A wing is a group of multiple small ships that move together in a formation using a single maneuver dial . Each wing consists of one wing leader and two to five wingmates.

The wing leader executes maneuvers normally using a maneuver dial and a movement template, and the wingmates stay in formation with their wing leader by using a wing tool. Each ship in a wing has a specific wing position in the formation assigned by its wing ID card.

Moving Wingmates

When a wingmate moves as part of its activation, its player uses a wing tool to place the ship into the same wing position within the formation relative to its wing leader. The following apply to wingmates:

• Before it moves, a wingmate is treated as revealing the same dial as the wing leader’s dial .

• After it is placed in formation, a wingmate is treated as having fully executed the maneuver on the wing leader’s dial. This includes the speed, color, and bearing of the wing leader’s maneuver.

• After a wingmate is placed on an object it can overlap, it is treated as overlapping that object while moving and resolves the effects of that object.

• If a wingmate’s revealed maneuver is needed, it uses the wing leader’s revealed maneuver.

• If a wingmate cannot be placed in formation because it would overlap another ship, or because it would leave the play area, the wingmate splits from the wing (see Forced Splitting). Then, it returns to its previous position and executes the wing leader’s revealed maneuver (obeying normal overlap rules if necessary). Then that wingmate skips its Perform Action step. See Appendix: Wing Overlap Diagrams.

• If there is potential for a wingmate to overlap another ship when it moves, a player should use a position marker to track the wingmate’s previous position. This practice ensures that the wingmate is returned to the correct position before splitting and executing its maneuver.

Wing Leader Actions

After executing a maneuver, the wing leader performs an action as normal. (DM Edit: This is where there should be something about wingmen getting to follow. . .)

However, certain actions a wing leader can perform have additional effects on the wing: (Again, no mention of what is allowed. Only what is disallowed.)

• After a wing leader performs a SLAM action, each of its wingmates without 󲁊 on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting), and each of its wingmates with 󲁊 on its action bar gains a disarm token.

• After a wing leader performs a Cloak action, each of its wingmates without 󲁅 on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting).

Wingmate Actions

During the Activation Phase, after each wingmate moves, it resolves its Perform Action step as normal. During the Activation Phase and at all other times , a wingmate is limited to the following actions:

Calculate Evade Focus Reinforce Lock

This only talks about the wing following the Leaders DIAL MANEUVER.

No where do I see that Wingmates get to do a free reposition maneuver (BR/Boost) just because the leader did. In fact, BR and Boost are specifically disallowed.

Was this free reposition for wingmates stated in a video? Because it does not seem to be explicitly stated in RAW.

11 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I'm just going to be super remedial here.

What I'm reading is this:

This only talks about the wing following the Leaders DIAL MANEUVER.

No where do I see that Wingmates get to do a free reposition maneuver (BR/Boost) just because the leader did. In fact, BR and Boost are specifically disallowed.

Was this free reposition for wingmates stated in a video? Because it does not seem to be explicitly stated in RAW.

It IS explicitly stated.

Wing leader does his whole activation, movement and actions, then the wingmates are placed in formation using the wing tool. The only things that break formation if the wingmates don't have it is SLAM and Cloak. Wingmates aren't allowed to BR/Boost because that would happen after wing leader activation and they've been moved into formation, and using them then would break formation.

19 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

It IS explicitly stated.

Wing leader does his whole activation, movement and actions, then the wingmates are placed in formation using the wing tool. The only things that break formation if the wingmates don't have it is SLAM and Cloak. Wingmates aren't allowed to BR/Boost because that would happen after wing leader activation and they've been moved into formation, and using them then would break formation.

RAW to me looks like:

Leader dials a move and moves.

Wingmen form up without needing a dial.

Leader takes an action and SLAM or Cloak will break formation.

Wingmen take Actions.

Nothing is ever stated about boosts and barrel rolls.

****

To me, explicitly stated looks more like:

Quote

After executing a maneuver, the wing leader performs an action as normal.

However, certain actions a wing leader can perform have additional effects on the wing:

• If the wing leader performs a boost or barrel roll action, each wingman also performs a boost or barrel roll.

After a wing leader performs a SLAM action, each of its wingmates without 󲁊 on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting), and each of its wingmates with 󲁊 on its action bar gains a disarm token.

• After a wing leader performs a Cloak action, each of its wingmates without 󲁅 on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting).

Without that, I think it's more inferred.

And if that is true, then has each wingman performed his Action and is not allowed to do anything else? Ergo, the wing leader forces the entire wing to choose the same Action?

8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Hmm. To me, explicitly stated looks more like:

Without that, I think it's more inferred.

And it that is true, then has each wingman performed his Action and is not allowed to do anything else? Ergo, the wing leader forces the entire wing to choose the same Action?

You two may be talking past one another.

If Wedge has foils closed and his wingmen have it open, only wedge has boost.

If Wedge does a 4 straight and straight boost, he effectively moved 6.

Then all his wingmen are set up in formation with him, having moved 6, even though they dont have boost. they got a "free boost" even though they cannot boost while in formation, and they still have their action available.

Same deal if Wedge did a 3 hard+Bank Boost- the formation is set up aligned with Wedge, having made a turn only a ship with Boost could have made. (another "free boost")

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

You two may be talking past one another.

If Wedge has foils closed and his wingmen have it open, only wedge has boost.

If Wedge does a 4 straight and straight boost, he effectively moved 6.

Then all his wingmen are set up in formation with him, even though they dont have boost. they got a "free boost" even though they cannot boost while in formation, and they still have their action available.

Same deal if Wedge did a 3 hard+Bank Boost- the formation is set up aligned with Wedge, having made a turn only a ship with Boost could have made. (another "free boost")

Eh, I might just be talking past myself.

I'm considering Movement and Action to be 2 different timing windows. Move-->Form Up, then Action.

But it really is Activation Phase: Move+Action , then Form Up.

Still, it could be more explicitly stated, and include an example like the effects of Afterburners as being legal.

Also, I would have organized the rules to deal with ALL aspects of the leader as a block of text, then the info about the wingmen's moves. Personally, I want to process that data as the blocks and in the order they are presented, which is how I got to where I was thinking.

Lastly, this means a wingman can't voluntarily boost or br out of a wing formation, which also seems artificially weird.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Eh, I might just be talking past myself.

I'm considering Movement and Action to be 2 different timing windows. Move-->Form Up, then Action.

But it really is Activation Phase: Move+Action , then Form Up.

Still, it could be more explicitly stated

It is explicitly stated. Wing leader ACTIVATES AS NORMAL(you know maneuver, then take action, like when you play the regular game). Then the wingmates, one by one, are moved into formation and can perform an action. They are "considered" to have performed the maneuver that's on the dial, but they don't actually perform a maneuver unless they fail to get into formation due to overlapping another ship, they're simply placed into formation wherever the leader is.

1 hour ago, Cerebrawl said:

It is explicitly stated. Wing leader ACTIVATES AS NORMAL(you know maneuver, then take action, like when you play the regular game). Then the wingmates, one by one, are moved into formation and can perform an action. They are "considered" to have performed the maneuver that's on the dial, but they don't actually perform a maneuver unless they fail to get into formation due to overlapping another ship, they're simply placed into formation wherever the leader is.

Yeah, but this slops movement (the choice of the dial) together with choosing an action (that may or may not cause the ship to reposition).

And above, even you keep only talking about the maneuver, which is the dial only, unless my terminology is mistaken. So then I get confused about the notion of actions.

Wings get the benefit of any boosts/barrel rolls performed by their Wing Leader, and can still perform their normal action. This is balanced by the structure of the wing. Anything that forces a ship to split from a wing while they don't have a dial assigned (basically everything after the Planning step and before the Engagement step), forces the affected ships to perform a 2-straight at the end of the activation phase, skip their Perform Action step, AND receive one stress token. Those are some serious penalties that will usually result in a dead ship.

EDIT: Blocked wing movements look like they don't force the stress token, but do still skip the Perform Action step.

I think the resolution here is actually under the splitting and joining wing section. As I recall there's a couple notes in there about when you split? Don't have the book in front of me. I'd it doesn't say you split if the leader performs an action... Should be good.

Though it could use some more verbage I think too. Like an FAQ.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, but this slops movement (the choice of the dial) together with choosing an action (that may or may not cause the ship to reposition).

And above, even you keep only talking about the maneuver, which is the dial only, unless my terminology is mistaken. So then I get confused about the notion of actions.

An activation is movement and action yes. The leader does a FULL activation, and then the wingmates, in order, do theirs, by first being placed into formation with the leader and then performing an action. It plays just like the regular game, except that wingmates do not maneuver separately, and are just placed in formation. The leader can reposition, double reposition, etc, and everyone else will just be assumed to have followed along, without any check if they could, nor used up their actions to do it. This is a streamlining feature, so that Epic games do not take 4+ hours to play. I don't know how many times we have to explain this to you. It's also how Vader can drag TIE/In along with him even though they can't maneuver like he can. It does not matter how much the leader repositions themselves, the wingmates are along for the ride.

The only actions that break this up is SLAM and Cloak, if the wingmates do not have it, and the leader performs them. They are explicitly called out as the only exceptions.

On 11/29/2019 at 8:53 AM, heychadwick said:

Jonus is also a good Wing leader. I can see 3 or even 4 (from a Gozanti) being in a wing with him.

Remember that a ships that are in reserve it that begin the game docked cannot be in a wing. So if they are docked to a Gozanti, that can't pop out and form up in a wing.

On 11/29/2019 at 11:54 AM, ficklegreendice said:

Well, since boost is apparently useful, Resistance is probably gonna be well off Fielding an a-WING

especially since they can stack heroic and marksmanship, with optics to guarantee crits!

Not a bad idea, so long as you remember that the Resistance A-wing wingmates can't rotate their turrets while in the wing, so it does change how they fly a little bit.

Oh btw, wing movement can make wingmates do some really funky movements. What happens in a 5 wide formation when a leader just does a 1 hard? One edge of the wing will do something like a 3 hard, the other edge of the wing will be doing something like a reverse 2 hard.

For the sake of clarity (and discussion), let's say we have the following wing:

• Baron of the Empire
  • Agent of the Empire
  • Daredevil
• 5x Academy Pilots

A couple of activation scenarios come to mind (assuming my brain is thinking straight):

Using standard boost action:

1. Baron of the Empire moves straight 5
2. Baron of the Empire uses boost as action
3. Baron of the Empire finishes its activation
4. All 5 Academy Pilots move to their wing location (thus getting a free Boost even though it was not on their action bar)
5. All 5 Academy Pilots get an action (except Barrel Roll)

Using Daredevil:

1. Baron of the Empire moves straight 5
2. Baron of the Empire uses boost as action, but then it converts it to a red action using the hard 1 turn template thanks to Daredevil
3. Baron of the Empire finishes its activation
4. All 5 Academy Pilots move to their wing location (thus getting a free Boost and a free Daredevil effect, the Empire is really training new recruits quite well)
5. All 5 Academy Pilots get an action (except Barrel Roll). The rules do not state whether they inherit the red action of the wing leader, thus I assume they get to do their regular action ( on top of the free boost + free Daredevil )

It's a good day to be an Academy Pilot it seems. Not sure how to interpret all this without actually testing, but it looks like the wingmen get way too many benefits.

Thoughts?

54 minutes ago, player3137305 said:

It's a good day to be an Academy Pilot it seems. Not sure how to interpret all this without actually testing, but it looks like the wingmen get way too many benefits.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I thought the same thing, but if the devs want people to play Epic, and the biggest complaint is that it takes too long, making wings really enticing may be intentional. Gets more people to try out big games.

1 hour ago, player3137305 said:

Thoughts?

A. All that seems pretty out of hand.

B. The fact that no one is sure only goes back to my initial comment that wing rules aren't quite clear enough yet.

38 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Yeah, I thought the same thing, but if the devs want people to play Epic, and the biggest complaint is that it takes too long, making wings really enticing may be intentional. Gets more people to try out big games.

Although I'd prefer not to let my favorite version of the game get morbidly stupid just to attract more players.

Some things are pretty weird just cuz. Like @Cerebral points out, a 1 turn makes some wingmen go backwards!!

Personally, I'm beginning to think that wing leaders are going to be able to pass on too many powers. And some of it is going to end up being a little nonsensical.

Eh, too early to tell, I suppose.

Hey, is it really intended that ships like Ywings don't get to turn their turret if they're a wingman?

I also assume that since it says : "During the Activation Phase and at all other times, a wingmate is limited to the following actions:"

The limited part means that you don't gain the ability to calculate if you don't have it right? You're just limited to these options of your normal choices.

Does this also mean a wingman cannot repair a damage card?

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hey, is it really intended that ships like Ywings don't get to turn their turret if they're a wingman?

I also assume that since it says : "During the Activation Phase and at all other times, a wingmate is limited to the following actions:"

The limited part means that you don't gain the ability to calculate if you don't have it right? You're just limited to these options of your normal choices.

Does this also mean a wingman cannot repair a damage card?

Wow. Those are a lot of really good questions.

No idea, unfortunately.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Wow. Those are a lot of really good questions.

No idea, unfortunately.

I've reposted into the Rules Forum. But if you hear anything. I'd like to know.

This will probably need fAQ clarification. But thankfully, everything else mostly works well!

15 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hey, is it really intended that ships like Ywings don't get to turn their turret if they're a wingman?

I also assume that since it says : "During the Activation Phase and at all other times, a wingmate is limited to the following actions:"

The limited part means that you don't gain the ability to calculate if you don't have it right? You're just limited to these options of your normal choices.

Does this also mean a wingman cannot repair a damage card?

Correct on all 3 counts. On one hand it renders some of the astromechs and any upgrades that add actions other than those listed in that section nearly useless for wingmates (still useable while they are split from the wing), on the other hand it balances out how much wingmates can end up moving during their activation while they are in formation.

Wings are huge fun. They allow for some crazy movement but nothing that seems out of balance. The restrictions they have are pretty big and stop all manner of cute adjustment for block and flank and what have you.

Sure, you can SNR boost a Collision Detector Inq across the field with a bunch of focussed TIEs in tow, but you're not really adding power to what they can do, you're just massively simplifying the way they get were they're going.

Unlike standard 200pt games, you're not winning or losing based on tight manoeuvre contests, where access to boost here or roll there means an ace just arc dodged his main opponent and is now on easy street.

Keep it simple and they work just great. Put too many tricks and points in it and imma priority squash it with a metric ton of dice.

Also, you don't actually have to use a wing. I'm pretty sure the only disadvantage you'll be at is time based rather than dial, template or dice.

31 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Also, you don't actually have to use a wing. I'm pretty sure the only disadvantage you'll be at is time based rather than dial, template or dice.

Well, your expensive named pilots are going to be much more easily annihilated without a wing escort, but yeah, mostly.

Wings are a convenience/time saver feature. There are a few other advantages too, besides shared repositions, being able to reposition before placing wingmates helps clear obstacles, and it makes formation flying so much easier just in general. You can fly a tighter formation without risking self-bumps.

Seems like wings could be handy for lower-initiative ordnance carriers. Higher Init one moves, drags the squad of low-generics with. They take locks as if they'd moved at high Init.

12 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Oh btw, wing movement can make wingmates do some really funky movements. What happens in a 5 wide formation when a leader just does a 1 hard? One edge of the wing will do something like a 3 hard, the other edge of the wing will be doing something like a reverse 2 hard.

I don't understand this, five wide?. Currently a wing can only be three ships wide at minimum and maximum. If the leader does a three hard, the inside pivot will basically just rotate. If the leader does a one hard, the inside pivot will basically reverse one tight...ish. honestly it's not much different than the &@#$ TIE phantom backing up with a cloak. I just interpret it as that guy doing a loop de loop in place.

Not that wing movent isn't weird. Fun thing I found in last game was that unless the wing loses one of it's flanks, it's impossible for the leader to do a one hard into Barrell roll back towards the formation, since the formation is actually in the way still.

Overall I really like it as a direction for the game mode. It gives me this sense that a leader can encourage a wing to do crazy things and with the group working together they can accomplish more. When the direction of the squad is dictated by the leader the rest can just follow and 'focus' on other things. The leader being a higher initiative, and conferring that to the lower pilots, is like him/her saying "wait, steady, not yet, stay with me, NOW!" Especially on things like target locks. Basically I don't see it as just an expediting factor, but also a experience modifier.

5 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Keep it simple and they work just great. Put too many tricks and points in it and imma priority squash it with a metric ton of dice.

Also, you don't actually have to use a wing. I'm pretty sure the only disadvantage you'll be at is time based rather than dial, template or dice.

So, that brings up the question for me of how many ship are folks running in a wing? 3? 6? Are all your small ships starting in wings then breaking up?

As for the second part, time has never been a factor for me in Epic games. I expect to play a long time when I sit down. But I like some of the new ideas they bring to the game, like Ace Guards.