But how do you handle it in your games?

I essentially cut my teeth on 1st & 2nd ed Shadowrun as well as early editions of Cyberpunk, which handled hacking and computer infiltration very well.

In DH i'm a bit stuck with how to handle it however, other than a few tech use rolls, which seems a bit dry. I saw that some one used something akin to the Possession rules, and i was wondering how others have handled the situation if its come up in your games.

Whilst the Tech-Use rolls do kind of cover it it just doesnt feel right to me, not really intuitive or evocative and other than doing it as a mostly spoken and all but one or two dice rolls (the essential bits) we've not done anything else about it in our games thus far.

Has it come up in your games? how'd you deal with it?

Got some House Rules you use for it? Care to share?

I encourage a wider route to it, at least in my mind. 'Communing' with a Machine Spirit means you present the 'subject to be hacked' as a quintessential NPC. Except it requires a certain fudging of the rules in that sense. There are many routes to 'hacking':

- Direct coding (requires a hefty amount of Speak Language, Tech Use, Scholastic Lore (Cryptology/Numerology), Secret Tongue and such to even become 'feasible' for players)

- Communion & persuations, using the likes of Logic, Tech Use, Trade (Technomat [or other]) as social skills, Security as a half-way measure, whilst also using Charm, Deceive, Blather and such as Int (or WP [or even just Fel, depending on the MS itself]) based skills.

- Actual straight roleplaying it. Create puzzles, demonstrate the merit of the solutions, convince the Machine Spirit, let the players resolve it as they feel their characters actually could.

In terms of simple hacking, it's pure and (unfortunately) simple skill tests. As the first point above, there's a ludicrous amount of skills you'd actually need to be a really good *creative* hacker, especially when it comes to four-hundredth century computing. Logic, Tech Use and languages are obviously the most important ones, but there's many other avenues which open it up.

If I don't think the hacking is a terribly important feature of the game (i.e. if there's no particular bonuses to be had from the rest of the scenario adding into it) then I might be very tempted to simply put Security (Int) as an equivalent of hacking, it's nice and straight forward. If folks wanted it in depth, I'd use the above. Presuming it's not an important focus: Security (Int) seems straight forward enough.

The inherant 'security' of a 40K database is the simple fact that-

A: You need to know how to "log on", bearing in mind the average 40K citizen is at best a profoundly ignorant son of a ***** that seems to solve most problems given to them by picking heavy things up and putting them down again, digging a hole and hitting the problem with something hard. Ok so thats something of an exaggeration, but they're fairly thick when it comes to machines actual working processes... the ad-mech make quite sure of it.

B: Assuming it has information worth a ****, its probably encrypted rather than a password, so even if you did fumble your way in there, you are now the proud owner of something which makes absolutely no sense until its decrypted! Encryption is nasty stuff to manually try and figure out normally, it could be completely fiendish if something like being bound to the DNA code of the hereditary owner(s) of such information.

C: Lots of stuff is still hard-copy for a multitude of reasons, a decent skill in safe-cracking and lock picking will probably serve you well.

This isn't Shadowrun.

Your notions regarding hacking simply don't apply to the 40k universe. The only character who could even begin to do something resembling hacking would be a Techpriest, and even then it's a bit off. First off there aren't computer networks in 40k. If you want data off a computer you're going to have to physically interact with it. If it contains secure data then you'll likely have to confirm that you are a proper user which will most likely involve some kind of physical confirmation (ie genetic or biometric). If it uses a password you'll simply have to guess it because there is no universal computer language that will allow you to hack it.

Like I said, this isn't Shadowrun.

Atheosis said:

it may not be like shadowrun (never played it so im not knowledgeble) but i know for a fact people other than tech priests hack into computers, in Dan Abnett's Ravenor Carl Thonious hacks into the main administratum computer core of an entire planet to make fake I.D.s and someone else manages to hack into a Rogue Trader's computer core to set down a kill command trap for the ship. for the inquisition the mysteries of tech arent that mysterious, there are those skilled in how machines work and know how to manipulate and even reprogram them, its just very uncommon.

ThenDoctor said:

As I recall he had to physically interact with the computer and stole someone's identity. Besides, Abnett is well known for mishandling the 40k tech issue. He tends to treat it a little bit too much like a standard sci-fi setting (I still love his writing mind you).

The main point I was trying to make was that preconceptions based off of Shadowrun are just completely off in the context of 40k. Even if you take the Abnett approach, hacking is not a common thing and can only be done by directly interfacing with a system.

Without the Tech Use skill no one is going to have a chance at hacking, but even so I'd say a non Tech Priest is going to suffer a negative.

If you want to make it interesting for players, here is an idea. Have the person committing the act roll his appropriate skill and determine the number of successes he receives - anyone else with the skill who aids him adds +10 to his chance of success.

Now pick a logic puzzle, riddle or brain teaser from a sight such as this: www.brainbashers.com/logic.asp

For succeeding his check the pc gets one chance to solve the puzzle; for each 10 points by which he succeeded he gets another chance. Thus, if a character succeeds his check by 30 he receives 4 chances to get the answer. ( one initially, plus the benefits for levels of success) Alternately you can have a time limit (2-5 minutes probably) which increases by another 2 minutes for each degree of success. (so the above person would have 2-5 minutes, plus an additional 6 for 3 degrees of success) If using the first method, only the person who made the check and anyone who assisted with the skill test may discuss the answer - in the latter you can let the entire group discuss the answer but only give them the once chance to get it right. (or, you could combine the two options, whatever seems it would work the best and be most fun)

This does mean the player has to use his own brains to solve the problem in the end - which can sometimes be a drag - but it does grant benefits for how well he makes his skill check. You might also offer a single clue for every fate point the hacker spends to increase his chances.

In this way it is better than a die roll, more interactive for everyone, but still takes your character's skill check into account.

Xisor:

Some excellent ideas there, i forget what level TP's get Security at, but its one i've supplemented for a few skill checks already in game when the isuues arised.

MKX:

Also theres the whole quasi-steampunk attitude of some of the setting material, so most deffinately on the safecracking/lock picking style skill uses just to access the computer itself, not much of this "press the button, wait 30 seconds for the logo and off you go" that we have in many systems that involve hacking in most ways

Atheosis:

Oh i'm well aware that this isnt shadowrun or any of its contemporaries, but even in many of them you still have to access the building, and often The very computer due to it not being on suitably linked or attatched in some manner networks. However, as others have mentioned, there is precedent in the novels of such things happening, yes not every one considers the novels to be cannon, but they're sanctioned by GW which means they Are part of the setting/fluff regardless of how much you do or dont like it, there was quite a lot of negative responses to the recent revamp (if you'll excuse the pun) of the Blood Angels simply because a certain writer or editor worked on the codex, it's Still legal GW sanctioned stuff like the novels and we all have to like it, lump it or bugger off else where and play an older version of the game.

ThenDoctor:

Some excellent points there

Atheosis: (again)

Stole some one elses ID, grafted it on to a new ID with a good measure of success though he could have rolled better and even says he could have done a better job if he had more time if i recall rightly.

And if you actually read the OP you'll note that i ask how other people handle the situation, not a whole "why cant we do it crycrycry" post.

JackofTears:

It's got Tears in it, how could i not like that name

An excellent site there, and some really good advice, deffinately the sort of thing i was after when it boils down to it

That's an interesting perspective Velveteaters. I'm more inclined to conclude that, considering the wide-spread contradictions in the lore, you have to pick and choose what is part of your version of 40k. Hacking, for the most part, really isn't a part of it. There are certain exceptions, but I would definitely say it shouldn't come up very often. If and when it does, I tend to feel a Tech Use check is all you need. In Shadowrun, with the heavy emphasis on hacking it made sense to have a very involved system, but that doesn't apply to 40k. Looking at those few examples of it in the novels, you will notice that the whole process is skimmed over rather than focused on in any detail.

Your notions regarding hacking simply don't apply to the 40k universe. The only character who could even begin to do something resembling hacking would be a Techpriest, and even then it's a bit off. First off there aren't computer networks in 40k. If you want data off a computer you're going to have to physically interact with it. If it contains secure data then you'll likely have to confirm that you are a proper user which will most likely involve some kind of physical confirmation (ie genetic or biometric). If it uses a password you'll simply have to guess it because there is no universal computer language that will allow you to hack it.

Um... for the most part of this, I'd like to add your standard "depending on the planet". A forge world, for example, will most definitely have a computer network, though it's quite probably a little more dedicated than modern-day internet. As for the universal computer language (hell, I wish we'd have one...): Don't you think the Mechanicus would be pretty big on standardization with their hallowed ancient tech?

Of course, the only ones doing any hacking would be techpriests (who wouldn't so much "hack" as "convince the machine-spirit that special circumstances apply that make it justifiable for them to have access to data") and scum and adepts bordering on heretek.

Finally, there already are several hacking aids mentioned in the DH books: The Radical's Handbook had a one-use virus that is capable of shredding most low-security systems, the Logicians in DotDG have this neat little berserker thorn that makes servitors run amok by corrupting their programming and the Schism is itself a virus.

Remember the Tech-Priest can have Electro Grafts that allow them to connect to a machine with a tech use roll or so. The thing is that know that you are connected, you may chat with the machine spirit of that artifact. I will recommend you to design a riddle and if the tech priest solves it, he may deceive/hack the system. After all, hacking is about breaking security, so try that and it may give you a nice storyline.

Have fun and keep rolling!!!

Cifer said:

They do. It's called binary. Given that most Tech-Priests speak binary (thanks to their implants), it's less of an issue for them than it is for others.

Id simply use the Intrusion spirit as described in radicals handbook to aid the "hack" in addition the security skill as it does mention the ability to bypass certain measures and such. Also a note for "convincing the machine spirit"...there is a official adventure for rogue trader that has a part where you specifically have to convince a machine spirit of the core onboard a ship to do as you want once you bring it back online. the name of the adventure is "Forsaken Bounty"(pg. 20-21 titled Awakening the machine spirit ) This details directly how bypassing standard security measures can go in game. Hope that helps

Tech-Use is literally all you need. But if by "hacking" you mean remotely accessing a system, reprogramming it in any way or repurposing it to do something that it wasn't built to do, that's all extremely unlikely.

As a rule there is little or no "hacking" as we understand it in the 40K setting. It's often suggested that wide-reaching cogitator networks exist on certain Imperial words, specifically forge worlds and the extremely rare and precious "civilized" worlds, but the thing to remember is they are cogitators, not computers. Cogitators work, well, somehow. We're not sure how all those cogs, skulls and gears translate into processing power, but cogitators are very limited in the scope of their abilities, they're powerful devices that somehow exceed the processing and storage abilities of a modern PC, but are nowhere near as flexible, there's little in the way of software in a cogitator, or fancy heretek like "wireless" networks. How can the data djinn travel to the data loom and return with the information requested if there's no cables at least the width of your arm for them to walk through?

Ultimately it's up to the GM to decide what a target system is capable of, but typically the only thing you can get out of gaining access to a cogitator is information or control of whatever mono-task function the cogitator was designed for, you can't repurpose a cogitator designed to function as a terminal to a data-loom to remotely unlock security doors in the complex you're infiltrating, for example (though you may be able to acquire the security codes from the looms, of course!) at least not without a lot of physical rebuilding of the cogitator.

In most cases, "hacking" is not useful, it's not an omni tool like in Shadowrun with many different facets and applications, it's a very small part of what a Tech-Priest does. You can use "hacking" to substitute in your Tech-Use skill instead of whatever Investigation skill would normally apply if you're attempting to gather information from a cogitator, you can use "hacking" to bypass an electronically locked door with Tech-Use instead of Security (though Security can still be used, of course), you can "hack" a servitor if it has a port to jack into or has been programmed with an understanding of binary and the ears to recieve such commands.

Just remember that cogitators rarely have any kind of remote access capability and are often mono-tasked machines. More complex cogitators exist, but are extremely rare and precious. People besides the Mechanicus don't typically keep sensitive information on cogitators when inkquill and parchment works just fine, not to mention that cogitators are rare, expensive and require maintenance by Tech Priests, which means that the Mechanicus knows exactly what's stored in the cogitator and the Tech Priesthood of Mars is not an organization you want to be blackmailed by. Ultimately it's up to the GM to determine how sophisticated and far-reaching a target system is if the PC's are lucky enough to be operating on a civilized world with a planetary cogitation network, or unlucky enough to be operating on a Forge World.

But that's all just part of the charm of the setting, a planetary system home to a technologically sophisticated super democracy with a global cogitation network, where the population is well-educated, happy, free of Chaos worship and teach an unusually enlightened brand of the Imperial Creed, is sure to be the next system on the trade route from a feudal dung heap administrated by a small Imperial government masquerading as divine avatars of the Sun-Empreror.

I liked that tidbit of plot idea you gave Azraiel about the mechanicus blackmailing a wealthy connected prominent citizen due to data found on a stored/hidden cogitator < >..sounds like a BEAUTIFUL plot idea for a campaign to be built around..so i wanted to say thank you Azraiel. You just gave me a piece of plot i was wracking my head to consider for a good devious mechanicus add-in subplot to an existing/upcoming session to further muddy the water for my investigative group to figure out

Just like to say thanks again for all the great input

Azraiel said:

Actually, wireless data networks appear in the novels Titanicus and Mechanicum, as part of the infrastructure of some Forge Worlds. The Noosphere, as it's called, essentially removes the necessity of a physical end-user interface for the world's cogitators - instead, tech-priests and others of significance are given implants that allow them to perceive and commune with the otherwise-invisible and intangible streams of raw data that swirl about the forge-cities. Non-mechanicus personnel on such worlds struggle to comprehend the way that these tech-priests see the world around them.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The Noosphere was a unique prototype in Mechanicum as I recall, and I would say it's rather likely it didn't survive the war on Mars. Haven't read Titanicus so I can't really comment on that. I would say that many Forgeworlds do in fact have cogitator networks of a sort, I'm just hesitant to treat them like a computer network as we know them.

It is mentioned in Titanicus repeatedly, however it is strongly implied that the noosphere was restricted to the Mechanicus and jealously guarded, which would be typical Mechanicus behaviour, so it's usefulness in a Dark Heresy investigation would be extremely limited, to say the least.

Cobramax76 said:

You're welcome, glad my fevered ranting did some good!

The fact that many AdMech things at least have wireless connection ports also forms a major part of the danger posed by a Schism from Creatures Anathema.