Planning to throw a Force User with the force power “Move” (version of Suljo Warde) at my PCs for the first time since we have been playing in March.

Two of the players are competitive people (they are able to separate in game from Out of game tension). Despite my warnings (IE: nemesis character will get two attacks per round ala optional rules for nemesis characters), they tend to get very emotional if they start feeling they will die or lose).

Suljo Warde’s move description states that he is able to move objects up to silhouette 2 and up to long range. Difficulty is the silhouette of the object damage times 10...(2 purpled)

They are a pretty formidable group...having already defeated Maul and Blaise Zirkon...

i plan to go all out against them but they will get emotional if I chuck an object doing 20 damage to one of them

are there house rules you guys incorporate to make it more diff for nemesis characters to hurt PCs with move and vice versa? ( the counselor is planning to invest in move. I already told them they will be able to use the power on minions and rivals with no problem. Against nemesis NPCs it will be different) There is the resilience opposed check which I use if a target uses move on the player themselves...

thanks in advance

First the simple answer: If you want to avoid doing a ton of damage to the PCs by throwing a sil 2 object at them... just don't throw a sil 2 object at them?

As far as mitigating damage, if the PCs have the Move power (with the requisite upgrades etc.) you could let them make an opposed Discipline check with Boost and Setback for power differences to throw it aside or hold it in place. Maybe with Success and Triumph they manage to throw it back at the opponent. If you allow their opponents to do the same thing, it'll discourage them from attempting to one-shot your Nemesis characters. Think of it like Sidious throwing senatorial pods at Yoda in Ep 3.

That doesn't help you though, because it seems from your post that neither of them have the Move force power. In that case, possibly allow a Coordination/Vigilance check to dodge out of the way or reduce damage. Perhaps the Difficulty should be based on the number of Success on the attack roll, and the attacker can spend Triumph/3 Advantage to upgrade the difficulty to escape.

56 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

First the simple answer: If you want to avoid doing a ton of damage to the PCs by throwing a sil 2 object at them... just don't throw a sil 2 object at them?

As far as mitigating damage, if the PCs have the Move power (with the requisite upgrades etc.) you could let them make an opposed Discipline check with Boost and Setback for power differences to throw it aside or hold it in place. Maybe with Success and Triumph they manage to throw it back at the opponent. If you allow their opponents to do the same thing, it'll discourage them from attempting to one-shot your Nemesis characters. Think of it like Sidious throwing senatorial pods at Yoda in Ep 3.

That doesn't help you though, because it seems from your post that neither of them have the Move force power. In that case, possibly allow a Coordination/Vigilance check to dodge out of the way or reduce damage. Perhaps the Difficulty should be based on the number of Success on the attack roll, and the attacker can spend Triumph/3 Advantage to upgrade the difficulty to escape.

I like the idea of making the difficulty for an object being thrown via move vs a coordination/athletics/Vigilance check. IE: Warde is rolling 3Y/1G vs a characters coordination/athletics/vigilance check as opposed to difficulty being the sil of the object. This also goes for the PCs vs. a Nemesis character.

Another question: Do you guys allow the aim maneuver to be used on a Move Object check?

25 minutes ago, Sincereagape said:

Another question: Do you guys allow the aim maneuver to be used on a Move Object check?

Why not? It makes perfect sense to, and there is nothing (so far as I am aware) in the rules that says it doesn't apply. It simply says "attacks" so it would seem to apply.

5 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

Suljo Warde’s move description states that he is able to move objects up to silhouette 2 and up to long range. Difficulty is the silhouette of the object damage times 10...(2 purpled).

i plan to go all out against them but they will get emotional if I chuck an object doing 20 damage to one of them

are there house rules you guys incorporate to make it more diff for nemesis characters to hurt PCs with move and vice versa? ( the counselor is planning to invest in move. I already told them they will be able to use the power on minions and rivals with no problem. Against nemesis NPCs it will be different) There is the resilience opposed check which I use if a target uses move on the player themselves...

thanks in advance.

There's really not a house rule per se, though do note that Suljo has the option throw around objects of silhouette 2. There's nothing saying he has to throw something that big every round, or even at all. I would probably stick to him hurling around silhouette 1 objects for 10+successes damage, which is probably plenty unless the majority of your PCs have exceptionally high (8 or higher) soak values. Save the hurling of something silhouette 2 for a desperation attack on his part, probably if he's over half his total wound threshold, and aim the attack at either the burliest PC (i.e. the one with the highest soak) or the one that's dished out the most damage to him that round.

I should note that I do have a somewhat house-ruled version of the Move power that's been decently play-tested at this point, though the main change is that the basic power includes the option to hurl objects, with the overall difficulty for hurling objects being one higher (Sil 0 = Easy diff, Sil 1 = Average diff, Sil 2 = Hard diff, etc) up to the max of five purple dice, so the max silhouette that can be thrown is a 4 (barring the "impossible difficulty" rules). There's a few other tweaks, but their not really germane to the question asked.

As for your other question (using Aim in conjunction with hurling an object), since per the power's full text hurling an object is considered a ranged combat check (with the sole exception of setting the base difficulty), then the user is free to spend a maneuver (or two) to Aim prior to lobbing the object at their intended target.

4 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

are there house rules you guys incorporate to make it more diff for nemesis characters to hurt PCs with move and vice versa?

I have yet to see in the media Force users throwing objects larger than Silhouette 1*, so if you need a rationale not to go higher, that's a pretty good one. Or you can scale the damage per Silhouette back a bit...there no inherent reason FFG chose "10" as the number other than it's nice and round and easy to do math with. Scale it back to 5-8 per Sil, and it's still a threat without being devastating (assuming they have Soaks of 5+ and a few investments in Toughened). Not knowing your PCs, but I'd go 7 or 8...it's a Nemesis after all, and their attack has to mean something and give the PCs pause.

Note that you can use "Auto-fire" if the Force user has the Magnitude upgrades. So if you reduce the damage, you can still spread it out to make the Nemesis more dangerous.

Also keep in mind if you leave it alone, eventually one of the PCs will get all the upgrades and want to do 40 damage per throw...and if they're cool dishing that out they'll have to be cool taking it. (That's a kind of "Force Unleashed" style of play I don't like, it's one of the many things I despise about the Move power, so I rewrote it entirely.)

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* the exception might be the Sidious/Yoda fight, where those pods could count as Silhouette 2. But that's top level end-of-story stuff which probably needs a Signature Ability level of investment to rationalize.

2 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

I like the idea of making the difficulty for an object being thrown via move vs a coordination/athletics/Vigilance check.

This is just going to reduce the odds of being hit. It's not going to reduce damage in a meaningful way because most PCs can't handle 20 damage in a single hit, and the ones that can will be nearly out. So whether it's 21 damage (20 + minimal success) or 24 damage (20 + decent success because it's not contested) is irrelevant.

I'm also not a fan of introducing a "dodge" roll. It slows things down at the table, and having a special step for this one case feels arbitrary.

5 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

Two of the players are competitive people (they are able to separate in game from Out of game tension). Despite my warnings (IE: nemesis character will get two attacks per round ala optional rules for nemesis characters), they tend to get very emotional if they start feeling they will die or lose).

Just a note about this, not sure if you have run Nemeses before, but they can be a source of major disappointment. Even if you give them 2 attacks (which I'm not a fan of, because it's arbitrary), it's not enough. I don't know the size of your party, but if it's 3 or 4 and they've already handled someone like "Maul", then this guy is burnt toast. I've had better luck making sure that each PC has a Nemesis-level challenge, but that doesn't mean they all have to gang up on one guy. In E6, Luke's Nemesis challenge was the Emperor and Vader (and much of that was a social contest); Leia's and Han's was taking out "a whole legion of the finest troops" and blowing up the shield; Lando's was coordinating the resistance until there was an opening, then hitting the reactor.

If you want a Nemesis to be able to handle multiple PCs, they either need to be an animal with sweeping attacks, or a Force user with high level Bind to keep as many in the party under control as possible. But I think it's more effective to make the Nemesis NPC just one of the challenges the PCs need to overcome. This allows you to scale things more tightly.

And for Aim, I third that...no reason not to allow it, you have to spend a Maneuver, which is a valuable piece of the action currency.

I've nerfed Move very heavily in my game. Actually, you know what? Let me just repost my rant that I posted on Reddit a couple days ago.

Ahem:

Move is badly designed, and overpowered. There, I said it. But let's keep some perspective: Move was published in Edge of the Empire, 2 years before Force and Destiny. While I'm sure they had many of the Force Powers already sketched out, they were far from done. It's also important to note that when move was released, the maximum Force Rating you could get was 2.

Move has the highest damage output of any power in the game. Look around whatever room you're in, and I bet you can find at least one object of Silhouette 2 (speederbikes are the silhouette 2, for example). Here in my living room I have a big heavy table and a TV stand, and a refrigerator in the kitchen. At a difficulty of 2, any one of those now deals as much damage as a missile tube. Look at that again. A MISSILE TUBE! Look through your book, and look at how much health the "dangerous" enemies have. Imperial Assassin: Soak 3, Wounds 18 for 21. Two successes on that one roll and he's out. Imperial Royal Guard: two successes. Fallen Master: Three successes. If they manage to find a dump truck, the damage ramps up to 30. Yes, the difficulty goes up, but no, that's not a solution. It's one roll that wins the encounter. Remember, this is for two Force Pips and some purchased upgrades. I don't know about y'all, but I hate "I Win" buttons in my games.

Compare this to Unleash, the most iconic "Master of the Dark Side, I'm Gonna Mess You Up" power. Requires FR 3 just to buy it. Assuming a generous Willpower of 5, and all the Strength upgrades, those two Force Pips would deal out 5 damage. Okay, ya got me, you have FR 3, spend that third pip to activate all four Strength Upgrades. Now it's 9. Oh, your Force Rating is even higher? Awesome. You need six pips just to hit 21 base damage.

A lot of people jump through a lot of hoops to "balance" the power, but they're really not solutions. "It will cause Conflict!" These guys should be taking Conflict every session. "It will attract the attention of Inquisitors!" People get hit by landspeeders all the time. Sometimes by buses and dump trucks. People standing around saying, "How did that car suddenly slide like that?" is going to attract a lot less attention than some dude shooting lightning out of his hands, or shooting a missile tube around. "The same trick can be used against the PCs," "There isn't always a car around," so on and so forth, but none of these address the actual problem. The answer to unbalanced baloney is NOT more baloney! If my players ask, "Is there a dump truck around?" I want to say "Heck yeah there is!" because I want to see where this is going. I don't want to roll my eyes and say, "No, because I know you're just going to try and smash the Inquisitor for 30 damage."

What I'm doing at my table is cutting out two of the Strength upgrades. Hurl now does 5 Damage regardless of silhouette, and each Strength upgrade can be used to either increase the silhouette OR increase damage by 1. So, if you have both Strength upgrades, a second pip will bring you to 7 base damage, while a third will bring you to 9. "But Grand Falloon! You've just made Move a terrible attack power!" I know! That's because Move is so much better as a utility power! Seriously, if you removed the Hurl upgrade entirely, you would still have one of the most versatile abilities in the game. Disarm an entire squad of Stormtroopers, pick locks or hack computer consoles without touching them. Use that dump truck to create cover or block an alleyway while you make your escape. If you remove "smash him for 20 damage" as an option, your players will have to get a bit more creative with how they use the power, and that just makes it better.

7 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

you remove "smash him for 20 damage" as an option, your players will have to get a bit more creative with how they use the power, and that just makes it better.

So much this!

This is what the game should be about.

Thanks for the information. The plan is to gather as many options and ideas as possible and then present them to the group so we can decide what works for us. The GM will have final day and the road goes both ways meaning nemesis characters may use the same rules against them.

@The Grand Falloon brings up some great points on how the move power was created when FR 2 was the max and prior to the release of FaD.