Hard, unbending rules that state X is absolutely always positive or negative, no exceptions, no matter what the situation is, is unworkable in most RPGs. It's especially unworkable in narrative RPGs.
The (Over?)power of Influence
3 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:Hard, unbending rules that state X is absolutely always positive or negative, no exceptions, no matter what the situation is, is unworkable in most RPGs. It's especially unworkable in narrative RPGs.
Not necessarily. What we're talking about is emotional states, not outcomes. The Force is very black and white about things like this. It's canon, not an RPG mechanic. Anger, Fear, Aggression, Hate, canonically, these are negative emotions that fuel, and are fueled by the Dark Side. As such, a Force user must call upon the Dark Side to instill those emotions in another. By contrast, love, happiness, friendliness, etc,are canonically positive emotions, which fuel, and are fueled by, the Light Side. As such, those can only be instilled into another through Light Side pips. The rule was set up that way to match the canon .
Guys, please don't clone the Armor House Rule thread. Tramp is pretty much right on the RAW rules with a stringent, literal interpretation, but each table is going to handle it differently, with different justifications for why.
Where Tramp is wrong is that it doesn't call out specific skills, which leaves the door open for justifications to use Charm with dark pips or Coercion with light pips. There is a lot of wiggle room within the interpretation of rolls and skills.
Example: Jar-Jar Ranged (Heavy)
Player: Meesa wanna pick up the droid's blaster with a maneuver and shoot at the minion group of droids with an action
GM: Easy difficulty
Player: I'll flip a DP to upgrade the attack [rolls a Triumph and 3 success]. I'll spend the Triumph on a crit.
GM: Okay, one of the droids was already badly damaged, so with the crit you take out three.
Player: Jar-Jar gets his foot stuck in a damaged battle droid, and as he tries to shake it off, the droid's blaster fires, taking out three of the approaching battle droids.
44 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:I'm well aware of that, but it doesn't say you can't use certain pips with certain skills. There IS a talent for the Force Sensitive Exile in EotE that has that ruling, and I think a lot of us who started with that book kinda crossed the two over a little. I certainly did.
However, a GM is well within his rights to demand an explanation as to why certain pips should be allowed for certain skills. Dark pips on a Charm check could be used to generate list or a desire for power (Palpatine perhaps?), while Light ones could be used on a Coercion check to play "good cop," telling the target, "It doesn't have to go this way."
No. But it does state what kind of emotions you can use. And charm tends to be about positive emotions. I would say what Palpatine is doing is yes creating Coveting not desire. and is being deceptive. making them think they are getting what they want.
My point is that there is no place in the Influence power description, in any sidebar or anything , where it specifically states that light pips can't be used on a Coercion check. So no, it is not RAW. A lot of people have some memory of it being explicitly stated, but that only occurs in the Overwhelm Emotions talent.
I have to say, though, looking back over the Overwhelm Emotions talent, it doesn't work like any other talent or power upgrade I've seen. This is probably because EotE was a wild, lawless time, and the use of the Force Die wasn't quite so established as it was in F&D.
With Overwhelm Emotions, there's no Destiny Point flip, there's no Strain. You don't even get to choose whether to use the pips generated. They just happen (you do get to choose whether to roll your Force Dice before rolling, but once you do, they're locked in). For a Charm check, every Light Pip gives you a success, and every two Dark Pips gives you a failure, while Coercion and Deception are reversed. So it will average out in your favor, but sometimes it's going to bite you.
I kinda like it, and if I find Influence causing trouble, I might tinker with this approach.
Just now, The Grand Falloon said:My point is that there is no place in the Influence power description, in any sidebar or anything , where it specifically states that light pips can't be used on a Coercion check. So no, it is not RAW. A lot of people have some memory of it being explicitly stated, but that only occurs in the Overwhelm Emotions talent.
I have to say, though, looking back over the Overwhelm Emotions talent, it doesn't work like any other talent or power upgrade I've seen. This is probably because EotE was a wild, lawless time, and the use of the Force Die wasn't quite so established as it was in F&D.
With Overwhelm Emotions, there's no Destiny Point flip, there's no Strain. You don't even get to choose whether to use the pips generated. They just happen (you do get to choose whether to roll your Force Dice before rolling, but once you do, they're locked in). For a Charm check, every Light Pip gives you a success, and every two Dark Pips gives you a failure, while Coercion and Deception are reversed. So it will average out in your favor, but sometimes it's going to bite you.
I kinda like it, and if I find Influence causing trouble, I might tinker with this approach.
Coercion, by RAW, instills fear . That is why it can only use Dark Side pips with Coercion. The Devs even clarified this.
8 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:My point is that there is no place in the Influence power description, in any sidebar or anything , where it specifically states that light pips can't be used on a Coercion check. So no, it is not RAW. A lot of people have some memory of it being explicitly stated, but that only occurs in the Overwhelm Emotions talent.
I have to say, though, looking back over the Overwhelm Emotions talent, it doesn't work like any other talent or power upgrade I've seen. This is probably because EotE was a wild, lawless time, and the use of the Force Die wasn't quite so established as it was in F&D.
With Overwhelm Emotions, there's no Destiny Point flip, there's no Strain. You don't even get to choose whether to use the pips generated. They just happen (you do get to choose whether to roll your Force Dice before rolling, but once you do, they're locked in). For a Charm check, every Light Pip gives you a success, and every two Dark Pips gives you a failure, while Coercion and Deception are reversed. So it will average out in your favor, but sometimes it's going to bite you.
I kinda like it, and if I find Influence causing trouble, I might tinker with this approach.
Yeah I dont see how you would coerce someone without instilling fear. Because that is how coercing works. it is instilling fear of consequences that gets them to do something they do not want to do.
On 2/11/2020 at 11:31 PM, Daeglan said:Yeah I dont see how you would coerce someone without instilling fear. Because that is how coercing works. it is instilling fear of consequences that gets them to do something they do not want to do.
It's very easy to coerce without instilling fear, that's called blackmail
11 minutes ago, WolfRider said:It's very easy to coerce without instilling fear, that's called blackmail
Blackmail is about fear of people finding out about something.
I can see non-dark coercion. Obi-Wan with saber drawn telling you that your troops are in disarray and you're beaten and you need to surrender before more lives are lost for no reason. Explaining how utterly eff'ed you are without actually threatening directly. Appealing to reason, or at least self preservation.
Gets close to other social skills, though.
Edited by Stan Fresh6 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:I can see non-dark coercion. Obi-Wan with saber drawn telling you that your troops are in disarray and you're beaten and you need to surrender before more lives are lost for no reason. Explaining how utterly eff'ed you are without actually threatening directly. Appealing to reason, or at least self preservation.
Gets close to other social skills, though.
That sounds more like leadership to me
On 2/11/2020 at 5:31 PM, Daeglan said:Yeah I dont see how you would coerce someone without instilling fear. Because that is how coercing works. it is instilling fear of consequences that gets them to do something they do not want to do.
Do you spend much time around children? My daughters coerce me into doing things all the time without making me afraid.
5 minutes ago, AEinhorn said:Do you spend much time around children? My daughters coerce me into doing things all the time without making me afraid.
that is not coercion.
7 hours ago, WolfRider said:It's very easy to coerce without instilling fear, that's called blackmail
7 hours ago, Daeglan said:Blackmail is about fear of people finding out about something.
I agree with @Daeglan . Blackmail is most definitely all about fear; specifically, fear that your darkest secrets will be exposed if you don't do what the blackmailer is forcing you to do, fear that someone you love may be hurt (or worse) if you don't do what the blackmailer tells you to do, etc.