So I'm very new to the game so I apologise if this has been discussed before but it seems that the Rebels and Imperials have an advantage over Separatist and Republic with the additional command card options that they have from the Specialists packs. Further to this any list with Either Luke or Vader in them will have further options once their respective operative versions are released.

Is this something of concern? Admittedly I'm slightly biased as I'm only playing Separatist's but just wondering if it is something that has been mentioned before or if I'm making a bigger deal out of this than necessary. I wondered if they might have put some additional command card options in the B1 and Clone upgrade packs to be arriving soon, but it seems not to be the case from what I've seen in the previews.

I would say that it is currently a very small concern. Having extra options would be nice, but only the 3-pip cards from the specialist packs have really made a big impact for Empire/Rebels. The 2-pips are good, but very list-dependent.

CIS and Republic will definitely get their own specialist packs at some point, but I wouldn't expect them any time soon. They weren't released for Empire or Rebels until the game had been out for almost a year.

I posted this somewhere on here before (can’t find it), but here’s how the Rebel/Imperial release schedule happened. I would expect Republic/CIS to be similar, but not identical. At the same time Rebel & Imperial releases are supposed to slow down, so the new factions can catch up. The only problem was that Lucas Film got involved and “requested” that FFG come out with some OT content right now. That’s why the older factions are getting Luke/Vader Operatives earlier than expected. To make matters worse for new faction player, the OT factions are have gotten some units that are OP (Tauntauns & Shoretroopers/mortars/Comms relay) compared to what the new factions have. Things will even out though in the next few months, and those OP units may get a nerf as well, but nothing will be done until after Christmas. So here is how the OT factions were released, so you can get a vague idea of what to expect for prequel releases (unless LFL gets involved again).

1 month : Heavy units for each faction.

2 months : Mats. Yeah, we were all surprised these came out when they did, but I would guess they won’t have this for the CW release, but you never know, they may come out with CW themed mats.

3 months : 2nd Commander and 2nd corps troop. It wasl only one faction that got a Commander/trooper release this month. For the Imperials/Rebels it was Veers and the Snowtroopers first.

4 months : 2nd Commander and 2nd corps troop for the faction that wasn’t in last month’s release. For the Imperial/Rebel release Leia and the Fleet Troopers came out on this month.

5 months : Objective/Deployment/Condition card expansion or “Priority Battlefield Expansion” - We’ve already seen this listed and is expected in Q1 2020, and surprise, it has a Clone Wars look and feel.

6 months : 3rd Commander or 1st Operative and the 1st Special Forces unit. The rebels got Han Solo as a commander, but the Imperials got Boba Fett as an Operative at this point. The special forces unit was a saboteur/sniper unit (Scout Troopers/Commandos) for both factions, but only one faction got something in this month, in this case it was Han and the Commandos.

7 months : 3rd Commander or 1st Operative and the first Special Forces unit for the faction that didn’t get anything last month. For the Imperials it was Boba and the Scout Troopers.

8 months : 2nd Support unit. Rebels got the 1.4 FD Laser Cannon and Imperials got the E-Web.

9 months : 2nd Special Forces unit and 3rd Commander or 1st Operative. The Imperials got the Imperial Royal Guard as their 2nd Special Forces unit and the Emperor as their 3rd Commander. Only one faction got their two units on this month.

10 months : 2nd Special Forces unit and 3rd Commander or 1st Operative for the faction that didn’t get anything last month. At this point Rebels got Chewie as their 1st Operative and Wookiees as their 2nd Special Forces unit.

11 months : Specialists. Both rebel and imperial factions got a 4 pack of Specialists that could be added as an extra trooper to a corps unit, the unit leader of which could also be used as a generic Commander.

12 months : 4th Commander for both factions and 3rd Special Forces unit. At this point the rebels got Jyn and the Pathfinders.

13 months : 4th Commander for both factions and 3rd Special Forces unit for the faction that didn’t get one last month. The Imperials got Krennic and the Deathtroopers.

14 months : 2nd Heavy Units. Imperials got the Occupier and Rebels got the Landspeeder.

15 months : 2nd Operatives Sabine and Bossk.

3 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

I posted this somewhere on here before (can’t find it), but here’s how the Rebel/Imperial release schedule happened. I would expect Republic/CIS to be similar, but not identical. At the same time Rebel & Imperial releases are supposed to slow down, so the new factions can catch up. The only problem was that Lucas Film got involved and “requested” that FFG come out with some OT content right now. That’s why the older factions are getting Luke/Vader Operatives earlier than expected. To make matters worse for new faction player, the OT factions are have gotten some units that are OP (Tauntauns & Shoretroopers/mortars/Comms relay) compared to what the new factions have. Things will even out though in the next few months, and those OP units may get a nerf as well, but nothing will be done until after Christmas. So here is how the OT factions were released, so you can get a vague idea of what to expect for prequel releases (unless LFL gets involved again).

uh, that isn't what happened. at all. FFG told us the whole time (see gencon Q&A) that they were going to do OT releases alongside TCW. Luke and Vader were rumored before clone wars was even announced this year. I think people like you guys here are trying to take 2 factions with 2 years worth of content and plug and play clones and droids right away, saying "man there are so many disparities here!" ... No Shxt? 1 core box + 1 commander vs a fully fledged army? I understand people want it and want it NOW, but if you think about 2 years from now and about all the units we will have access to then, I think you will be fine. I also do not think Tauntauns and Shores are BROKEN compared to some of the things rumored to be releasing in Q2 2020... It's mad crazy.

4 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

uh, that isn't what happened. at all. FFG told us the whole time (see gencon Q&A) that they were going to do OT releases alongside TCW. Luke and Vader were rumored before clone wars was even announced this year. I think people like you guys here are trying to take 2 factions with 2 years worth of content and plug and play clones and droids right away, saying "man there are so many disparities here!" ... No Shxt? 1 core box + 1 commander vs a fully fledged army? I understand people want it and want it NOW, but if you think about 2 years from now and about all the units we will have access to then, I think you will be fine. I also do not think Tauntauns and Shores are BROKEN compared to some of the things rumored to be releasing in Q2 2020... It's mad crazy.

Don’t shoot the messenger. Please take it up with Alex Davy, who mentioned in an interview, that LFL required the creation of OT content while they were trying to roll out CW content. The only OT content to come out along side CW is Luke & Vader and R2. Also I think you have the timing of when the CW was announced and when we heard anything about L&V incorrect.
There are only 3 posters here aside from you, and I didn’t see any post that made demands, including the OP. He was asking a question and is no doubt aggravated by the delays of the units that could make his games more enjoyable.
We also haven’t heard of anything about Q2, unless you’re on the testing team or know someone who is, and heard something. I am worried that they are going to have massive power creep now, especially if Tauntaun’s are an indication of the future.

The sign of a well balanced game when units created when the game began are just as useful as new units coming out.

On 12/22/2019 at 1:54 AM, JediPartisan said:

There are only 3 posters here aside from you, and I didn’t see any post that made demands, including the OP. He was asking a question and is no doubt aggravated by the delays of the units that could make his games more enjoyable.

I never said he was making demands. I have seen this website and facebook the past few weeks. I was putting the nonissue of 2 brand new factions not being a complete faction yet to rest, which is what this thread is. A nonissue.

On 12/22/2019 at 1:54 AM, JediPartisan said:

Don’t shoot the messenger. Please take it up with Alex Davy, who mentioned in an interview, that LFL required the creation of OT content while they were trying to roll out CW content. The only OT content to come out along side CW is Luke & Vader and R2. Also I think you have the timing of when the CW was announced and when we heard anything about L&V incorrect.

L&V were rumored, which is the word I used, meaning that they were in the pipeline long before clone releases were a problem. At the time, they probably thought that we were going to have R2 and 3po already.

On 12/22/2019 at 1:54 AM, JediPartisan said:

The sign of a well balanced game when units created when the game began are just as useful as new units coming out.

Yeah, clones and droids are still competitive right now. Rebel troopers are the most used unit in the game, and a there has not been a tournament without Luke, leia, boba and veers.

On 12/22/2019 at 1:54 AM, JediPartisan said:

especially if Tauntaun’s are an indication of the future.

TT's in their current form are broken. No question. They are clearly a negative play experience because they are 300 points of tarpit bs and a bunch of great keywords wrapped up into one storm of fur. I don't think that we will see something this messed up ever again nor do I think power creep is going to be a worry in this game. With point changes, erratas and more units, the meta will evolve with the players. I think we are in for a better year in 2020 as long as the unit continue to makes sense. R2 is the exception so far, he seems too good imo. 35 points for a VP, 8 hp or 4 hp + 4 wounds on your landspeeder/atrt/ clone tank etc... whew. AND another NTFS... sheesh.

1 hour ago, Cleto0 said:

I never said he was making demands. I have seen this website and facebook the past few weeks. I was putting the nonissue of 2 brand new factions not being a complete faction yet to rest, which is what this thread is. A nonissue.

L&V were rumored, which is the word I used, meaning that they were in the pipeline long before clone releases were a problem. At the time, they probably thought that we were going to have R2 and 3po already.

Yeah, clones and droids are still competitive right now. Rebel troopers are the most used unit in the game, and a there has not been a tournament without Luke, leia, boba and veers.

TT's in their current form are broken. No question. They are clearly a negative play experience because they are 300 points of tarpit bs and a bunch of great keywords wrapped up into one storm of fur. I don't think that we will see something this messed up ever again nor do I think power creep is going to be a worry in this game. With point changes, erratas and more units, the meta will evolve with the players. I think we are in for a better year in 2020 as long as the unit continue to makes sense. R2 is the exception so far, he seems too good imo. 35 points for a VP, 8 hp or 4 hp + 4 wounds on your landspeeder/atrt/ clone tank etc... whew. AND another NTFS... sheesh.

As I didn’t hear the rumour you heard, and the Lead designer said what he said, I can only assume events transpired as Alex claimed. Also just because you heard a rumour doesn’t mean the claim that LFL “requested” OT content and it slowed the CW release is incorrect. All units exist in one form or another long before we see an article or hear a rumour. I have no doubt L&V caused a delay in CW and were not scheduled (Until LFL got involved), after all CW was announced more than a year ago. Wait, you do know who Alex is, right?

If you didn’t mean to imply that the OP was making demands, I’m sorry, but I was misled by your comment, “ I understand peopl e wa nt it and want it N OW...“. Wanting something “NOW”, would imply a demand.

I hope you’re right about power creep, it would sure be enough for me to abandon game. I saw enough of that with X-wing 1.0. 😭 🥺

On 12/23/2019 at 4:14 AM, Cleto0 said:

TT's in their current form are broken. No question. They are clearly a negative play experience because they are 300 points of tarpit bs and a bunch of great keywords wrapped up into one storm of fur. I don't think that we will see something this messed up ever again nor do I think power creep is going to be a worry in this game. With point changes, erratas and more units, the meta will evolve with the players. I think we are in for a better year in 2020 as long as the unit continue to makes sense. R2 is the exception so far, he seems too good imo. 35 points for a VP, 8 hp or 4 hp + 4 wounds on your landspeeder/atrt/ clone tank etc... whew. AND another NTFS... sheesh.

I disagree with the TTs are broken sentiment. I've played in multiple tournaments and an RPQ since the TTs were released. I've never lost to them. I do see how they are a very strong unit. They aren't broken. I do think they will get a point increase to 100-110 though. I did specifically play against a good TT player several times in a row to get comfortable with actually beating them and I run triple sabs which allows me to decide where the TTs will attack my army.

I did have to work hard to learn how to beat them and adjust my current army to prepare for the TTs, (added in Grapple line for Sabine, and Jedi Mind trick for Luke and adjusted some of the starting cards I chose with bids), but that is not unlike preping your current army to better deal with the new factions. I feel the droids are very strong right now and the clones are very scenario dependent and can seem almost unbeatable in those scenarios (ex. Rex and the new hostage format). I think the more people play and prepare for the TTs we will see less of them. Definitely a very strong unit, not broken imo.

30 minutes ago, weebaer said:

I disagree with the TTs are broken sentiment. I've played in multiple tournaments and an RPQ since the TTs were released. I've never lost to them. I do see how they are a very strong unit. They aren't broken. I do think they will get a point increase to 100-110 though. I did specifically play against a good TT player several times in a row to get comfortable with actually beating them and I run triple sabs which allows me to decide where the TTs will attack my army.

I did have to work hard to learn how to beat them and adjust my current army to prepare for the TTs, (added in Grapple line for Sabine, and Jedi Mind trick for Luke and adjusted some of the starting cards I chose with bids), but that is not unlike preping your current army to better deal with the new factions. I feel the droids are very strong right now and the clones are very scenario dependent and can seem almost unbeatable in those scenarios (ex. Rex and the new hostage format). I think the more people play and prepare for the TTs we will see less of them. Definitely a very strong unit, not broken imo.

That is an interesting sentiment, but I don't take one player's experience as any value tbh. Sabs are not even good against tauntauns... I have also played many games and watched many, all including Tier 1 players. In all games with rebels, tauntauns were taken. When I say broken, I mean that it doesn't conform with the rest of the game's balance. Tauntauns are clearly broken because they are taken so frequently.

16 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

That is an interesting sentiment, but I don't take one player's experience as any value tbh. Sabs are not even good against tauntauns... I have also played many games and watched many, all including Tier 1 players. In all games with rebels, tauntauns were taken. When I say broken, I mean that it doesn't conform with the rest of the game's balance. Tauntauns are clearly broken because they are taken so frequently.

"Sabs arent even good vs TTs". Huh. Looks like you should practice with playing armies that are actually good against TTs instead of whining about them. Sabs control where your opponent will be attacking. any good TT player will not run into 3 mines but will choose to change course and hit a different flank which is exactly what the sab player should be prepared for. I played vs triple TTs twice in the most recent RPQ and beat them soundly. Sabine and Luke as a tag team will mop them up and with electroline grapple, Jedi Mind trick and some well placed fleets with a standby they had to walk into mines and get panicked very quickly, or hit my flank I wanted them to hit. either way I came out exactly where I wanted to be. If people would just make adjustments to their team instead of whining about all the new releases they would be a little happier and might even find success on the game board.

I agree with you that TTs are very strong. I don't think they are broken. People just havent tried to counter them well enough. I expect their points to increase, like I said. If they were broken then they would be winning all the RPQs, but they arent. Would you have described triple snipers as broken before the range limitation and point increase?

3 hours ago, weebaer said:

"Sabs arent even good vs TTs". Huh. Looks like you should practice with playing armies that are actually good against TTs instead of whining about them. Sabs control where your opponent will be attacking. any good TT player will not run into 3 mines but will choose to change course and hit a different flank which is exactly what the sab player should be prepared for. I played vs triple TTs twice in the most recent RPQ and beat them soundly. Sabine and Luke as a tag team will mop them up and with electroline grapple, Jedi Mind trick and some well placed fleets with a standby they had to walk into mines and get panicked very quickly, or hit my flank I wanted them to hit. either way I came out exactly where I wanted to be. If people would just make adjustments to their team instead of whining about all the new releases they would be a little happier and might even find success on the game board.

I agree with you that TTs are very strong. I don't think they are broken. People just havent tried to counter them well enough. I expect their points to increase, like I said. If they were broken then they would be winning all the RPQs, but they arent. Would you have described triple snipers as broken before the range limitation and point increase?

Sorry mate, I believe you are terribly mistaken. Let's say I have 3 tauntauns prepared to attack your flank. All of your sabs have gone and dropped a charge in relitively the same place, meaning that if I hit one (which I will have to to attack this flank), I hit all of them. My full health tauntaun charges in, gaining not one, but 2 dodge tokens. On avg, I will only save 33 % of the time and I will be able to block 2 hits using my dodges. A rebel sab bomb hits for 1.6247 damage. (1r2w s/c & blast) This means that on avg I will take about 2.246 wounds, so thanks for proc'ing tenacity. This is even worse if they are spread out over a larger area or multiple tauntauns... Sabs are a mental game. Once you get past the fact that they really are not that great at doing lots of damage, you can bust through the line. My tauntauns will unceremoniously run over your sabs and deal approx 3 wounds through blocks.

Now, you also talk about luke, sabine, and fleets, all of which do work well against tauntauns. You also talk about specific tactics with these units, including standby and grapple. The point of tauntauns isn't to absolutely kill everything in your list. It is to weigh you down with my 300 points and win with the other 500. The game is objectives, not kill points. If your operative, commander and ENTIRE rest of your army is prepping for a big charge, while handing me board control, I am completely fine with that lol.

Quoting Daniel Lupo, Top 8 world's finisher last year using sabs " Tauns can move up and pop the sabs before they get much off. "

3 hours ago, weebaer said:

If people would just make adjustments to their team instead of whining about all the new releases they would be a little happier and might even find success on the game board.

whew. For starters, we call tauntauns and shores power creep. 2. I am plenty happy with the game I play. 3. I have found lots of success on the board, going 4-0 at rpq and going 3-0 at gencon and winning a couple of small local tournies. I don't think you mathed the game out or realize what a mess tauntauns are. Do I think the game is unplayable? no. Do I think that a good droid player can beat a good tauntaun player? perhaps, but it is more difficult to do.

3 hours ago, weebaer said:

I agree with you that TTs are very strong. I don't think they are broken. People just havent tried to counter them well enough. I expect their points to increase, like I said. If they were broken then they would be winning all the RPQs, but they arent. Would you have described triple snipers as broken before the range limitation and point increase?

What is your definition of broken? Mine is above.

"If they were broken then they would be winning" They are winning. See Invader League and watch for Adepticon and LVO coming up shortly. As far as Primes go, sure, other things can win, it is all local metas so there can be some wacky skew lists that make it further than they should or normally would.

Yes, I agree with THE DEVELOPERS AND LITERALLY THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY THAT TRIPLE SNIPERS WERE BROKEN. See definition of broken provided above. Link to developer's response to broken snipers

51 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Sorry mate, I believe you are terribly mistaken. Let's say I have 3 tauntauns prepared to attack your flank. All of your sabs have gone and dropped a charge in relitively the same place, meaning that if I hit one (which I will have to to attack this flank), I hit all of them. My full health tauntaun charges in, gaining not one, but 2 dodge tokens. On avg, I will only save 33 % of the time and I will be able to block 2 hits using my dodges. A rebel sab bomb hits for 1.6247 damage. (1r2w s/c & blast) This means that on avg I will take about 2.246 wounds, so thanks for proc'ing tenacity. This is even worse if they are spread out over a larger area or multiple tauntauns... Sabs are a mental game. Once you get past the fact that they really are not that great at doing lots of damage, you can bust through the line. My tauntauns will unceremoniously run over your sabs and deal approx 3 wounds through blocks.

Now, you also talk about luke, sabine, and fleets, all of which do work well against tauntauns. You also talk about specific tactics with these units, including standby and grapple. The point of tauntauns isn't to absolutely kill everything in your list. It is to weigh you down with my 300 points and win with the other 500. The game is objectives, not kill points. If your operative, commander and ENTIRE rest of your army is prepping for a big charge, while handing me board control, I am completely fine with that lol.

Quoting Daniel Lupo, Top 8 world's finisher last year using sabs " Tauns can move up and pop the sabs before they get much off. "

whew. For starters, we call tauntauns and shores power creep. 2. I am plenty happy with the game I play. 3. I have found lots of success on the board, going 4-0 at rpq and going 3-0 at gencon and winning a couple of small local tournies. I don't think you mathed the game out or realize what a mess tauntauns are. Do I think the game is unplayable? no. Do I think that a good droid player can beat a good tauntaun player? perhaps, but it is more difficult to do.

What is your definition of broken? Mine is above.

"If they were broken then they would be winning" They are winning. See Invader League and watch for Adepticon and LVO coming up shortly. As far as Primes go, sure, other things can win, it is all local metas so there can be some wacky skew lists that make it further than they should or normally would.

Yes, I agree with THE DEVELOPERS AND LITERALLY THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY THAT TRIPLE SNIPERS WERE BROKEN. See definition of broken provided above. Link to developer's response to broken snipers

I agree that Snipers were broken, I just don't consider TTs and snipers in the same category of strong due to the fact that TTs ARENT winning every RPQ, yes they are winning matches, but not every RPQ. Snipers were in 90% of every competitive army so yeah, broken. I am saying that TTs aren't at that level. You mention a lot that TTs will block sabs hits. They will, I never said they wouldn't. Its the suppression that kills them. I have only a couple of times actually killed TT units. Most of the time I just keep them really suppressed and panicking. Hence the Electroline grapple and the Mind trick. Im not saying sabs are the cure all, there are a lot of decent counters. I just happen to enjoy playing sabs and they have performed very effectively for me if I play them right. They can be very good vs TTs. If TTs can pop sabs before the sabs can do anything, then there was some turn 0 mistakes on the sab players part.

I honestly have never even played TTs, I have 2 squads. I have only played against them...over...and over...and over. I am one of those guys that understands what the current meta is and then I learn to beat it, whether it is shores or TTs, or snipers. Doesn't matter, I will always deliberately NOT play the meta and beat it anyway. That's what is actually fun to me.

I realize I had a lot of resources available to deal with them but it never took away from my ability to both take and win objectives. Again, we can agree to disagree. I haven't had trouble beating TTs so I guess that is why I don't feel they are broken. Maybe I should play a few games with them and see how strong they can be with my play style, so I may change my mind. But right now if I see shores and TTs on the other side the the table from me, It's not a big deal.

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

TTs ARENT winning every RPQ, yes they are winning matches, but not every RPQ. Snipers were in 90% of every competitive army so yeah, broken.

tauntauns are easily in 90% of the armies they can be in... If I could take tauntauns in other factions, you bet I am taking all 3. So by your definition they are broken?

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

Its the suppression that kills them.

so why are sabs better than rebel trooper units at this? sabs are more expensive, less total health and same suppression amount. Seems like you are backtracking your argument because you are wrong...

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

Im not saying sabs are the cure all, there are a lot of decent counters.

which, in your opinion, is every unit that can deal a single suppression.

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

I will always deliberately NOT play the meta and beat it anyway.

This is my least favorite sentiment from people. Everyone wants to be "different". If you know your list better than your opponent knows theirs, and you know how to handle your opponent's list you will win. I've won games with airspeeders without points decreases. Meta exists because it is the path of least resistance. Every single part of most meta lists take little thought into how they play. For example, meta rebel lists include leia, because she is easy to work with, naked rebel troopers or z-6 troopers, because they are easy, tauntauns because they are forgiving and broken, and snipers because they are easy and cover for mistakes. There are other lists with power spikes, like my own alpha strike clone list that will have a better damage output, but are harder to play with because they require some thinking. There is no meta that is defined like in X-wing.

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

Maybe I should play a few games with them and see how strong they can be with my play style, so I may change my mind. But right now if I see shores and TTs on the other side the the table from me, It's not a big deal.

shores are just power creep imo, but tauntauns are clearly undercosted for their action economy, which includes 2 moves, 2 dodges, a free attack, 2 free dice upgrades to crits and a bit more.

20 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

tauntauns are easily in 90% of the armies they can be in... If I could take tauntauns in other factions, you bet I am taking all 3. So by your definition they are broken?

You have stats on that?

"every unit can deal suppression" yeah. but not every unit can wait to deal that suppression when they want to, nor can every unit deal a suppression to each unit in a range 2 circle.

It is obvious you will not change my mind that sabs are a decent counter to TTs and you are welcome to not even try to see ways they can be helpful to try to make me look inexperienced or dumb. That's fine.

Ill just keep beating TT lists, as I have done in the past, and you can keep running the units you feel are broken instead of beating them. I think we are good here.

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

You have stats on that?

"every unit can deal suppression" yeah. but not every unit can wait to deal that suppression when they want to, nor can every unit deal a suppression to each unit in an area.

It is obvious you will not change my mind that sabs are a decent counter to TTs and you are welcome to not even try to see ways they can be helpful to try to make me look inexperienced or dumb. That's fine.

Ill just keep beating TT lists, as I have done in the past, and

My goal was not to make you look dumb. My goal was to tell people that tauntauns are broken. You disagreed and used only your individual player experience to justify the statement, meaning your argument has lots of bias and your list you describe (sabs+sabine+luke) is a pretty skewy list. You gotta remember that I am also trying to deal with infinite suppression Vader +Krennic, double tank shores, and droid lists, all of which have many answers/ invulnerability to suppression. Another thing your list has against it is bounty, which can really hurt.

Using individual player experience along with other sources can give a better picture of the issue, which to reiterate, is not your list, it is tauntauns and how broken they are. In Invader League Single Elims, about 70% of the rebel lists bring tauntauns. Every single rebel list has snipers still, which shows the results I believe a broken unit to show.

My recommendation is that you stop taking this argument so personally.

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

and you can keep running the units you feel are broken like any classy player would.

nice. FYI, I am an imperial/clone main.

10 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

shores are just power creep imo

They're good, but beatable, and pretty expensive compared to other options. I would hate to see a nerf to them simply because I don't think they're game-breaking. Then it becomes a bit of a slippery slope. FFG has stated they want to avoid point changes, especially points increases. I think it was in the same link you posted.

With that in mind.. If there was a change, how would you fix them? I'm just curious.

6 hours ago, Dcalov said:

They're good, but beatable, and pretty expensive compared to other options. I would hate to see a nerf to them simply because I don't think they're game-breaking. Then it becomes a bit of a slippery slope. FFG has stated they want to avoid point changes, especially points increases. I think it was in the same link you posted.

With that in mind.. If there was a change, how would you fix them? I'm just curious.

I agree that they are not game-breaking, but having a 4 die range 4 attack with critical on it can get a lot of damage through for the points. Comparing the Shores to RT-97C Stormtroopers (1r3w r4), the shores have a 1.91 avg damage on a no cover shot at range 4. The Stormtroopers beat that with a 1.99, but if you attack in heavy cover, the critical shines. The expected damage of the storms goes from 1.99 down to .632. For the shores, it also goes down, but only to .956. Since many attacks are made with heavy cover, the expected damage of the shore troopers is greater. The additional benefit of the upgraded dice of the rest of the squad must also be taken into account. When attacking at range 3 with heavy cover, the Shoretroopers produce an expected 2.42 damage, while the Stormies continue to lag behind at 1.74.

The difference in price between the Shoretroopers and Stormtroopers is significant, at exactly 14 points. This cost is largely offset by cards like aggressive tactics, strict orders and other abilities/units like the free aim from Target 1 and the cost of the mortars. Combined with Comms Relay, the Shoretroopers give you much more than a better gun, they give you lots of utility that was previously unheard of. Being able to chain 1 order into 4 on a consistent basis is borderline ridiculous. The free tokens from aggressive tactics and target easily make up for the points put into them, and reliably hitting strict orders on multiple units per turn makes for very easy to play units.

What is the path going forward to fix this?

I first and foremost believe that FFG just does not put enough effort into play testing, and both units (shores and Tauntauns) received last minute changes, which is probably why they are better. I believe that the easiest way to fix shores is to remove comms relay from the game/hike it's price up to at least 8 points . My imperial lists include 4 comms relays normally, one on the DTs and 3 on Shore Mortars. This gives me near perfect or perfect activation control on every single turn, including 1 pip turns. I also then get to hit 4 free surge tokens and up to 3/4 target keywords depending on the list, even on 1 pip turns. I still hit 10-11 activations, which means that the list is highly competitive.

Another option other than the relay nerf would be to increase the base cost of the mortar , as they are where all the problems begin in the first place. This would have the same effect of increasing the cost of relay, without the unintended effect of nerfing other lists like rebels and droids who all use comms relay without all the broken stuff attached.

I do not believe this is too drastic a change, but I believe it does give us what we need to nerf these combos. To reiterate, I do not think the Shoretroopers are broken, I believe it is a perfect storm of keywords, cards and natural control over orders and therefore, the game.

On 12/30/2019 at 5:10 PM, Cleto0 said:

My goal was not to make you look dumb. My goal was to tell people that tauntauns are broken. You disagreed and used only your individual player experience to justify the statement, meaning your argument has lots of bias and your list you describe (sabs+sabine+luke) is a pretty skewy list. You gotta remember that I am also trying to deal with infinite suppression Vader +Krennic, double tank shores, and droid lists, all of which have many answers/ invulnerability to suppression. Another thing your list has against it is bounty, which can really hurt.

Using individual player experience along with other sources can give a better picture of the issue, which to reiterate, is not your list, it is tauntauns and how broken they are. In Invader League Single Elims, about 70% of the rebel lists bring tauntauns. Every single rebel list has snipers still, which shows the results I believe a broken unit to show.

My recommendation is that you stop taking this argument so personally.

nice. FYI, I am an imperial/clone main.

Hey Cleto0, just wanted to let you know that I agree with you that they are broken now. My rebel win % has gone up slightly ( I don't want to sound like a total tool, but that is impressive, because it was not low before.) ...but.. the main issue is that I have not lost yet, and my wins have been significantly easier. I decided to try to break them to the max and paired them with OP Luke and a ton of as cheap as possible units. Getting 4 rams in one turn (aided by Luke's new 1 pip) is insane.

Sorry I was a turd before. I assumed that because I was beating them consistently that must mean they arent broken, and, as you said, that was incorrect.

Please accept my apology, but I will still be happy to dismantle both shore and TT armies with my Luke/sabine/sabs list . Hopefully I will see you in tournaments in the future. How much do you think they will increase their points? Im guessing Ram will be re-worked to improving a hit to a crit, instead of blank die to a crit, and I bet they go up by 20 points.

On 1/8/2020 at 5:08 PM, weebaer said:

Hey Cleto0, just wanted to let you know that I agree with you that they are broken now. My rebel win % has gone up slightly ( I don't want to sound like a total tool, but that is impressive, because it was not low before.) ...but.. the main issue is that I have not lost yet, and my wins have been significantly easier. I decided to try to break them to the max and paired them with OP Luke and a ton of as cheap as possible units. Getting 4 rams in one turn (aided by Luke's new 1 pip) is insane.

Sorry I was a turd before. I assumed that because I was beating them consistently that must mean they arent broken, and, as you said, that was incorrect.

Please accept my apology, but I will still be happy to dismantle both shore and TT armies with my Luke/sabine/sabs list . Hopefully I will see you in tournaments in the future. How much do you think they will increase their points? Im guessing Ram will be re-worked to improving a hit to a crit, instead of blank die to a crit, and I bet they go up by 20 points.

Accepted. FFG has said in the past that they would rather rework the units than go after points, so I expect we will see a significant change to ram or to agile. Personally, I just want creature trooper rules to be reworked. I also believe that ram will stay the same because marksman is the improve die result keyword. I would not mind a large increase in points either, but reworking creature trooper wordings should be enough. As far as shores, I just want them to lose critical 1/ increase in mortar points.

15 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Accepted. FFG has said in the past that they would rather rework the units than go after points, so I expect we will see a significant change to ram or to agile. Personally, I just want creature trooper rules to be reworked. I also believe that ram will stay the same because marksman is the improve die result keyword. I would not mind a large increase in points either, but reworking creature trooper wordings should be enough. As far as shores, I just want them to lose critical 1/ increase in mortar points.

Tauntauns are completely broken. Highest mobility in the game (free pivots and speed 3), dodges for moving, double surge (to include ram's silly turn two blanks to crits), relentless (with good melee and range pools), 4 wounds and courage 2 as a cherry on top. Seriously, what is their weakness? They literally have an answer to everything.

I'm beginning to think that Tauntauns as they are may need changed , but not because they are broken, but because like snipers they are too popular. They are a "low skill" unit in that you can get reasonable results with them regardless of your skill, but IMO the better players out there can outplay them , there are quite a few tactics that can be used against them. High velocity ranged weapons can do a fair bit against them.

I actually like having them run into my ATRTs on standby backed by snipers and Corp units with astromechs , they do not like suppression , which IMO is their major Achilles heal. 1.4 Fd units. Also a T47 can weirdly have fun with them (harpoons can also be fun with them , pulling them out of position)

Edit, I think the delays didn't do much for the anti TT meta either with the incoming tanks and the new operative Vader and Luke.

The fact you can outplay the Tauntauns does not mean they are not overpowered. It's exactly the opposite. We're talking about a non-central non-vital piece of the army (not a commander, not an operative, not a heavy support) that you need a whole plan to get rid off ? That's the definition of overpowered : you have to commit way too much for them compared to their cost and role in the army. Not the fact you can't defeat them.

1 hour ago, Katsutoshi said:

The fact you can outplay the Tauntauns does not mean they are not overpowered. It's exactly the opposite. We're talking about a non-central non-vital piece of the army (not a commander, not an operative, not a heavy support) that you need a whole plan to get rid off ? That's the definition of overpowered : you have to commit way too much for them compared to their cost and role in the army. Not the fact you can't defeat them.

i think it's okay to need a plan to beat them when they are spammed, because 3x tauns with no upgrades is 270 points, more expensive than any fully upgraded vader, dooku, AT-ST etc. so i don't think that's a sign that they are overpowered for any unit, regardless of how strong they actually are.

i do think they could use a bit of a tune down though.

On 1/11/2020 at 11:34 PM, Mokoshkana said:

Tauntauns are completely broken. Highest mobility in the game (free pivots and speed 3), dodges for moving, double surge (to include ram's silly turn two blanks to crits), relentless (with good melee and range pools), 4 wounds and courage 2 as a cherry on top. Seriously, what is their weakness? They literally have an answer to everything.

did you even read my stance? we are all saying the same thing now... This thread has completely diverted. Let's just pick this up on the other 1000 tauntaun threads.

1 hour ago, Cleto0 said:

did you even read my stance? we are all saying the same thing now... This thread has completely diverted. Let's just pick this up on the other 1000 tauntaun threads.

I did, but I don't believe that reworking the Creature Trooper type is enough. Dewbacks are fine, Tauntauns are not.