I've been reading the forums and looking at the FAQ, but I'd like to check my understanding of the timing window.

Let's say Stark initiates a Military Challenge against Targaryen, and Kneels the Warhost of the North. The Targaryen player Kneels Viserys to Defend.

During the Framework Action step 2 "Challenge Result is Implemented", sub-step 3 "Framework Event Resolves", Viserys is selected to fulfill Stark's Claim of 1 and becomes Moribund.

During the Framework Action, step 5 "Responses", Viserys triggers his Save to Return to Hand.

Stark receives no Power, as the Challenge was Resolved Opposed (STR >1) in the previous Framework Action window, "Determine the Winner of the Challenge", but no cards go the Dead pile.

Is this correct (including terminology and particular steps cited)?

Thanks.

Your timing is off on a whole bunch of levels, but before I get into that, there is one thing that is really off.

If the Stark player initiates a military challenge (red challenge icon) against Targaryen, how exactly did the Targaryen player defend with Viserys - who only has a power (blue) challenge icon? You cannot declare a defender that does not have the appropriate challenge icon.

In terms of the timing, you are missing two important things. First, in a framework window, like challenge resolution, where there are multiple framework events, each event cycles through its own Steps 1-3, then continue on to a common Steps 4-6. The second thing you seem to be missing is that since Viserys' Response includes the word "save," it happens in Step 2 (Saves/Cancels), not in Step 5. So the resolution of the window looks more like this:

Step 1a: Initiate "determine challenge winner" (Count STR on attacking/defending sides and compare).
Step 2a: Save/Cancel - If someone has a Response effect that "cancels" the determination of the challenge winner (like the card Misinformation).
Step 3a: Resolve "determine challenge winner" (Assuming no other card effects, the player with the highest challenge STR in 1a officially wins the challenge)

Step 1b: Initiate "claim effects" (This includes choosing the card(s) to be killed in a military challenge or discarded in an intrigue challenge).
Step 2b: Save/Cancel - (If someone a Response effect that "saves" the chosen card or "cancels" the overall claim effect, it is used here. Note that the word "save" or "cancel" must appear in the text of the effect.)
Step 3b: Resolve "claim effects" (Any card not saved in Step 2b officially dies, is discarded, etc. here.)

Step 1c: Initiate "award unopposed" (Determine whether the attacker won in #3a and if the defender had at least 1 character AND a total STR greater than 0 in #1a)
Step 2c: Save/cancel - If someone has a Response effect that "cancels" the determination/awarding of the unopposed bonus.
Step 3c: Resolve "award unopposed" (If the attacker won and the defender had no participating characters and/or counted a total challenge STR less than 1, the attacker gets 1 power for their House here.)

Step 1d: Initiate "award Renown" (Determine if the winner of the challenge has any participating characters with the Renown keyword)
Step 2d: Save/Cancel - If someone has a Response effect that "cancels" the awarding of power for Renown, it is played here.
Step 3d: Resolve "award Renown" (Appropriate characters claim 1 power each).

Step 4: Passives (Resolve passive effects activated by ANYTHING in Steps 1a-3d. Note, you do NOT resolve passives for winning a challenge in 3a until after ALL the framework events are complete. So settling claim, awarding unopposed and awarding Renown come before any other card effect.)

Step 5: Responses (Players take turns triggering Responses that do NOT use the words "save" or "cancel" made possible by anything in Steps 1a-4. Note that you cannot play Responses - other than saves and cancels - to something like winning/losing a challenge until ALL framework events and passive effects are complete. So settling claim, awarding unopposed, awarding Renown and any passives will ALWAYS come before triggering any Response. For example, if a Lannister loses an intrigue challenge, the winner will always have a chance to settle claim and discard "A Lannister Pays His Debts" from the player's hand before the losing Lannister player can Respond to losing the challenge)

Step 6: End (The window officially closes)

In your example, assuming Viserys did somehow gain a military icons and could legally defend, the Targ player would have lost the challenge in Step 3a, Viserys would have been saved in Step 2b and, when determining whether the challenge was opposed or not, Steps 1c-3c would have looked at what happened during 1a-3a, found that there had been 1 opposing character and a total defending STR greater than 1, so the challenge was opposed and no power awarded. The attacker would not get a bonus power and Viserys would have been eventually removed to his controller's hand rather than the dead pile.

ktom said:

This is the kind of write ups that should be in the FAQ or at least in a "example/detailed supplement" referenced by it.

ktom said:

To avoid confusion: ktom mean "and a total defending STR greater than 0"

Stalkingwolf said:

I have long considered putting together an "unofficial, ultra-detailed timing chart" with write-ups like this for each phase and framework action window with examples of cards that would be played in various steps. Add it to the "to-do" list, I suppose.

ktom said:

I'm a little confused here, as I think there is only one timing issues in my statement?

I appreciate the help, but could use show me my error using the same numbering system in the FAQ for reference. The 1a, 1b, 1c and so forth is very clear within it's own context (superior to the FAQ, in fact), but it is difficult to translate every step back to the the flowcharts provided in the FAQ for comparison as you read along.

ktom said:

I actually was well-aware of both those things, so I must be implementing something incorrectly.

Let me show you what I was thinking in specific and you can, if you would, point out my errors:

2. "Challenge Result is Implemented".

Step 1 says "Framework Event Initiates" - This sounds to me like "who is to be killed" in context for a Military Challenge". Is this where I made my mistake? The FAQ states the character will become Moribund in this overall Framework Step, but does not specify if it occurs in sub-step 1 or sub-step 3. It DOES use the "initiates" language in other places to indicate choosing, however (pg. 14&15 re: "Action is Initiated"), and very confusing if they mean something different in the Framework descriptions.

Step 2 says "Save/Cancel responses to Framework Event" - I took this to mean, effects the selection of who is to be killed (primarily because of the next step). Because of my interpretation of the immediately preceding Step, it appeared Visyers was not eligible to use his ability, as he had not been "killed" yet. Is this the core of my error? Can you "Save" a character that is targeted to be Killed, but has not yet been "Killed"?

Step 3 says "Framework Event Resolves" - This reads as though the actual Challenge results take place here, so this would be the point where Viserys becomes Moribund. If that is not the case, I'm not sure what this step actually does.

The above three Steps repeat for "Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded" and "Renown is awarded".

Step 4 says "Passive Abilities (now triggered) are Resolved" - Self-explanatory and not relevant for this particular example

Step 5 says "Responses" - Since I was assuming the Moribund state occurred in sub-Step 3, and no Save/Cancel step existed afterward, this was the only location to activate Viserys ability (which, I now notice, is expressly forbidden in the FAQ).

In sum, was the mistake a timing error (when Viserys becomes Moribund) or was it a error in how Save/Cancel abilities work? Something else I'm overlooking entirely?

Thanks again for any assistance.

SJBenoist said:

You looked like you were getting into multiple areas of timing because it appeared that you were waiting to award unopposed and Renown until after you had saved Viserys, which would imply that you were trying to trigger standard Responses to one framework event before resolving the rest. Combine that with the timing for the save, and you had multiple errors. So while you only had one timing issue in your mind, your description of your sample scenario seemed to hold more errors than just the one.

SJBenoist said:

How so? The system used above is exactly the same as the one used in the FAQ. On page 17 of the FAQ, it shows a generic framework action window with the following number scheme:

1. Framework event initiates
2. Save/cancel responses to framework event
3. Framework event resolves
4. Passive abilities are resolved
5. Responses
6. End of Action

There is also an arrow from #3 to #1 that says "Next Framework Event."

On page 19 of the FAQ, the framework action window for resolving challenges spells out the 4 framework events therein:

1. Determine the winner of the challenge
2. Challenge result is implemented
3. Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded
4. Renown is awarded

All I did in the above scheme was take the numbering on pg. 17 and specifically draw out the cycling of Steps 1-3 for each framework event in the window you were asking about that are represented with a single arrow in the FAQ. The arrow indicates that if there are 4 framework events, you have 4 separate Step 1's, right? That's what I did in the earlier post. Okay, I suppose I could have said "1.1, 2.1, 3.1; 1.2, 2.2, 3.2; etc." instead, but other than swapping the 1, 2, 3, 4 from pg. 19 with a, b, c, d, I'm not sure how I can rewrite it "using the same numbering system in the FAQ for reference." It already matches the FAQ.

SJBenoist said:

Then your error is in understanding what is meant by implementing a challenge result, as well as the basic nature of save effects.

"Implement the challenge result" essentially says "determine what type of effect should be initiated here by challenge type and initiate it." So ultimately, you are correct that for a military challenge, "implementing the challenge result" is saying "who will be killed." However, you seem to indicate that your understanding is that implementing that "who will be killed" only entails pointing the gun. You need to take it to the next level. When you initiate a kill effect, including military claim, you aren't simply pointing the gun. You are also pulling the trigger. The bullet leaves the gun, so to speak, in Step 1. But the bullet doesn't hit the target until Step 3. That means Step 2, the save/cancel opportunity, is your only chance to push the target out of the way (so to speak). So if Viserys is chosen (gun aimed) to die (gun fired) for claim in Step 1, your chance to save him (use his Save Response) is in Step 2, so that he isn't able to die (bullet strikes) in Step 3.

This "gun aimed and fired" in Step 1, "target might be pushed out of the way" in Step 2, "bullet strikes" in Step 3 metaphor should also help illustrate why when a character is saved from military claim, you don't get to go backwards (essentially "un-firing" the gun) and choose a different character to die for claim if the first choice is saved.

The basic nature of save effects is that they interrupt the initiation and resolution of a kill effect so that the character in question never actually dies (and never actually becomes moribund) in the first place. In your scenario, Viserys was returned to hand. He was never actually killed, even though he was chosen to die for claim. Sounds like that, along with how much of the kill's initiation was happening in Step 1, was the piece you were missing to justify using his Response in Step 2 instead of Step 5 (when, as you say, it is too late).

ktom said:

That makes sense to me, and clears up my mistake, thank you!

P.S. Is there no Private Message function on these boards? I can't seem to locate it ...

SJBenoist said:

You have to be friends with a user to send private messages (which just get sent directly to whatever email address the user has given without being saved somewhere within your profile on the forums). Before you are friends, you can include a private message while sending a friend request.

Thanks!

Glad I wasn't just overlooking it