Balin and Bifur also benefit greatly from Unlikely Friendship, given that Balin is in Leadership and Bifur works quite well with Silvan decks. Unfortunately, they each have only the Dwarf trait, which limits them outside of dedicated dwarf decks in which they're competing with the vast gaggle of tribal-Dwarf heroes. They're great splash heroes and fantastic with 2+ players. Bifur is also one of only 5 heroes whose stat total is less than their printed threat, and he's the only hero who's under-costed without a clear catch: Beorn is immune to player cards, S Glorfindel raises threat and guilt levels, Na'asiyah cannot pay for allies, and Smeagol will likely turn on you. T Eowyn effectively has him beat there, but she's arguably the best hero in the entire game so that's not really a knock on Bifur. Elladan and Elrohir are sort of under-costed when played together, but that's a big restriction. Mirlonde is effectively under-costed, but then her ability is essentially blank if she's the only Lore hero. If Bifur was made today, would he be 8 threat? Or is his resource-smoothing ability considered a step below the traditional power curve, thus justifying the -1 to his threat cost? I suppose the argument might be that his ability doesn't actually gain you anything measurable: no stats, resources, readying, or knowledge has actually been gained because you paid a resource for another resource.

Grima, Elrond, Lo Bilbo, T Bilbo, T Beregond, S Beregond, Galadriel, Hirluin, S Theoden, T Theoden, Folco, and T Merry are all heroes with inflated printed threat. Folco, T Merry, and T Theoden essentially begin the game on par or better. Hirluin is expected to ramp up so quickly from passive ally boosts that his starting threat is anything but too high. So really we're left with Grima, Elrond, Lo Bilbo, T Bilbo, T Beregond, Galadriel, and S Theoden as the actual inflated threat heroes. Grima, T Beregond, and S Theoden are all heroes that reduce the cost of cards, and that might be considered an ability strong enough to justify an extra +1 to threat cost. Though I'd argue that it doesn't in S Theoden's case, and that he inherited his inflated threat from his Tactics version, which is exactly what happened to S Beregond. And why doesn't Damrod get a +1 to threat cost? Is it because he's less likely to play a trap every turn than S Theoden is to play a Rohan ally? Elrond's healing and Galadriel's abilities are definitly powerful enough to justify their threat cost. Poor Bilbo is just a bizarre design, but drawing an extra card in solo is quite powerful and I can almost understand what they were going for. On the whole, it seems like consistent cost reduction, uniquely powerful abilities, and being Bilbo are the three main causes of inflated threat cost.

11 hours ago, pmdoug said:

On the whole, it seems like consistent cost reduction, uniquely powerful abilities, and being Bilbo are the three main causes of inflated threat cost.

Excellent analysis... and poor Bilbo. His Lore version has a very powerful passive ability, but what about his tactics version? I haven't played with T Bilbo much, but do you think it similarly justifies an increased threat?

I strongly dislike the formula that makes Theoden and Merry higher threat. Yes, with their abilities, their stats increase and justify the threat increase, but getting +1 willpower or attack is hardly a strong ability and I don't think it justifies the increase in threat. Theoden in particular would be much more playable with a threat of 11.

1 hour ago, Calyx said:

Excellent analysis... and poor Bilbo. His Lore version has a very powerful passive ability, but what about his tactics version? I haven't played with T Bilbo much, but do you think it similarly justifies an increased threat?

I strongly dislike the formula that makes Theoden and Merry higher threat. Yes, with their abilities, their stats increase and justify the threat increase, but getting +1 willpower or attack is hardly a strong ability and I don't think it justifies the increase in threat. Theoden in particular would be much more playable with a threat of 11.

Let's be' honest: merry at 6 is robbery. With hobbits fellows he gets 3 attack plus a strong repeatable ability equating to 2 threat less than his actual stats plus ability to ready another character in combact phase... 4 attack in sagas when frodo is in play.

Without hobbits he is still 2 wp for 6 threat in tactic. By far the best and cheaper quester in sphere until eowyn arrived. Merry is very good with 6 threat and would be unfairly good at 5.

Theoden is clearly better when the count of questing tactics heroes rise, especially in multiplayer OR as centerpiece of a voltron deck. As stand alone tactic questing hero he is just too expensive to be considered good.

Lore Bilbo on the other hand is just overpriced and more so with an extended carpool. The ability is strong in solo, good in two players, nice or meh in 3 or 4 players depending from your personal feeling. Even in the early time of the game the ability was not enough to cover a gap of 3 treath vs his actual stats. Also the stat distribution is not great and has worsened during the game maturity. His lore version was at the center of one killer deck in early game along with fast hitch, a burning brand and love of tales but outside that....

Tactic bilbo is better having actual stats better than his printed one and compensating for the most the threat gap plus a sinergizing ability which can be quite good in quite a few decks. At least this version has 2 abilities which make sense, synergize between themselves and provide something that is not so easy to come by even with the modern carpool

I always thought that Lore Bilbo had three extra threat as he drew you one card compared to Beravor's two cards and six extra threat, because you will most likely use her for her ability and all her stats are wasted. Sure, you can give her an Unexpected Courage to actually use these stats, but here Bilbo has the advantage of using his without the need for readying, though aside from the willpower there is not much you can do without attachments.

2 hours ago, Amicus Draconis said:

I always thought that Lore Bilbo had three extra threat as he drew you one card compared to Beravor's two cards and six extra threat, because you will most likely use her for her ability and all her stats are wasted. Sure, you can give her an Unexpected Courage to actually use these stats, but here Bilbo has the advantage of using his without the need for readying, though aside from the willpower there is not much you can do without attachments.

It's funny, if Lo Bilbo and Beravor switched their abilities, I'd be happy. I wouldn't mind exhausting Bilbo for draw as much as I mind exhausting Beravor. And Beravor is a far better third hero in a solo deck than Bilbo. As it stands, I will nearly always prefer to play Beravor over Bilbo because she draws more cards, incentivizes readying, and selects who draws the cards. If Bilbo was 7 threat or 9 threat with high willpower, or even 1 higher attack, I'd like him. I'm not really sure what it is about Bilbo that made them think low willpower, low attack, and decent defense. I suppose it's thematically Old Bilbo, but even then Bilbo was a cheeky senior planning to escape to Rivendell. Doesn't seem right that he has the same willpower as homebodies like Fatty and Tom Cotton.

Beaver is a great hero choice, even better now with more readying options and far less need of her stats because of allies power creep vs base game.

With 2 resource cost you can pay for a 2w or attack rally with ease even in-sphere.

56 minutes ago, Halberto said:

Beaver is a great hero choice, even better now with more readying options and far less need of her stats because of allies power creep vs base game.

With 2 resource cost you can pay for a 2w or attack rally with ease even in-sphere.

Well, I must call her Beaver from now on.

I will always have a fondness for her because the friend I play with would always run her in the early days and I would leech that card draw with my 0 draw leadership decks.

Beravor offers choices and options, while Bilbo is just a solid passive on a terrible body.

Round 4 is over, the poll is now on round 5 until the 8th of December.

Quickbeam vs Smeagol was close by 1 vote in the favor of Quickbeam
Spirit Frodo beat Leadership Frodo
Beorn was surpassed by his son Grimbeorn in the Beorning cagematch.

Blasted elves are dominating the standings, with 6 of the top 10 spots.

4 hours ago, Kjeld said:

Blasted elves are dominating the standings, with 6 of the top 10 spots.

Well they are the firstborn children of Iluvatar so there's that hahaha.

Also some thoughts from this round, Firstly LOL at Bombur V.S. Fatty battle of the bottom, likewise Bilbo against Tom is an equal battle of mediocre hobbit types. The internal battle between Saruman and Treebeard was epic for me haha. Galadriel and Elrond, Eowyn and Cirdan, Arwen and Gandalf, Radagast and Eowyn, and Haldir and Sam are all going to be pretty close matchups.

Also was anyone else looking at Nori and Ori and scratching their head trying to remember which was which?

24 minutes ago, General_Grievous said:

Also was anyone else looking at Nori and Ori and scratching their head trying to remember which was which?

Ori, Nori and Oïn, I never remember who do what, I have to check at every round.

Edit : and Dwalin too...

Ori is the dwarf who wrote last in the Book of Mazarbûl, so he is the Lore hero (he is depicted writing a book). Óin and his brother Glóin used the tinderbox to make campfires in The Hobbit as seen in the art and Nori is the drinking dwarf who reduces threat when new dwarves are played, though I cannot see a connection between their abilities and their art.

Have to admit I just voted against all those dwarfs in each round because I couldn't remember which one was which.

Bit later than usual, but round 5 has ended and everyone can now vote for round 6: https://challonge.com/LOTRLCGHero2019
Starting to see a more even spread in votes. No-one is losing with just a single digit percentage of votes anymore. Just 3 more rounds before the final 16 move on to the bracket. I'm afraid to inform you all that Spirit Pippin won't be in that bracket.

Some of these choices are grueling. This is very fun.

(At the time of my voting in round 6 there are 16 match-ups that are 50/50. Crazy!)

10 hours ago, NathanH said:

Have to admit I just voted against all those dwarfs in each round because I couldn't remember which one was which.

I hear you it's hard to differentiate between them and I definitely prefer the other characters they have been paired up with more than someone j don't really know/use.

Late again, but I didn't have the energy for the tournament last night. THe current round (round 7) is a very interesting one since it will decide which hero will be the only one left that remains undefeated, Eowyn or Arwen.

Other matchups that are worth noting are Leadership Faramir v Leadership Boromir

Fatty v Spirit Pippin

Leadership Gimli v Spirit Legolas

And many more. Vote now!

Eowyn is beating Arwen and by a slightly bigger margin than Gandalf is ahead of the elf-lord. And Legolas is being steadily beaten by Cirdan for some reason haha. Same with Boromir, the Tactics fellowship heroes need some love. Its also fun to see the Sands of Harad deluxe friends combat each other. And the two sons of denethor vying for leadership supremacy.

11 hours ago, General_Grievous said:

Eowyn is beating Arwen and by a slightly bigger margin than Gandalf is ahead of the elf-lord. And Legolas is being steadily beaten by Cirdan for some reason haha. Same with Boromir, the Tactics fellowship heroes need some love. Its also fun to see the Sands of Harad deluxe friends combat each other. And the two sons of denethor vying for leadership supremacy.

I voted Arwen > Eowyn (though these may be the two best heroes in the game) and Elrond > Gandalf... so this is a bit sad.

Cirdan, on the other hand, is way more powerful than Legolas (even though I do love Legolas). 4 will power with that amazing card selection ability? He would be one of my favorites even without Narya.

22 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I voted Arwen > Eowyn (though these may be the two best heroes in the game) and Elrond > Gandalf... so this is a bit sad.

Cirdan, on the other hand, is way more powerful than Legolas (even though I do love Legolas). 4 will power with that amazing card selection ability? He would be one of my favorites even without Narya.

He's definitely a top class hero for sure, one of the best in Spirit and hey they have some competition. But I assumed with more players having core set heroes experience, Legolas popularity from the Lore versus Cirdan and his amazing ability to quest via destruction and advance at weird times (him with a readying effect + Support of the Eagles on offense or pumped full of weapons and using Hour of Wrath and he can "quest" for much more than 4 willpower and deal with the mountain enemies problem at any player count.

5 minutes ago, General_Grievous said:

He's definitely a top class hero for sure, one of the best in Spirit and hey they have some competition. But I assumed with more players having core set heroes experience, Legolas popularity from the Lore versus Cirdan and his amazing ability to quest via destruction and advance at weird times (him with a readying effect + Support of the Eagles on offense or pumped full of weapons and using Hour of Wrath and he can "quest" for much more than 4 willpower and deal with the mountain enemies problem at any player count.

My wife loves Legolas for these reasons (though we haven't used Support of the Eagles with him - usually just some basic weapons + black arrow) and I do think he remains one of the best attacking heroes. His low threat combined with the ranged keyword and high attack is great, even leaving out his ability which is quite good. My wife plays him with Arwen/Eowyn and a version of Beregond, and her deck is very strong with these specialized heroes.

I would still argue that Cirdan has a greater impact on our games though when I play him.

4 hours ago, Calyx said:

My wife loves Legolas for these reasons (though we haven't used Support of the Eagles with him - usually just some basic weapons + black arrow) and I do think he remains one of the best attacking heroes. His low threat combined with the ranged keyword and high attack is great, even leaving out his ability which is quite good. My wife plays him with Arwen/Eowyn and a version of Beregond, and her deck is very strong with these specialized heroes.

I would still argue that Cirdan has a greater impact on our games though when I play him.

And it seems most agree with that assessment haha. It's interesting though that power has such an affect of favorites, I feel like who the character is in the lore is the biggest draw for me and then I tend to go to the more powerful versions of that character (tactics Legolas and Boromir) and Lore Aragorn. Dwarves are very strong but I have no interest in them to play and would definitely not rank them among my favorites despite their strength. Similar to Cirdan, he's a cool elf but is in the same grouping for me as Erestor. My wife loves playing with him as part of an Arwen/Caldera deck and I know he is solid but to us it seems like more of a subtle strength that contributes to the discard allies/Noldor theme but doesn't help out as much on the combat-heavy quests.

54 minutes ago, General_Grievous said:

And it seems most agree with that assessment haha. It's interesting though that power has such an affect of favorites, I feel like who the character is in the lore is the biggest draw for me and then I tend to go to the more powerful versions of that character (tactics Legolas and Boromir) and Lore Aragorn. Dwarves are very strong but I have no interest in them to play and would definitely not rank them among my favorites despite their strength. Similar to Cirdan, he's a cool elf but is in the same grouping for me as Erestor. My wife loves playing with him as part of an Arwen/Caldera deck and I know he is solid but to us it seems like more of a subtle strength that contributes to the discard allies/Noldor theme but doesn't help out as much on the combat-heavy quests.

Cirdan's power certainly is more subtle - which is fitting for his place in the lore. My favorite heroes are often ones that open up interesting decisions, like Tactics Eowyn or Thurindir. When playing Cirdan, you start each turn by deciding which card to keep, and then once he has Narya you decide how to most effectively utilize his actions - which allies do you ready? At what point should you do so?

5 hours ago, Calyx said:

Cirdan's power certainly is more subtle - which is fitting for his place in the lore. My favorite heroes are often ones that open up interesting decisions, like Tactics Eowyn or Thurindir. When playing Cirdan, you start each turn by deciding which card to keep, and then once he has Narya you decide how to most effectively utilize his actions - which allies do you ready? At what point should you do so?

That's probably our problem, we have Narya pretty much stapled to Hobbit ally Gandalf who usually just wants to ready himself for the extra stat bump on top of all of his other awesomeness haha. But thanks for the dialogue, cool to see different perspectives!

Final Round of Swiss matches!!!

Round 8 has now started, which is the last chance for some heroes to make it to the final 16. For now, both Beregonds defend the final two spots on the list, it will be hard getting them out of there.

Tactics Eowyn won from Arwen and is now our unbeaten champion.
In the bottom ranks, we find Fatty Bolger who has now lost all rounds, even against Spirit Pippin.

Vote now for round 8 and I will draft the bracket after the results of that round are in!

Here's the current top 16: