I would be interested to know from recent events if pilots and upgrades with force were over represented.

At a recent GC event I played 6 matches and in 4 of the 6 my opponent had a force user.

I found this incredibly difficult to counter as pushing damage was HARD TO DO (maybe was just the list I ran)

It just feels to me as though force is on the whole a bit under costed.

When I'm actually awake and not just browsing the forums at 4am because I can't sleep I'll answer this question. This post is to remind myself to do it.

3 hours ago, Hugeman said:

maybe was just the list I ran

What was the list?

Force is hugely powerful, especially when you pair it with high agility and high initiative.

My local opponent last night had a total 8 force on the table and told me that none of the locals had beaten his list yet (after 6-7 games). I was the first loss, which I attribute to Sense allowing me to set up a block on Anakin to take him off the table. Without my own force user, he probably would have won.

ok here I am

From: Wave 5 - Present
Total lists: 1308

Lists with force: 665
% of lists with force: 52.78%

Average number of pilots with force, in lists with force : 1.65
Average number of total pilots in lists with force: 3.32
Average number of total pilots in lists without force: 4.46
(Editor's note: if you remember Oops All Proton Torpedoes meta, from wave 1/2, at that time we had 1.06 copies of proton torps per table, on average. Right now, we have 1.68 force users per table.)

Total pilots: 4864
Total pilots with force: 1099 (22.59%)

% of lists with Force by faction:
Rebel: 68 / 192 (35.42%)
Empire: 249 / 289 (86.16%)
Scum: 41 / 173 (23.70%)
Resistance: 37 / 141 (26.24%)
FO: 69 / 110 (62.73%)
Republic: 177 / 205 (86.34%)
CIS: 24 / 150 (16.00%)

And thats because of the Republic. Redo the stats and pull the republic out and the predominance of force users goes way down. We have 1 faction that is basically totally dependant on force users for its competitive lists. At this point I think the Sinker Swarm is the Republics ONLY viable non force user based build in competitive play and lets face it, Sinker and the boys is a B+ to A- list . It just like if you look at the analysis of average number of ships in a list its gone way up since the release of the Separatists as they have multiple viable competitive 6 to 8 ship list builds and last I saw have single handedly brought up the average ships per list by 1.5 for the WHOLE game.

18 minutes ago, svelok said:

% of lists with Force by faction:
Rebel: 68 / 192 (35.42%)
Empire: 249 / 289 (86.16%)
Scum: 41 / 173 (23.70%)
Resistance: 37 / 141 (26.24%)
FO: 69 / 110 (62.73%)
Republic: 177 / 205 (86.34%)
CIS: 24 / 150 (16.00%)

I'd imagine if Rebels, Scum, Resistance, and CIS either had better or at the very least more force wielding pilots (or cheap force crew/gunners), those percentages might go up. Maybe not on CIS as they have their own pseudo-force with calc-sharing.

1 minute ago, Endureil said:

And thats because of the Republic. Redo the stats and pull the republic out and the predominance of force users goes way down. We have 1 faction that is basically totally dependant on force users for its competitive lists.

It's also worth considering that many of the other factions have 1 good force pilot or less. I'd wager strongly that if they had small base ace-y force pilots in Scum, Resistance, CIS, we'd see them all the time much like Kylo who is pushing FO stat up to 62.73% pretty much all by himself.

All good points 5050, Vader and the multiple good crew platforms for the Force using crew and gunner options are what push up imperial force numbers. If the other factions had access to crew and gunner options like 5th Brother they would have better rations but its an interesting combo because even if you gave 5th Brother clones to the other factions alot of them dont have access to good carries for them like the Imperials do. Whisper, Echo and the striker aces probably account for a significant percentage of 5th brothers play time as they are great carries for him which alot of the other factions dont have an equivalent to. And by that I mean they dont have what is already a good ship with a gunner slot that you can slap 5th Brother into and super charge it up to 11 by adding a force token to an already effective platform.

30 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

It's also worth considering that many of the other factions have 1 good force pilot or less. I'd wager strongly that if they had small base ace-y force pilots in Scum, Resistance, CIS, we'd see them all the time much like Kylo who is pushing FO stat up to 62.73% pretty much all by himself.

My deepest fever dream is Rey jumps in that FO interceptor, skullf0ks whomever is piloting it, tosses them out and flies that thing straight to a retailer near me, the X-Wing miniatures game Resistance TIE Interceptor with Rey pilot.

2 hours ago, gennataos said:

My deepest fever dream is Rey jumps in that FO interceptor, skullf0ks whomever is piloting it, tosses them out and flies that thing straight to a retailer near me, the X-Wing miniatures game Resistance TIE Interceptor with Rey pilot.

Rey's TIE Interceptor . Title.

If you have 2 or fewer stress tokens, you can execute red Segnor's Loop maneuvers ( or ) and perform actions even while stressed.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Rey's TIE Interceptor Title.

If you have 2 or fewer stress tokens, you can execute red Segnor's Loop maneuvers ( or ) and perform actions even while stressed.

The dream. (nightmare for others?) Put a Stealth Device on that and you have 1.0 Palp Soontir again. Joust entire list, don't care.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

My deepest fever dream is Rey jumps in that FO interceptor, skullf0ks whomever is piloting it, tosses them out and flies that thing straight to a retailer near me, the X-Wing miniatures game Resistance TIE Interceptor with Rey pilot.

I want Rey in a T-70 personally. We are going to be running a league soon where we place pilots in other ships.

Rey in a T-70, Vader in a Defender, Luke in an E-wing, Fenn (scum) in a Firespray, Assajj in a K-fighter...

Don't get me wrong: I think the force probably could stand a tap upwards in price. But I don't know that this is entirely a balance/dominance issue.

The people, they want their passive mods. Is the force stronger? Maybe, maybe, maybe. Quicker, easier, more seductive. There are some pretty solid lists out there which don't have the force. Force almost surely a lot less work, tho.

But then again, even if it doesn't necessarily dominate games, maybe it dominates listbuilding. Maybe that's enough.

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The people, they want their passive mods.

Should they? Should it matter?

6 hours ago, Hugeman said:

It just feels to me as though force is on the whole a bit under costed.

Yes it is. If you're not bringing a Force user you are short changing yourself--assuming you are a win oriented/competitive player.

In my personal experience, the moment I went from lists with 50% or more of my ships including Force users (I usu. play Imperials and Rebels) to my typical non Force using lists was when I began winning a lot more consistently.

Force is a huge boon. Whether you bump, are stressed etc. as long as you have a Force token you have a modifier to help you gain that extra bit of edge.

It's no mistake that the Worlds winning list has 3 Force enhanced ships.

2 hours ago, Endureil said:

All good points 5050, Vader and the multiple good crew platforms for the Force using crew and gunner options are what push up imperial force numbers. If the other factions had access to crew and gunner options like 5th Brother they would have better rations but its an interesting combo because even if you gave 5th Brother clones to the other factions alot of them dont have access to good carries for them like the Imperials do. Whisper, Echo and the striker aces probably account for a significant percentage of 5th brothers play time as they are great carries for him which alot of the other factions dont have an equivalent to. And by that I mean they dont have what is already a good ship with a gunner slot that you can slap 5th Brother into and super charge it up to 11 by adding a force token to an already effective platform.

You also have to look at it from the other direction, if empire had a non force Gunner that didn't require a turret maybe we would see less of 5th brother. Atm the only other Gunner they can take on a phantom or non bombing striker is BT1 and that's only if they also have Vader in the list

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Should they? Should it matter?

Well, the force is pretty good. But I guess what's going through my head is that, if the force was only OK, a lot of folks would still probably use it. I don't think all people's decisions about list building are fully about what's actually best or fully optimal. At some point, I guess it shouldn't matter.

Balance isn't perfect, but even if it was, player preferences will probably still lead to a higher-than-expected percentage of force users.

20 minutes ago, Force Majeure said:

It's no mistake that the Worlds winning list has 3 Force enhanced ships.

Didn't the runner up have none? Top 4 only had one force list left. Top 8 only had two (Olie's Imperial Aces, and Boba Fett/Fenn Rau).

Don't get me wrong, the force is very good and probably a bit too cheap. But it's not like non-force lists can't compete and can't win.

Over a dozen replies and no one has said this yet?

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

That is all. Move along, move along.

It's probably more than "just" force as it is a combination of

3 force

2+ agility (more dice = more eyeballs = more free evade results)

Which nearly fits the popular Sprites and also Vader

Less than 3 force doesn't seem to crop up as often unless you're a cheap Inqy or are packing and upgrade

1 agility makes it more difficult to exploit force, see Sith (albeit post nerf, but that was more due to Hate being silly)

So, I say we need to jack up the price of 3 force and 2+ agility specifically, to start

If it was just force being OP then you would see Ezra in the Attack shuttle (for ex.) which I never have. Undercosted aces with the force (Vader? Obi?) I can see some points adjustments up. But IMO any hard nerf to the force just hands the meta to the already-winning beef, torkil, sear swarm, quad assassins, and the like. Which may be what some want but not me personally, I do enjoy the force mechanic in general.

4 hours ago, Wiredin said:

I want Rey in a T-70 personally. We are going to be running a league soon where we place pilots in other ships.

Rey in a T-70, Vader in a Defender, Luke in an E-wing, Fenn (scum) in a Firespray, Assajj in a K-fighter...

That seems like a fun event, how do you determine points?

Edit: hmm Fenn or Talonbane in a StarViper. Boba in a Fang. Serissu, Drea, or Kavil in a Firespray. Torani in a Scurrg. Latts in Kimogila. Guri in an aggressor.

21 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

That seems like a fun event, how do you determine points?

Edit: hmm Fenn or Talonbane in a StarViper. Boba in a Fang. Serissu, Drea, or Kavil in a Firespray. Torani in a Scurrg. Latts in Kimogila. Guri in an aggressor.

Dengar in pretty much anything besides a JM5K.

3 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Dengar in pretty much anything besides a JM5K.

Dengar in Fang, Joust me!

EDIT: Which will finally allow him to be Fearless.

Thanks to all and to Svelok for providing the data I was hoping for. One extra question - if all available pilots for list building what percentage are force users.

The following is all very rough and without science but here goes.

So just over 20% of pilots used are force users but over 50% of lists have force of some kind. It appears folks are happy to pay the current premium for those “free” force mods. Jeez look at scum with 23% of lists with force and the only option really being Maul at 10pts as you rarely see Assajj.

I think fickle might be onto it also. With 2-3 agi and 3 force it just makes things hard to remove from the table. Regen adds another layer of difficulty.

Interestingly - in my experience I don’t find it as difficult to deal with say Luke, Rey or Kylo who both are at 2 force and lower agi except Kylo. Same goes for Inquisitors.

This won’t happen but in hindsight it may have been better to have all the higher end Force pilots have a base value of 2 force (at adjusted points). Then there could be a unique force upgrade that uses the force slot to upgrade to 3 force for say 8-10pts. This would require a hard choice for all the force pilots as to wether to take the extra point or a force upgrade and on which pilot if there are multiple.

Exits soap box and runs 😳 😳 .