Just now, nitrobenz said:

Is there a huge ship thing that's worded similar to Weapon Hardpoint?

Not that I have seen. Everything involving the removal or addition of upgrade slots in X-Wing outside of the T-70 and M-3A Weapons Hardpoint that I can recall, huge ship/epic included, actually use the words "slot" or "slots" in the text of the ability.

17 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

Are you sure? Where are you getting that they is such a thing as a double-missile upgrade, and that there is not such a thing as a double-missile attack?

The only references I can find in the Rules Reference(1.0.6.1) refer to single icon types for Upgrade (p20) and Special Weapon (p18). Attacks (p4&5) does not mention upgrade icons of any kind, but does reference Special Weapons which only mentions an icon in an offhand example: "Any type of upgrade card attack (such as a attack) is a special attack." (Last bullet point under Special Weapon on page 18)

If something is triggering/referencing a particular upgrade-symbol-type attack it is doing so by referencing what type of upgrade that Attack header is printed on. If there is such a thing as a "double-missile-icon" upgrade then any special attack originating from that upgrade would by extension be a "double-missile-icon" attack.

I am getting that there is such a thing as the double-missile upgrade from Barrage Rockets, which is very clearly a double missile upgrade. I am getting that there is not such a thing as a double-missile attack from the fact that there is no mention of such a thing anywhere in the X-wing rules or cards.

To go further, we have roughly one years' worth of precedent that Jonus's ability can, in fact, be used with barrage rockets, to enough effect that the components of that list were nerfed by points rather than by the rulesmakers pointing out that the abilities do not interact. I realize that this is indirect proof but it's more than enough to satisfy me; suddenly reversing the way this has been ruled for the last year and change, without input from the devs, seems quite silly to me unless the reasoning is really really really good, and here it just isn't.

11 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

As it currently stands I do not see any compelling reasons from Rules, balance, or fluff to deny Barrage Rockets to either of the two ships with the Weapon Hardpoint ship ability or to Ordnance Tubes huge ships.

In the interest of maintaining known and accepted interactions I would lean toward allowing double-icon upgrades to interact with effects and triggers that reference either of the upgrade icons.

There is one: double icon special weapons cannot be legally equipped to ships with the Weapon Hardpoint ship ability in the official FFG app.

32 minutes ago, Maui. said:

...There is one: double icon special weapons cannot be legally equipped to ships with the Weapon Hardpoint ship ability in the official FFG app.

Which is hardly a flawless example of legal list making. The app is as limited in its function as the people writing it, and we have no way of knowing if they actually consulted the devs for this particular issue. When the app was first released there was speculation that the coders may not have ever played X-wing before making the app.

32 minutes ago, Maui. said:

...I am getting that there is not such a thing as a double-missile attack from the fact that there is no mention of such a thing anywhere in the X-wing rules or cards...

There is also no mention of a single-missile-icon attack in the Rules Reference. What we have is conjecture based on a line that references a Canon-icon upgrade. The Canon-icon attack is clearly getting its type status from the Canon-icon card it is printed on, so my extrapolation is that a "double-missile" icon upgrade produces a double-missile-icon attack if "double-missile-icon" is a thing, but I lost my way through the argument: my preferred stance is icon+icon, not double-icon.

My apologies for not making my counterpoint completely clear. I think that @theBitterFig , @JBFancourt , and @meffo have the right idea by calling it a "missile-missile" or (missile)(missile) upgrade. This is an elegant solution that sidesteps the compatibility issues with icon-type attacks and gels nicely with mixed-slot upgrades.

32 minutes ago, Maui. said:

...we have roughly one years' worth of precedent that Jonus's ability can, in fact, be used with barrage rockets...

Basically, the jist of meffo's explanation is that Barrage Rockets is not a "double missile" but rather a "missile-icon and also a missile-icon" which was being represented as (missile)(missile) by them. By that interpretation BR is two upgrade types, but those just happen to both be the same type.

Meffo wrote up a good explainer of this stance in the middle of Page 2 of this thread, which I thought I was promoting, but my lack of clarity betrays me. @Maui. Please re-read that post and let me know what you think:

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

2 hours ago, Maui. said:

Because it's a double-missile-icon upgrade. Unless I'm mistaken, it is never referred to as a single-missile-icon upgrade.

If Barrage Rockets is a double-missile-icon upgrade why is it not also considered a double-missile-icon attack?

I'm sorry I tried to cajole you through my thought process without making my stance clear from the beginning: I do not think Barrage Rockets is a "double-missile-icon" upgrade, I think it is a "missile & missile" upgrade.

You are correct that Barrage Rockets is never referred to as a "single-missile-icon" upgrade, but it is also never referred to as a "double-missile-icon" upgrade either. The rules do not reference multiple-slot upgrades of any kind, and does not define how they should interact with other effects that reference only one of those two upgrades. Saying it is a missile & missile upgrade means that all of its effects (in this case an attack type) are missile-type and also missile-type.

The logical conclusion to me is that the rules do not address "double icon" upgrades so we should treat them as simultaneously-single upgrades of the two icon types.

M3A can equip Barrage Rockets...

One possible way of looking at the situation... what about other, hybrid-slot upgrades?

• Does Calibrated Laser Targeting count as both a "Configuration" AND a "Modification," or is it simply a "Configuration+Modification?"
• Is Electro-Proton Bomb count as both a "Payload" and a "Modification," or is it simply a "Payload+Modification?"

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

One possible way of looking at the situation... what about other, hybrid-slot upgrades?

• Does Calibrated Laser Targeting count as both a "Configuration" AND a "Modification," or is it simply a "Configuration+Modification?"
• Is Electro-Proton Bomb count as both a "Payload" and a "Modification," or is it simply a "Payload+Modification?"

I don't think there's a use case where it matters. NOthing in the game currently calls out equipped mods or configs, and the only things that care about things using the Payload slot care specifically about certain device types, not the slot itself (e.g. Sabine, Nym).

But that's not to say it won't in future.

3 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

One possible way of looking at the situation... what about other, hybrid-slot upgrades?

• Does Calibrated Laser Targeting count as both a "Configuration" AND a "Modification," or is it simply a "Configuration+Modification?"
• Is Electro-Proton Bomb count as both a "Payload" and a "Modification," or is it simply a "Payload+Modification?"

According to the list of cards in the upcoming Fully Loaded Devices Pack , Electro-Proton Bomb is a "Device/Modification Upgrade card". You would think this would make Barrage Rockets a Missile/Missile card, but on the Hotshots and Aces Pack page it's just listed under "Missile upgrade cards", so who knows. I'm not sure this actually clarifies anything anyway...

Barrage Rockets is 2 missile upgrades on one card.

Scyk can only equip 1 missile upgrade.

Seems to be where the no is.

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Barrage Rockets is 2 missile upgrades on one card.

Scyk can only equip 1 missile upgrade.

Seems to be where the no is.

That’s an assumption, tho, right??? It’s not stated. Hard point is just concerned with a TYPE of upgrade.

So the consideration is whether or not <missile, missile> is a missile upgrade or not.

5 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Barrage Rockets is 2 missile upgrades on one card.

Scyk can only equip 1 missile upgrade.

Seems to be where the no is.

Yes, that's what a casual reading of the cards might make you think. And also what people probably expected. The problem is that it's not what's actually written and supported by the rules, hence the discussion here.

Or, as I like to say : ''Dear lord FFG, please please hire a technical writer!'' Yes, it took the community involved more than a year to spot to particular fault in the rules, so it was obscure at best. It just means nows the time to send them a coordial email explaining and asking for clarification.

Perhaps I might have a chance at swinging it past a TO if I only put 2 and a half charges on the card....

Looking forward to putting Death Troopers on a TIE Phantom.

32 minutes ago, stuffedskullcat said:

Looking forward to putting Death Troopers on a TIE Phantom.

If the TIE Phantom would have an ability that would allow you to „equip 1 Crew upgrade“ that might be possible.

Unfortunately it hasn’t and therefore cannot equipt Death Trooper which require 2 crew upgrade symbols on the upgrade bar where it only has 1.

20 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

If the TIE Phantom would have an ability that would allow you to „equip 1 Crew upgrade“ that might be possible.

Unfortunately it hasn’t and therefore cannot equipt Death Trooper which require 2 crew upgrade symbols on the upgrade bar where it only has 1.

Yeah, I know. It was just a joke about how absurd it is that this thread might reach four pages. 😁

DO IT!!!!!!

GO BIG 4!!!!!

😜 😜 😜

Also, can we discuss that Barrage Rockets artwork is firing from a Tie Advanced x1, a ship clearly unable to equip them? This seems to be an issue with FFG lol. (they also did this with Engine upgrade showing a Kihraxz Fighter, which doesnt have a boost of any kind)

42 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Also, can we discuss that Barrage Rockets artwork is firing from a Tie Advanced x1, a ship clearly unable to equip them?

I am pretty sure that that is a TIE Aggressor

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

I am pretty sure that that is a TIE Aggressor

Ahh, you are correct. Didn't see the solar panel extend out at the back.

On 11/30/2019 at 11:15 AM, stuffedskullcat said:

Looking forward to putting Death Troopers on a TIE Phantom.

I'm now imagining stuffing Jabba into the cockpit of a HWK-290 and giggling like a loon.

so, rule change today :
Q: Can a T-70 X-wing or M-3A Interceptor equip an upgrade that requires multiple slots with its Weapon Hardpoint ship ability (such as Barrage Rockets [󲁐󲁐])?
A: No. The Weapon Hardpoint ship ability grants a ship a special upgrade slot that can be used only for one upgrade that exactly matches one of the specified icons (󲁍, 󲁏, and 󲁐, in this case).

I'm just kinda messing here, but does that mean to imply that we can't actually reload [missile missile] now?

17 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

so, rule change today :
Q: Can a T-70 X-wing or M-3A Interceptor equip an upgrade that requires multiple slots with its Weapon Hardpoint ship ability (such as Barrage Rockets [󲁐󲁐])?
A: No. The Weapon Hardpoint ship ability grants a ship a special upgrade slot that can be used only for one upgrade that exactly matches one of the specified icons (󲁍, 󲁏, and 󲁐, in this case).

I'm just kinda messing here, but does that mean to imply that we can't actually reload [missile missile] now?

The FAQ involving Jonus and Missile/Missile seems to imply that they can be reloaded.

25 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

so, rule change today :
Q: Can a T-70 X-wing or M-3A Interceptor equip an upgrade that requires multiple slots with its Weapon Hardpoint ship ability (such as Barrage Rockets [󲁐󲁐])?
A: No. The Weapon Hardpoint ship ability grants a ship a special upgrade slot that can be used only for one upgrade that exactly matches one of the specified icons (󲁍, 󲁏, and 󲁐, in this case).

I'm just kinda messing here, but does that mean to imply that we can't actually reload [missile missile] now?

What they are saying with the hard-points is (add one of these slots to your upgrade bar), effectively. So yes, they can still be reloaded.

24 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

so, rule change today :
Q: Can a T-70 X-wing or M-3A Interceptor equip an upgrade that requires multiple slots with its Weapon Hardpoint ship ability (such as Barrage Rockets [󲁐󲁐])?
A: No. The Weapon Hardpoint ship ability grants a ship a special upgrade slot that can be used only for one upgrade that exactly matches one of the specified icons (󲁍, 󲁏, and 󲁐, in this case).

(P.29 under List Building if you feel the need to look it up yourself)

Rejoice in your vindication, naysayers! 😜

25 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

I'm just kinda messing here, but does that mean to imply that we can't actually reload [missile missile] now?

They (surprisingly) did cover that in another FAQ entry! P.34 in Specific Card Questions section:

"Q: Do abilities that reference upgrades of a specific type (such as Captain Jonus' pilot ability) affect upgrades with multiple types including that type?
A: Yes. For example, Captain Jonus' pilot ability can be used with a friendly ship's Barrage Rockets [missile missile], and Paige Tico [Gunner]'s ability can be used with Electro-Proton Bomb [device mod]. Each of these upgrades has the qualifying type (missile for Barrage Rockets and device for Electro-Proton Bomb) in addition to its other type.
Note that the Weapon Hardpoint ability does not behave this way, as it grants a special upgrade slot."

Then all is well with the world, and the force is in balance. Good job to FFG for having done that!