2 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

And besides, you keep making the point that R2+3PO costs about as much as a unit of Clone troopers. Well, you can only take 6 of those. R2 is not taking their place, he's being taken in addition to the 6 Corps units that everyone is taking.

The big problem with this argument is you aren't saying that R2 + C3PO is effective. You're taking them because their aren't any other effective options (due to a bad release schedule by FFG). This will change once we have access to more trooper options / clone commandos / etc.

I just wish they were Corp so they fit into my plans for a highly ineffective Rebel army.

1 hour ago, R3dReVenge said:

But you said it yourself. You went 5-2 (you placed in the top 32). You didn't even make it to the top 16.... I do know that this is one tournament and their was a low GAR turnout, but early results agree with what I've stated. We do need more data though.

You're inferring a lot from the 5-2 that isn't there.

One of my losses (first match in round robin) I didn't even have R2, I was running double saber tank, which was not a good idea.

After I switched to O/R/R2/P2 I didn't lose until I got knocked out and that game was edge of a knife. The dice favored my opponent, not much you can do when 80% of your hits get blocked. So please, before you decry my poor tactical choices and teat me like I'm being Derrault here, perhaps you could accept that maybe you're not entirely correct and you're not yet seeing the value of this unit. Just for now. It's cool that you don't want to build with R2, but you keep insinuating that anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb, or that they win because their opponents are dumb.

Disappointed that the studio painter missed C-3POs silver leg. :P

8 minutes ago, anarchy said:

Disappointed that the studio painter missed C-3POs silver leg.

It's only silver in one movie of the many he is in.

2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Where are Republic lists coming up with an extra 35 points though, let alone the 50 needed for both of them? What squad is going without a heavy weapon so you can fit in a meh unit? What cards of Obi or Rex are you dropping to bring one of R2's? I can see why people want R2 to be a big deal, but I'm not convinced he can or will be. To easy to get one shotted by any unit, too easy to get locked up in melee and eliminated at your opponent's leisure, and when paired with Threepio, he'll take the space of an entire squad.

I think the Rebels can make use of him far, far better, with the speeder being an option for rapid deployment, and his 3 pip helping out Tauntauns, but the same can't be said for the GAR.

People are falling into the New-Shiny Syndrome . A new unit comes out (a fan favorite), and people want it to be good. They squeeze it into every list they can, hoping it will bring them some success. And it will with a small sample of games. As that pool of games grow larger, these units fall out of favor.

Example: See the T-47. Remember when people were saying the T-47 buff would "break the game". "The new meta will be people running x2 T-47s and 3 Tauntauns." Here I am just twiddling my thumbs...

2 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

You're inferring a lot from the 5-2 that isn't there.

One of my losses (first match in round robin) I didn't even have R2, I was running double saber tank, which was not a good idea.

After I switched to O/R/R2/P2 I didn't lose until I got knocked out and that game was edge of a knife. The dice favored my opponent, not much you can do when 80% of your hits get blocked. So please, before you decry my poor tactical choices and teat me like I'm being Derrault here, perhaps you could accept that maybe you're not entirely correct and you're not yet seeing the value of this unit. Just for now. It's cool that you don't want to build with R2, but you keep insinuating that anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb, or that they win because their opponents are dumb.

That's not good news and it actually invalidates a lot of the data we can take from this tournament. People can change lists each round? How can we draw conclusions about the powerlevel of units when lists are constantly being altered against a specific opponent? How unfortunate.

Let me be more specific, I'm not saying your opponents are dumb, but rather they could have made a mistake? This is similar to how Fire Support can "get people." People's lack of experience against a new unit may make the unit appear stronger. In a couple of months when we have access to more units, we'll know how strong R2 is (trust me I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong. Though it happens rarely :] ).

I always tell my friends that the Legion community is really nice, then one of those threads pops up and I'm reminded of the cruel reality.

Why does a simulator have any bearing on the real world? Games are being played with units with half rules and people are using bad/incomplete data to make gross generalizations.

29 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Why does a simulator have any bearing on the real world? Games are being played with units with half rules and people are using bad/incomplete data to make gross generalizations.

The units are still playable. I don't think I will take all of R2's cards, so his unit cards are enough (they are the same GAR and rebels). Gross generalizations are not made by competent players that use TTS to play.

2 hours ago, ResoluteHusky said:

I always tell my friends that the Legion community is really nice, then one of those threads pops up and I'm reminded of the cruel reality.

It is for the most part, some bad eggs like all communities. Just ignore them.

2 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

People are falling into the New-Shiny Syndrome . A new unit comes out (a fan favorite), and people want it to be good. They squeeze it into every list they can, hoping it will bring them some success. And it will with a small sample of games. As that pool of games grow larger, these units fall out of favor.

yeah when has a 55 point unit that can give out 2 tokens a round and provide another NTFS card and score a vp and heal 4 wounds and have 6 health with one of the smallest unit profiles in the game be bad??

2 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

yeah when has a 55 point unit that can give out 2 tokens a round and provide another NTFS card and score a vp and heal 4 wounds and have 6 health with one of the smallest unit profiles in the game be bad??

He can't fit into the incredibly meta-defining Chewie-Sabine lists out there.

2 minutes ago, ResoluteHusky said:

He can't fit into the incredibly meta-defining Chewie-Sabine lists out there.

ooh tell me more, I have never seen one played

2 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

yeah when has a 55 point unit that can give out 2 tokens a round and provide another NTFS card and score a vp and heal 4 wounds and have 6 health with one of the smallest unit profiles in the game be bad??

You’re never going to take R2s cards. Order tokens are critical on P1s to allow fire support.

A squad of clones can give out 2 tokens a turn, costs less, has red save, and can deal damage.

I’m missing your point?

2 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

You’re never going to take R2s cards. Order tokens are critical on P1s to allow fire support.

A squad of clones can give out 2 tokens a turn, costs less, has red save, and can deal damage.

I’m missing your point?

yeah you only responded to half of what I said. I already maxed out 6 corps, show me another unit that can do that. Can A phase I trooper run into an enemy deployment zone and win me the game? Can a phase I trooper give me NTFS as a 3 pip command card? you are missing a lot of clear synergies in your crude evaluation.

8 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Where are Republic lists coming up with an extra 35 points though, let alone the 50 needed for both of them? What squad is going without a heavy weapon so you can fit in a meh unit? What cards of Obi or Rex are you dropping to bring one of R2's? I can see why people want R2 to be a big deal, but I'm not convinced he can or will be. To easy to get one shotted by any unit, too easy to get locked up in melee and eliminated at your opponent's leisure, and when paired with Threepio, he'll take the space of an entire squad.

I think the Rebels can make use of him far, far better, with the speeder being an option for rapid deployment, and his 3 pip helping out Tauntauns, but the same can't be said for the GAR.

You need r2's 3 pip. you need relay. 55 points. Comp list A: https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/1fzkd0jb00,1fz00gj00,3gyhp000,1gy0000,1fyikjbda00,1jhdp,1jj,1gwdtdwczdf,hj,in,ju,kb,ir

Comp list B: https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/2fz00jb00,4gyhp000,1fyikjbda00,1jhdp,1jj,1gwdtdwczdf,hj,jt,in,ju,kb,ir

Casual list (without phase IIs): https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/5gyhp000,1fyikjbda00,1jhdp,1jj,1gwdtdwczdf,1gy0000,hj,jt,in,ju,kb,ir

6 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

That's not good news and it actually invalidates a lot of the data we can take from this tournament. People can change lists each round?

You can change lists (but not faction) in the round robin phase (5 games). The lists for each game are submitted with the score.
The top two players from each round robin group advance to the big dance as it were.
At that point you submit a list and you are locked in for the remainder of the tournament.
The top 1/3 of players were given a first round bye. That led to 2 rounds of 32 players. then dropping by half each round after that in their brackets.
As to whether or not the data gather is useful I'll direct you to TalkPolite.

And like I said, it's cool you're not impressed, but maybe don't denigrate people who are reaching a different conclusion than you at this time. Trust me, if R2 starts underperfroming for me I'll drop it in a heartbeat. So far though the unit has more than carried its weight.
To a couple of your other points: I have yet to see R2 get one shotted. That's not to say it can't happen, but it's not a foregone conclusion. (I've had my occupier get one shotted in round one, so yeah dice are dicey.) So if you're gonna shoot, you better kill because you might not get another chance.
As to melee, R2 does have a suppressive melee/range 1 weapon so now you've got to be sure you're going after it with something that has courage 2 or better because you're probably going to be outside of your commander bubble.

A little breakdown here. There are currently 21* imperial units/unit configurations that average 4 or more wounds per shot and 16 rebel units/configurations. And that's with no cover. Put in light cover and you drop to 13 imp and 5 rebel. Moving to heavy cover and there are 8 imperial units/configurations that average 4 wounds per shot and no rebel units that do that.

(*I have not run the numbers for anything GAR, CIS or shores, rebel vets, tauntauns or dewbacks. They are not included in this)

Thank goodness there are enough of us filthy casuals out here who are going to love running R2 & 3PO even though they are not Tauntaun level pieces... 🙄

Keep ‘em coming, FFG!

5 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

A little breakdown here. There are currently 21* imperial units/unit configurations that average 4 or more wounds per shot and 16 rebel units/configurations. And that's with no cover. Put in light cover and you drop to 13 imp and 5 rebel. Moving to heavy cover and there are 8 imperial units/configurations that average 4 wounds per shot and no rebel units that do that.

(*I have not run the numbers for anything GAR, CIS or shores, rebel vets, tauntauns or dewbacks. They are not included in this)

Just curious, what range is that at? Most of those seem like close range units, which won’t happen in most games (like deathtroopers range 2). I like looking at longest range potential of the unit with heavy and then with the whole squad, for better accuracy in real games.

4 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Just curious, what range is that at?

Depends on the unit. Tanks and X-34 speeders can do it at longer ranges than Death Troopers or fleet troopers.

I refer you to this chart

When I made it I was calculating the point cost per average damage on each unit for a basic measure of offensive efficiency. It has a breakdown of all possible configurations (bodies and weapons, not other upgrades) for each unit. I have also not had an opportunity to update it to reflect Clones, Droids, Creature Troopers, Detachment units or the points balance.

20 hours ago, ResoluteHusky said:

I always tell my friends that the Legion community is really nice, then one of those threads pops up and I'm reminded of the cruel reality.

Well to be fair this is also the Internet, the worst show up here and mix in with the rest. The best are too busy having fun at the game store and bringing more people in to bother here.

The in person community I’ve met has been great! It’s just a shame the stars have misaligned so I don’t see them much.

16 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

You’re never going to take R2s cards. Order tokens are critical on P1s to allow fire support.

A squad of clones can give out 2 tokens a turn, costs less, has red save, and can deal damage.

If you’re not taking him instead of clones due to list restrictions, seems silly to compare them.

I say slap comms relay on the droid for just 5 more points and take some of his cards you may want for shenanigans, then comm relay off the r2 order to a P1 nearby. Best of both worlds.

15 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

You need r2's 3 pip. you need relay. 55 points. Comp list A: https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/1fzkd0jb00,1fz00gj00,3gyhp000,1gy0000,1fyikjbda00,1jhdp,1jj,1gwdtdwczdf,hj,in,ju,kb,ir

Comp list B: https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/2fz00jb00,4gyhp000,1fyikjbda00,1jhdp,1jj,1gwdtdwczdf,hj,jt,in,ju,kb,ir

Casual list (without phase IIs): https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/5gyhp000,1fyikjbda00,1jhdp,1jj,1gwdtdwczdf,1gy0000,hj,jt,in,ju,kb,ir

Each list has at least one heavy-less corps unit, and the first two has a pair of them. If you're going to strip units down to just token generators, why do you really need another unit to act as a token generator? Why not just spend the rest of the points on filling out units that you need? If R2 was a few points cheaper, and could fill in for the extra troopers in Evan's RPQ list, I'd be tempted, but to have to drop extra command upgrades to fit in a unit that might be useful, but will probably have minimal impact is annoying. To drop a corps unit's main fire power to fit in yet another token generator? No thanks.

Additionally, you're dropping General Kenobi, Surge Token extravaganza, to fit in a card that allows for a free speed 1 move. OK, why? You have to spend a fair amount of points to get this "free move" (unit plus comms relay) and to do so you're giving up a card that is almost guaranteed (at least with Phase Is) to allow you to hit harder/stay alive better) to do so. You're paying extra for pre-Tauntaun NTFS. That's not a bad card, but it's also not a broken, "my goodness, why can't everyone see how awesome this is?" level of play.

20 hours ago, ResoluteHusky said:

I always tell my friends that the Legion community is really nice, then one of those threads pops up and I'm reminded of the cruel reality.

I guess I'm confused about what's making this thread especially "cruel"? It seems to be a fair discussion about the merits of a unit, with differing opinions. What's wrong with that? Other than some generalizations about the point of the discussion (for instance, the "filthy casuals" comment seems to miss the point completely; no one is saying you can't run the droids, just that they aren't some magic wand that'll solve all of the GAR's problems), things seem relatively tame.

14 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

(for instance, the "filthy casuals" comment seems to miss the point completely; no one is saying you can't run the droids, just that they aren't some magic wand that'll solve all of the GAR's problems)

My X-wing gaming group embraces that term so hard it’s actually what we are called, so I don’t see any offensiveness in it

Sorry, diversion I saw there and couldn’t ignore it.

Honestly? I don’t know what’s “good” in Legion. I only dabble in it when I have time because I love painting Star Wars minis. I’m sure there’s all sorts of reasons to tell me the droids are no good. I also know that for the longest time nobody thought Saboteurs were any good until that one mega triple Sab list rocked the boat. I’m not sure if the droids are actually “bad” or if someone just hasn’t discovered the magic combo-wing to make them good.

The more I look at them, more I want to give them a shot even if it’ll fail. I’m wondering if they make a poor man’s fire support surge battery - have r2 trying to do his thing while clones are near him being shot at (inconspicuous). Have him attack with his range 1 prod (or the 2 pip spray weapon for better effect) and have a nearby clone fire support him, so the clones get the surge to hit they otherwise lose out on.

As long as you can keep a suppression on R2, he won’t be shot up. Will this trick break the game or give you a win? Probably not. Will it be hilarious to proc? Yes. Will it be better than a standard clone shot? Probably - surge helps, and this won’t eat two clone activations so your other five clones are free to do what they need to.

48 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Each list has at least one heavy-less corps unit, and the first two has a pair of them. If you're going to strip units down to just token generators, why do you really need another unit to act as a token generator? Why not just spend the rest of the points on filling out units that you need? If R2 was a few points cheaper, and could fill in for the extra troopers in Evan's RPQ list, I'd be tempted, but to have to drop extra command upgrades to fit in a unit that might be useful, but will probably have minimal impact is annoying. To drop a corps unit's main fire power to fit in yet another token generator? No thanks.

Additionally, you're dropping General Kenobi, Surge Token extravaganza, to fit in a card that allows for a free speed 1 move. OK, why? You have to spend a fair amount of points to get this "free move" (unit plus comms relay) and to do so you're giving up a card that is almost guaranteed (at least with Phase Is) to allow you to hit harder/stay alive better) to do so. You're paying extra for pre-Tauntaun NTFS. That's not a bad card, but it's also not a broken, "my goodness, why can't everyone see how awesome this is?" level of play.

The points I will address here:

1. No heavies on 2 units

2. too much token generation

3. r2 is too expensive at 55 points

4. Missing General Kenobi for NTFS

(note to “filthy casuals”, NTFS is No Time For Sorrows, leia’s 2 pip, one of the best command cards in the game)

Points, Activation count, map control, dpt, win conditions. These are tenets of legion lists. Everyone has 800 points to work with and clones are currently the hardest faction to build with because of their initial price.
Activation counts in competitive lists range from 12-8. In a vacuum, 12 acts is a strict upgrade to 8 acts. This list has 9, which beats out only one type of list, which is fellow GAR lists at 8. Even palp gets 9-10. I believe that 9 activations is a minimum required for 800 point lists.
The lists I posted are missing some heavies because of points. I need 9 activations and I also really want 2 phase IIs to get those surge tokens every turn. I could downgrade them to all phase Is, but I would lose a lot of value while only gaining maybe 1 z-6 back.
Too much token generation. Never heard of it. Even 2 token generation units can give me a standby to use with my big guns units. I lose nothing while allowing myself to not bring those expensive heavies. I bring r2 for the option for a vp, for a fantastic command card and the super value of 2 tokens generated. I can give kenobi a dodge token for goodness sakes!

I have heard you repeat yourself and say “r2 has no value”. I think that you are not looking at him correctly. You have to examine every facet of r2. He gives you an option for a vp, he has 10 health assuming no 1 shot, he has a super small profile, so he can sneak in the open while being hidden, and he has a turn where 2 units can get speed 1 moves. That is bonkers! Let’s say you bring sab the vaps or recover the supplies. Scouting Party with Rex, Obi and r2. Now you have a. R2 halfway Across any map, kenobi sitting very close to a mid objective and Rex sitting on another one with 2 aims! You then drop r2s 3 pip to have kenobi take the mid objective and you have very good order control. You can pull kenobi first and have him capture and move, bring force reflexes on him so he can survive the round and take the game.
NTFS is fantastic, general kenobi is a ton of surges, which for the most part are only used for defense, which is fine, surge tokens are good, but I already have 2 per round, I have aggT for my Rex cards, I don’t think I need a 3 pip with 20 surge tokens. 3 pips are early game cards(like 1-3 normally, but this is an oversimplification for point) I want the ability to “gain an extra activation” by going last for the first few rounds and as a clone player, I do not want to make contact with other units for as long as possible.
quite a bit of a ramble, but I am tired and I am trying to type this on my phone, so it might be unclear in some parts.

The issue isn't too many tokens being generated, but rather too many token generators; that leaves you with relatively few front line units. In military terms, your tooth-to-tail ratio is getting imbalanced. All it takes is a bad defensive roll on one of your heavy weapons squads and you've lost a very large chunk of your fighting force. Rebels can get away with running naked corps units because they have a lot of other heavy hitters out there, but the same can't be said for the GAR.

In regards to activations, I agree that in a vacuum, more activations is better, but outside of that vacuum, it's not always the case. Clones can and do trash higher activation lists because the quality of their individual units are higher, and thus they're able (sometimes) to kill faster than they can be killed themselves. Doing anything to compromise that, like the problems I mention above, is not a good idea, in my opinion.

As for "R2 has no value," no, I've never said that. If that's the impression I've given, I'm sorry. What I'm saying, to make it clear for everyone, is that I don't believe what you said on Facebook, that R2 is an "auto include," especially for the GAR. There are flaws with running him, compromises you'll have to make to include him. Where you focus on the benefits, and if everything works out almost perfectly for you (the 10 health thing, for instance) I'm looking at what can go wrong. Something like NTFS is great, as it can help you push up, but that can also leave you exposed. As I pointed out on Discord yesterday, pushing two clone units as far up as people were talking on round 1 is a great way to loose to corps units right off the bat when your opponent just focus fires you. Will that always happen? Of course not. There are times when that strategy might be perfectly valid and the key to victory, but it's not the one size fits all, "auto include" some claim.

Now, I'll say that I could quite possibly be completely wrong about this. I didn't think Tauntauns would be particularly great (mostly because I didn't think agile would happen every single freaking move, and I didn't realize Ram would stack with itself), so maybe I'm as off base here as I was there, but only time will tell.

@Alpha17 I think we are 2 poles on one issue, so it will most likely be somewhere from "auto include" to not particularly great It is most likely too early to say one way or the other