Matt Cary's thoughts on the Summer points change for The Resistance and The First Order. Check out it here, and let us know if you agree or disagree.
[Blog] The Points Change: A Closer Look Part 4 - The Sequel Factions.
No on dropping Kylo. Instead he should probably stay put, or increase 1, while other force users go up more. Instead, drop the generics a bit. FO lists with him will still come out stronger after the change with a better selection of wingmen.
if you dont think A needs to be changed but you're nerfing optics, you're nerfing the A. Two die attacks are bad; optics make them a lot more reliable
the other tech options simply aren't ever going to be competitive at their cost
Edited by ficklegreendice39 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:if you dont think A needs to be changed but you're nerfing optics, you're nerfing the A.
For example, if I say TIE Bombers are fine, but Barrage Rockets need to go up, then of course I am nerfing the Bombers. But it isn't the chassis that is the problem, but the upgrade.
The same applies here, but it also affects the TIE/sf in a manner that needs addressed as well. R ather than increasing every ship that might take Adv Optics, we can just increase that tech upgrade.
Saying that other options aren't viable because of their costs is more of a negative indictment against those costs than an argument to keep Adv. Optics at its cost.
Edited by 5050Saint44 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:if you dont think A needs to be changed but you're nerfing optics, you're nerfing the A. Two die attacks are bad; optics make them a lot more reliable
the other tech options simply aren't ever going to be competitive at their cost
This seems to ignore the elephant in the room: why do missiles suck so bad? Sure, the lock is hard to get, but if the cost wasn't so monstrous, it would be worth taking as often as not. At present, it's just a waste of points. AO is a tad cheap, or at least it's very strong. I don't think it really needs a nerf, but we should see some other things to help our poor 2-primary buddies out.
It's like the quandary with Heroic: You could nerf it to match the rest, or you could buff the rest to match it. For pilots I tend to prefer the former, for upgrades, the latter is often the better choice, at least in the current state of the game.
5 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:For example, if I say TIE Bombers are fine, but Barrage Rockets need to go up, then of course I am nerfing the Bombers. But it isn't the chassis that is the problem, but the upgrade.
I'm all in favor of keeping Barrage where it's at; it's a pretty mindless sort of munition, and Jonus swarms are extraordinarily boring. But if Homing and Ion were down to 3 or 4, and Clusters and Concussions were more like 4 or 5, we'd probably see a lot more ships taking missiles, even ones that traditionally struggle with locks.
Would this break the TIE/sf and the TIE/v1? Probably not. Most of their strength comes from Jendon, FCS, and PS, which all probably deserve a nerf anyway (especially Passive Sensors – a point or two would do it). Generic Inquisitors probably also deserve a nerf in their own right. After you fix the problem parts, some more options come out to play.
1 hour ago, Cerebrawl said:No on dropping Kylo. Instead he should probably stay put, or increase 1, while other force users go up more. Instead, drop the generics a bit. FO lists with him will still come out stronger after the change with a better selection of wingmen.
Also, 100% agree. He's in over 70% of First Order lists. That doesn't mean he's underpriced per se , but he's also been doing substantially above average, on par with the Jedi.
Again, buffing some other stuff in First Order means that all but the most efficient Kylo lists would still be legal, but lists without Kylo would all be stronger, encouraging more variety of play. I honestly think he's holding the faction back; they're afraid to buff other stuff for fear of what that will do for him.
29 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:
This seems to ignore the elephant in the room: why do missiles suck so bad? Sure, the lock is hard to get, but if the cost wasn't so monstrous, it would be worth taking as often as not. At present, it's just a waste of points. AO is a tad cheap, or at least it's very strong. I don't think it really needs a nerf, but we should see some other things to help our poor 2-primary buddies out.
problem is rz-2s aren't SFs
wouldn't bother with missiles you can't shoot out the butt!
51 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:I'm all in favor of keeping Barrage where it's at; it's a pretty mindless sort of munition, and Jonus swarms are extraordinarily boring. But if Homing and Ion were down to 3 or 4, and Clusters and Concussions were more like 4 or 5, we'd probably see a lot more ships taking missiles, even ones that traditionally struggle with locks.
You and I are in accord on missiles (Barrage Rockets were just for the example). I plan to do a generic upgrades article this time around and it will have a one point reduction on all lock needing missiles minimum.
Edited by 5050Saint16 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:problem is rz-2s aren't SFs
wouldn't bother with missiles you can't shoot out the butt!
I mean, neither are Z-95s. That advantage is sort of baked into the cost of the SF in the first place. But all A-Wings and Z-95s, and even shps like the Kimogila, Scyk, Aggressor, Torrent, and TIE Bomber would love to see a nice cheap way to get a third die if they survive the first pass. Currently it's throwing good points after bad, but it wouldn't be that way if, for example, homing and cluster missiles were around 3-4 points, or concussions were around 4-5. Ion is trash for anything above 2-3, just because it's rarely even worth the lock it takes to get. Even an Ion Cannon would hardly be good at 3 points, and that always works.
I do like that in this meta, we've seen that missiles can be good. Currently it's strictly limited to Jendon and Passive Sensors, which are underpriced by a point or two. Up those by one or two and take those one or two off of each missile and we might see a lot more diversity there. I'd love for missiles to be scary at last, or at least an interesting option to consider. Currently it's pretty much torps or bust.
thing is, the RZ-2 A-wing is made around its swanky arc shenanigans and the missiles run counter to that
I don't think it'd ever use missiles on account of the fact that they don't help its central gimmick
Edited by ficklegreendiceEven though TIE/sf is probably my favorite ship, I don't dislike a shifting around of points on it. I'd love to see non-QD Gunner SFs become cheaper. Not sure I'd go for the full 2 points, might just suggest 1 (particularly if suggesting that Optics go up). That'd put the Zeta and Omega at 33/35, same as the Blue/Green RZ-2s at 33/35. The two ships are close enough in power that I think they ought to cost the same. SF doesn't have to worry about turret placement, is a little tougher, and has full access to their white moves (which include some useful slow ones). A-Wings have access to Boost, and that's a huge thing for mobility.
But while good, they're also not really destroying the meta. There was a big A-Wing Fad for a while, but it also was kind of on it's way out (Jedi green dice too consistent) when the nerf game in. These are certainly playable generics, but not really winning big events. An Optics SF really doesn't need a 3 points per ship nerf. When I write it out like that, it seems like a very extreme nerf, and not really warranted.
//
As to upgrades, I'd be far more aggressive with Primed Thrusters pricing. I'd make it considerably cheaper at lower initiative (2 points at Init 1?) , but keep it mostly the same at higher Initiative (8-9 at 5, 9-10 at 6). Probably Init 4 is where I'd have Primed Thrusters and Pattern Analyzer the same price.
For low initiative ships, it's not that easy to abuse movement actions while stressed. Certainly there's a lot of tricks Poe or Kylo can do with them, but on a cheap generic, it'll almost always be better to just take Pattern Analyzer and take a focus. But if PT got really cheap on low-Init stuff, that'd just be fun. BB/Primed on a Blue T-70 would be a cool ship. Init 1 generic so it'll never be too important, but fun. Tossing Primed on generic TIEs would be cool, and balanced by the fact that they couldn't get Optics anymore.
It'd also open up the generic Silencer some. Having 53 points for a Sienar-Jaemus Engineer who could boost/roll while stressed would be kinda sweet, and again, more fun than strong. It'd be a nice niche for the ship.
Edited by theBitterFig2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:Jendon, FCS, and PS, which all probably deserve a nerf anyway (especially Passive Sensors – a point or two would do it).
Jendon, to be sure. He's got a pretty game-changing text. DRK-1 Probes cost 5 points; Jendon only pays +3 over the OGP Lambda and gets an Initiative bump rolled in.
FCS? Eh, maybe. I don't think they're too much of a problem in general, though.
Passive Sensors... I'm actually mostly surprised with Passive Sensors. I'd been really afraid of them before release. It's nearly 1e Deadeye for anything with a System Slot. But it's worked out to be totally fine on generics. PS Gunboats haven't really taken off, and it's mostly been confined to Vader for shenanigans, Phantoms because why not take it over TC, and generic TIE SFs where I'd suggest that the difference between Passive/Missile and Gunner builds is pretty trivial (I'd rather buff the gunner to bring more parity in costs).
Personally, I don't think Phantoms should have been allowed to equip it: the fact that Passive Sensors doesn't require you to have a Lock action on your bar was just plain stupidity from FFG. I'd errata that, and then it's just a Vader issue. I mean, some upgrades have gotten nerfs when mostly fair on other ships, but it often feels kinda bad.
Maybe there's a theoretical narrow errata to PS that cuts off action-chaining while the charge is spent (can only perform Lock and Calculate actions?). That doesn't really stop them from functioning in their basic "intended" function, but does limit shenanigans.
4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:PS Gunboats haven't really taken off, and it's mostly been confined to Vader for shenanigans, Phantoms because why not take it over TC, and generic TIE SFs where I'd suggest that the difference between Passive/Missile and Gunner builds is pretty trivial (I'd rather buff the gunner to bring more parity in costs).
I still think it's underpriced, if only a little. The reason is that missiles are overpriced, but PS platforms are using them anyway. It's a steal on Vader, and it's akin to Targeting Computer on the Phantom, but that's not my issue with it. My issue is that it makes all ships with sensor slots better munitions carriers than ships without sensor slots, for a fairly negligible price. I'm concerned that dropping the missiles down even a point or two would make the TIE/sf completely busted in numbers. Like all the worst lists, they no longer have to make choices about what to include; they just get everything.
If we look at existing lock-granting upgrades:
• Instinctive Aim is pretty bad because you're spending your mod to get a shot that won't be much better than just using it.
• Synchronized Console still requires someone else to get the lock, then pass it off to you. If they spend it, you don't get it.
• Targeting Synchronizer is very sad. Not only does it not actually give you the lock, it's also crazy expensive.
And the problem with all of these is that they do nothing for traditionally missile-dependent platforms like the Kihraxz, Scyk, Z-95, A-Wings, K-Wing, TIE Bomber, TIE Aggressor, and so on. They can invest even more heavily in Torpedoes, but that makes it an even bigger shame when they blow up with all charges still in the tubes.
Edited by ClassicalMoser52 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:My issue is that it makes all ships with sensor slots better munitions carriers than ships without sensor slots, for a fairly negligible price. I'm concerned that dropping the missiles down even a point or two would make the TIE/sf completely busted in numbers. Like all the worst lists, they no longer have to make choices about what to include; they just get everything.
I can understand that.
1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:• Instinctive Aim is pretty bad because you're spending your mod to get a shot that won't be much better than just using it.
Thinking about this for a sec. Instinctive Aim Inquisitor = 36 + Missile. Passive Sensors Barron of the Empire = 35 + Missile. I think I'd still rather have the IA Inquisitor for the extra point, but if I can find the 38 + Missile for a Passive Sensors Inquisitor, seems worth.
1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:• Synchronized Console still requires someone else to get the lock, then pass it off to you. If they spend it, you don't get it.
SynCon is kind of a nifty upgrade, but I don't know that it really works great for missiles. If it was just on, say, a few 7B Jedi, I think it's a handy efficiency upgrade. 2 points per ship in a 3-ship list for some lock coordinate shenanigans? Sounds OK. Using it to launch a squad of missiles? Yeah, I'm not sure that'll ever really make sense.
1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:• Targeting Synchronizer is very sad. Not only does it not actually give you the lock, it's also crazy expensive.
Yeah, the price is so bad on Targeting Synchronizer. Two Passive Sensors is just more effective.
Yet, Targeting Synchronizer is potentially kinda scary. The fact that 6 points enables any amount of ordnance scales up really well. It's trash in 200 point games (and probably still trash in Epic...), but it's easy to imagine it being nutty. Seems like kind of a mistake of a card, almost. At least each ship needs it's own Passive Sensors.
14 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:Also, 100% agree. He's in over 70% of First Order lists. That doesn't mean he's underpriced per se , but he's also been doing substantially above average, on par with the Jedi.
No he's not in over 70% of lists
@Brunas numbers:
Not sure where this number is coming from. I see 390 FO lists, 206 Kylos, and 205 Quickdraws, or just a little under 53%.
Obviously that's still a comically high number, and getting close to 7B counts at 67% (490/731). But, it seems odd to single out Kylo out and not Quickdraw and they're virtually identical, and of course Quickdraw isn't an aethersprite. I suspect it's because these are the highest "orange numbers" you can get in the faction with a price that isn't the punchline of a bad joke.
Edited by Deffly18 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:Also, 100% agree. He's in over 70% of First Order lists. That doesn't mean he's underpriced per se , but he's also been doing substantially above average, on par with the Jedi.
Again, buffing some other stuff in First Order means that all but the most efficient Kylo lists would still be legal, but lists without Kylo would all be stronger, encouraging more variety of play. I honestly think he's holding the faction back; they're afraid to buff other stuff for fear of what that will do for him.
As @Deffly points out, he isn't in 70% of FO lists.
The real issue is that the FO have four ships to choose from. The TIE/fo lacks punching power or a force-multiplier to see heavy usage, so broadly doesn't see play. That leaves us with three platforms. The shuttle pilots are largely too pricey, or have odd abilities which don't play well with the rest of the faction (Captain Cardinal, anyone?), giving you the choice between Tavson or the generic. The /sf really carries the faction, with the generics being solid and useful in a variety of set ups, and the named pilots being strong. The Silencer suffers because it is the only 'ace' like ship in the faction, with strong mobility. However, to get the most of that you need to be high initiative, and Blackout's costing, ability and lack of action economy makes him awkward to use. By contrast, Kylo carrying two force points gives him semi-reliable dice modification outside of actions, allowing him to use his actions for re-positioning without stress. This means that Kylo features often, as he has little to no competition for his niche, which is ever present because the First Order simply can't field certain types of list well.
If you want to see more variety out of the First Order, they need more ships and new pilots (with strong/interesting abilities), not Kylo having his legs broken.
20 hours ago, Deffly said:Not sure where this number is coming from. I see 390 FO lists, 206 Kylos, and 205 Quickdraws, or just a little under 53%.
I stand corrected. Maybe he doesn’t need a nerf after all.
49 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:I stand corrected. Maybe he doesn’t need a nerf after all.
It's more just a general lack of options in the faction.
Kylo and Blackout are the only high I manourverable acey ships.
You can generally only fit one into a list so who would you prefer?
Once the /ba comes out there will hopefully be a bit more variety on FO lists.