Without further delay:

• Darth Vader: Hate, Passive Sensors, Afterburners;
• Duchess: Elusive, Fifth Brother, Targeting Computer;
• Grand Inquisitor: Fire-Control System, Proton Rockets/Ion Missiles

Idea is, Vader is doing Vader things and with Passives he doesn't care about bid and going second. Duchess is the nimble flanking tool, becoming quite deadly with a Target Lock on her action bar. Inquisitor is meant to be the additional chisel to poke into cracks created by Vader and Duchess. Plan is to either grab a Lock at Range 3 and move into Range 1-2 for a Barrel Roll/Boost > Focus for Protons with double mods or have the option to Ionise a target with a splash of Ion Missiles. Either additional damage or bit of a double tap setup.

What do you guys think?

28 minutes ago, Schanez said:

Vader is doing Vader things and with Passives he doesn't care about bid and going second.

He doesn't, but at the same time Passive Sensors has its flaws relative to Fire Control: you get no turn-on-turn action economy benefit from a 'retained' lock, and since you spend your action to trigger passive sensors, you get no benefit between the point you activate and the point you engage - you can spend force to generate an extra token at that point, but if you find yourself receiving fire at I7 or at I6 from someone with the First Player token, you (a) won't have a focus token to protect yourself with, and (b) if you burn force to generate the equivalent effect you mess up your ability to generate one when it is your turn to engage.

I'm not saying Passive Sensors are bad, but they do have downsides I think some people overlook.

Secondly, with two Initiative 5 aces, I'd suggest the bid is more important there; it's far, far more likely you'll find yourself facing other I5 ships than other I6 ships, and both the Inquisitor and Duchess are flimsy in a way the 5-hit, agility 3, force-regenerating Darth Vader isn't. Plus, in a putative I5-on-I5 duel, Proton Rockets will potentially struggle to get a shot and you've invested quite a few points into them.

Ion Missiles aren't bad - they give a TIE/v1 effective range 3 fire at minimal outlay - but the odds of actually landing ion tokens is pretty low since it requires multiple uncancelled hits off a 3-dice attack. They feel a bit redundant with the Grand Inquisitor's pilot ability.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

He doesn't, (...) Grand Inquisitor's pilot ability.

It's a lot of valuable insight and points I have been battling in my own head for some time now.

I do love FCS on Vader, as it allows him to preserve Force Charges between turns. On the other hand, I fully understand the idea, of taking Passive Sensors and going for First Player and linking the Lock into Barrel Roll to dodge potential arcs. What troubles me, is the fact, even without Missiles on Inquisitor, the bid is too small for Jedi Aces. Thus my ships might often find themselves without targets to lock, potentially losing the first engagement.

As for the Grand Inquisitor, I am liking the idea of his mobility linked into a Focus, which is required for the Rockets themselves. And 5 Dice beats 3 any time, especially with a Lock and Focus behind them.

The only ship I am fully happy about, is the Duchess. Targeting Computer is what I felt she was lacking for me.

Regarding Vader, I fully admit that I do not know if either FCS or PS are distinctly better than the other. As @Magnus Grendel made clear, each have different merit and flaws.

Regarding GrInky, tbh, I still can't figure out how he's good, but he seems to be lol. FCS is likely the best choice, but I wonder if you wouldn't get more mileage out of Concs for sheer, range-various damage?

Regarding Duchess, I love her. 5th Bro absolutely deserves to be there, but I feel like on top of that, Predator is where its at. She's cheaper, still has a source of rerolls (which she, with her astonishing maneuverability, should be able to get reliably), and can have a token for defense or a roll to dodge

13 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

Regarding Duchess, I love her. 5th Bro absolutely deserves to be there, but I feel like on top of that, Predator is where its at. She's cheaper, still has a source of rerolls (which she, with her astonishing maneuverability, should be able to get reliably), and can have a token for defense or a roll to dodge

I think both layouts work. Elusive is a really good pick for a TIE/sk - it's cheap (which is good for an ultimately expendable fighter) and wants you to be pulling red moves a lot. Her Grace has the most insanely flexible red dial in the game, with 'flip around' red moves ranging from an effective speed 1 to speed 4 and from a straight line to a 90' turn. Add in the Force, giving her focus-to-evade modification even without an action, and she can be surprisingly tough.

I think I'd agree that I'd rather have predator than targeting computer, and if buying only Fifth brother and one other upgrade I'd go for that, but the advantage of the modification is leaving the talent slot free for elusive. By comparison, if giving Predator Duchess a modification I'd be looking at Afterburners, which is as expensive as both upgrades combined....

23 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think both layouts work. Elusive is a really good pick for a TIE/sk - it's cheap (which is good for an ultimately expendable fighter) and wants you to be pulling red moves a lot. Her Grace has the most insanely flexible red dial in the game, with 'flip around' red moves ranging from an effective speed 1 to speed 4 and from a straight line to a 90' turn. Add in the Force, giving her focus-to-evade modification even without an action, and she can be surprisingly tough.

I think I'd agree that I'd rather have predator than targeting computer, and if buying only Fifth brother and one other upgrade I'd go for that, but the advantage of the modification is leaving the talent slot free for elusive. By comparison, if giving Predator Duchess a modification I'd be looking at Afterburners, which is as expensive as both upgrades combined...

14 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

Regarding Vader, I fully admit that I do not know if either FCS or PS are distinctly better than the other. As @Magnus Grendel made clear, each have different merit and flaws.

Regarding GrInky, tbh, I still can't figure out how he's good, but he seems to be lol. FCS is likely the best choice, but I wonder if you wouldn't get more mileage out of Concs for sheer, range-various damage?

Regarding Duchess, I love her. 5th Bro absolutely deserves to be there, but I feel like on top of that, Predator is where its at. She's cheaper, still has a source of rerolls (which she, with her astonishing maneuverability, should be able to get reliably), and can have a token for defense or a roll to dodge

My two ideas for "Duchess" are as such:

• Predator, Shield Upgrade, Fifth Brother
• Elusive, Targeting Computer, Fifth Brother

The reason for such is, that I feel she requires a bit of defensive bonus. While Afterburners on her are amazing, nothing like pulling a 135° turns in this wide, swooping arc followed with a barrel roll or focus. But from what I have played her so far, I fail to line up that bullseye too often to reliably reroll with Predator. And she just loves to drop four dice with three blanks and a focus. Thus I went for Targeting Computer and Elusive. When in peril, she can charge away, Evade and have a Force and reroll. Her Ailerons also allow her for 12 different turn around maneuvers, with one of them being a 1 sloop.

Meta wise, is think the list is lacking a bit :
The strength of the empire is that you have 2 real I6 ace at decent price in the faction. No other faction can really compete with you there, so you should play to your strength. If you do 1 I6, 2 I5, then you start getting into the I5 bidding war that every faction can participate in. Most list (other than empire) that plays triple ace, will usually have 2 I5 pilot, usually with hefty bid. And some list like Boba/Gury are entirely made up off I5 and bid :P. If you don't want your (very) fragile ace to get outflown by I5, I think you need to consider one of the followings :

Have a bigger bid. That usually means 10 points at the very minimum, to have a chance to even out with other ace list with bids. That usually means removing hate, replacing passive with FCS, and taking a cheaper missile instead of procket.

Have sense. If yor dislike bids for the crutch that they are, then one option is to take sense on someone with lots of force (usually vader). You can then bid less, and that will also serves as utility for you other ships in your list : your I5 can now react to other I6 before they move. Usually really good with both duchess and GrandInq. But, it's less versatile ; you can only sense 1 ship per turn, and usually need to expand a resource to do so, meaning that it's ultimately harder to use.

Just play the meta, put soontir on the table! With pred, crack, targeting computer all being good pick on him, and even hull or shield upgrade seeing some play, there's plenty of way to customize your soontir to do the things you like.

3 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

Meta wise, is think the list is lacking a bit :
The strength of the empire is that you have 2 real I6 ace at decent price in the faction. No other faction can really compete with you there, so you should play to your strength. If you do 1 I6, 2 I5, then you start getting into the I5 bidding war that every faction can participate in. Most list (other than empire) that plays triple ace, will usually have 2 I5 pilot, usually with hefty bid. And some list like Boba/Gury are entirely made up off I5 and bid :P. If you don't want your (very) fragile ace to get outflown by I5, I think you need to consider one of the followings :

Have a bigger bid. That usually means 10 points at the very minimum, to have a chance to even out with other ace list with bids. That usually means removing hate, replacing passive with FCS, and taking a cheaper missile instead of procket.

Have sense. If yor dislike bids for the crutch that they are, then one option is to take sense on someone with lots of force (usually vader). You can then bid less, and that will also serves as utility for you other ships in your list : your I5 can now react to other I6 before they move. Usually really good with both duchess and GrandInq. But, it's less versatile ; you can only sense 1 ship per turn, and usually need to expand a resource to do so, meaning that it's ultimately harder to use.

Just play the meta, put soontir on the table! With pred, crack, targeting computer all being good pick on him, and even hull or shield upgrade seeing some play, there's plenty of way to customize your soontir to do the things you like.

That is a lot of good points, but... Bid does not change the maneuvers you dialed in, and you cannot guarantee always going second. I have played with an 11 bid before and failed to outbid 5 out of 5 Jedi lists I played against on the championship I participated in. So I am attempting a new approach, where I don't give a **** about it. Sense is a decent choice and I have been considering it. For now I am trying to learn from a friend I play with at times. He is flying imps and is like... Top 8 in Poland this year.

I am planning on having Soontir Fel on the table, problem is he is not out yet for Second Edition and I am reluctant to but a First Edition ship. I'd rather just wait and grab it when it comes out with the next wave. My go to plan is to run Darth Vader (Afterburners, FCS), Soontir Fel (Marksmanship, Targeting Computer) and Grand Inquisitor (FCS)/"Duchess" (Elusive, Targeting Computer, Fifth Brother). With Striker you get 11 point of bid, with Adv V1 that's 14.

For now I am 1:0 with the Vader, Duchess and Grand Inquisitor posted above. Proton Rockets dropped two Crits and three Hits (one from Force) and Initiative Killed Braylen Stramm who had Vader at Range 1. And won me the game itself.

2 minutes ago, Schanez said:

That is a lot of good points, but... Bid does not change the maneuvers you dialed in,

with duchess, it actually does! :P.
And with grand inquisitor, you can actually set up a move where you kinda know that, if the opponent goes, say, straight ahead, you can barrel out of the way, but if he banks instead, then you can barrel out of the other side, making it a no-win proposition to do either of those move. That's where initiative truly shines. Sometimes, even if you know exactly what going to happen, the first players still has to commit to a choice, and the second player can answer that. That's why initiative is such a crutch. If your list has a dedicated blocker, you can then counter that so that the ace has no choice of re position, but then that depends on your list and stuff.

Yeah, at the end of a day, the better pilot usually wins... but initiative is really just such a powerful upgrade. (Also bid can depend on your meta. In my experience, only a few players in my local meta really bid deep, but online on vassal, i feel like bid starts at 10 points and go all the way to 19 sometimes... so if you know who you're playing against maybe it won't be necessary. )

I rather like Trip Imps with no regard for bid or Sense, but I feel like you do need to avoid the fragile ships, i.e. Interceptors and Strikers.

Mobile and tanky is fairly key. You can't rely on arc dodging, so you have to rely on good trades. You can set those up with your mobility, but it's difficult to trade positively on a ship that has a chance of being one shotted.

At the moment, for me the best candidate is another v1, or 2, or Whisper, who can be annoying to kill at times. Maarek is a decent candidate, but tricky.

Or you can sidestep into Init 4, where things become even more complex.

Vader, GGI and Duchess is still a decent list, I saw it do well at the wknd. With an 18pt bid, I think

Without a bid, it'll do well against some things and not others. You'd be a bit match up dependent.

34 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

You'd be a bit match up dependent.

This is always the case. I've learned that as Scum, I can often crush imperial ace lists with some aggressive flying, blocking, disruption, and just having more hp and firepower on the table.

i usually don't play with 3 ship lists but if i would without bidding this would be my list

vader: passive sensors afterburners proton rockets

g.inq: sense advanced sensors

inqusitor : supernatural r. proton rockets.

200 points

g inq is a beast setted in this way, is quite impossible to block and thanks to sense and his dial can be a serious problem for every ship that move after him. try to belive

vader is vader.proton rockets with passive sensors at i6 are very nasty, easy to allign and difficoult to avoid. if you play only 3 ships you will probably pass a lot of time avoiding to be shotted but when you have the opportunity you want hurt! 5 double modded red dices in these cases are what you are searching for!

the 3rd ship isn't properly a ship that doesn't want bid but is very manouvrable, quite tanky, can leverage on g.inquisitor's sense and as well as vader can shot 1 time a 5 dice double modded attack.

i know that the last one isn't an ace but you can easely change inquisitor with something else if you want

4 hours ago, Schanez said:

I am planning on having Soontir Fel on the table, problem is he is not out yet for Second Edition and I am reluctant to but a First Edition ship.

The 1st-edition models by themselves can be found for pretty reasonable prices on eBay. If you've already got the conversion kit for the Imperials, you'll already have everything you'd get in the 2nd edition expansion for the Interceptor at what's likely to be a cheaper price.

44 minutes ago, Vectivus333 said:

The 1st-edition models by themselves can be found for pretty reasonable prices on eBay. If you've already got the conversion kit for the Imperials, you'll already have everything you'd get in the 2nd edition expansion for the Interceptor at what's likely to be a cheaper price.

Failing the conversion kit, there is a secondary market for the cardboard. Both should be half the price of a 2.0 ship or thereabouts.

Plus, other X Wingers are a great source. Worth it for Soontir atm.

2 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

This is always the case. I've learned that as Scum, I can often crush imperial ace lists with some aggressive flying, blocking, disruption, and just having more hp and firepower on the table.

Yeah, there's some hard games there. You have to keep an eye on what the Scum are up to

I am quite aware, that the First Edition ships are available for sale. My cousin is playing for years and all his ships are from that edition. But my OCDs are hurting, when I see the slightly different paint colour on the first edition imperial ships. Unless I would give the whole squadron for a matching repaint, I would hate to even look at them. I am quite happy with the universal gray-blue of the Second Edition release.

Proton Rockets are great, but I was kind of afraid of putting them on Vader. That pushes him to 85 points with FCS, Hate and Afterburners. With the way he likes to roll blanks on Green Dice in the worst possible moments, that's a lot of a catch up to do. Pushing three damage into Vader is not difficult, even if he has Hate. That lack of Evade action is terrible.

On the other hand, Grand Inquisitor can evade for days with two Force and an Evade, and if he can position himself well with a Lock from previous FCS usage, he can Boost or Barrel Roll to aim that Bullseye and link it into Focus to allow the Rockets trigger. I just find it much easier to aim the bullseye, while having both movement actions available to me. And the Stress does not scare the Inquisitor that much, with his great blue maneuvers options.

Surprisingly, "Duchess" with an Evade and one Force Token as well as Elusive can be quite tanky. And if she draws fire, you are quite easily able to yeet her across the board with a 1 Bank into 3 Bank and end up in quite an unexpected position. Considering she only needs one turn to do a 1 Straight 180 to reenter the fight is just a killer combination, which also additionally restores her Elusive Charge. Although last game it did not save me from blanking out of three dice against a two Hits and a Crit that pushed four damage through...

In short... The Dice giveth and the Dice taketh away!

On 11/19/2019 at 6:28 AM, Schanez said:

Without further delay:

• Darth Vader: Hate, Passive Sensors, Afterburners;
• Duchess: Elusive, Fifth Brother, Targeting Computer;
• Grand Inquisitor: Fire-Control System, Proton Rockets/Ion Missiles

Idea is, Vader is doing Vader things and with Passives he doesn't care about bid and going second. Duchess is the nimble flanking tool, becoming quite deadly with a Target Lock on her action bar. Inquisitor is meant to be the additional chisel to poke into cracks created by Vader and Duchess. Plan is to either grab a Lock at Range 3 and move into Range 1-2 for a Barrel Roll/Boost > Focus for Protons with double mods or have the option to Ionise a target with a splash of Ion Missiles. Either additional damage or bit of a double tap setup.

What do you guys think?

looks good. Overall, list is fine though. Any tinkering is for personal preferences. I need Hate probably less than I need Passive Sensors or Sense. Other people are a bit more aggressive with their points fortress Vader and find Hate is used more. I would rather spend the points on Sense, or even Heightened Perception (so many Wedges!). Every tournament I have played in, I come across a Wedge list. I hate when Wedge is left on 1 or 2 hull and he is going to die but gets simultaneous fire, ARGH! GI or Vader with Heightened to finish off those pesky aces on 1 hull. GI with heightened could finish i5s off as well.

Hate for Sense on GI just for those matches against crazy aces with insane bids. GI is your blocker in those matchups, and if he is blocking he gets Sense for free. There will be many matches you dont use Sense or Passive Sensors, but in the games you do use them, they are priceless. PS is glued onto my Vader. Coming up against a Fenn Rau (and most Fenn builds are 10+pt bids) or Sun Fac you are gonna wish for Passive Sensors Vader to roll out of range 1.

On 11/26/2019 at 7:55 PM, wurms said:

(...) I would rather spend the points on Sense, or even Heightened Perception (so many Wedges!). Every tournament I have played in, I come across a Wedge list. I hate when Wedge is left on 1 or 2 hull and he is going to die but gets simultaneous fire, ARGH! GI or Vader with Heightened to finish off those pesky aces on 1 hull. GI with heightened could finish i5s off as well.

So how about...

• Darth Vader: Fire-Control System, Afterburners (I do not own Passive Sensors yet )
• Soontir Fel: Targeting Computer (After I learn to fly him better, probably downgrade to Predator)
• Grand Inquisitor: Fire-Control System, Heightened Perception

That's a total of 188 points with either 12 point bid or open for some more upgrades. Shield Upgrade on Soontir perhaps, or back to Proton Rockets on Grand Inquisitor. An I7 five dice attack sounds very tempting. Maybe Elusive on Soontir, or Crack Shot. Flying with a 6-6-7 is quite nasty indeed.

7 hours ago, Schanez said:

So how about...

• Darth Vader: Fire-Control System, Afterburners (I do not own Passive Sensors yet )
• Soontir Fel: Targeting Computer (After I learn to fly him better, probably downgrade to Predator)
• Grand Inquisitor: Fire-Control System, Heightened Perception

That's a total of 188 points with either 12 point bid or open for some more upgrades. Shield Upgrade on Soontir perhaps, or back to Proton Rockets on Grand Inquisitor. An I7 five dice attack sounds very tempting. Maybe Elusive on Soontir, or Crack Shot. Flying with a 6-6-7 is quite nasty indeed.

Daredevil on Soontir makes him absolutely crazy-maneuverable, and able to set up a lot of situations where he can either engage or disengage depending on which would be better.