How many Force points does it take to a basic Force Leap?

Does it cost 1 point? - Activate the Control upgrade on its own because you aren't making a skill check from the basic power

or

Does it cost 2 points? - 1 to activate the basic power and 1 to activate the Control upgrade

One point. You're just making an enhance power check not rolling it as part of a pool.

For just the base Force Leap, one Force point. There's no other check required to use that ability, as it simply lets you spend a single Force point to move to the desired location within short range.

With a number of Control upgrades, those work independently of the basic power. A general rule of thumb is that unless the upgrade references using the basic power as part of activating that upgrade, then it's a separate effect. Enhance is a prime example of this, as many of it's skill-based Control upgrades operate independently of one another; after all, you can't make an Athletics check and a Piloting (Planetary) check at the same time, since using a skill is an action.

15 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

For just the base Force Leap, one Force point. There's no other check required to use that ability, as it simply lets you spend a single Force point to move to the desired location within short range.

A minor sidetrack here, but in certain situations, it would probably be fair combine it with a skill check. Most likely Coordination for things like jumping through a narrow opening or landing somewhere precarious, like a narrow ledge, tightrope or an unstable or moving platform. Possibly Stealth for leaping past someone unseen.

I'm thinking there probably should some situations where Athletics should be appropriate, but despite the rules saying "anywhere within x range" there could still be situations or edge cases where the GM would require an Athletics check for getting to places just within reach. Or would that only be fair if attempting to leap farther than the force power would let you?

I realize that in 95% of the cases it would be a moot point if something is just within or just outside a given range as the GM decides arbitrarily, but sometimes it could come up ("I want to leap to the ledge where the sniper was. You said it was just within long range when we shot at each other, so I should be able to reach it.").

33 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

A minor sidetrack here, but in certain situations, it would probably be fair combine it with a skill check. Most likely Coordination for things like jumping through a narrow opening or landing somewhere precarious, like a narrow ledge, tightrope or an unstable or moving platform. Possibly Stealth for leaping past someone unseen.

I'm thinking there probably should some situations where Athletics should be appropriate, but despite the rules saying "anywhere within x range" there could still be situations or edge cases where the GM would require an Athletics check for getting to places just within reach. Or would that only be fair if attempting to leap farther than the force power would let you?

I realize that in 95% of the cases it would be a moot point if something is just within or just outside a given range as the GM decides arbitrarily, but sometimes it could come up ("I want to leap to the ledge where the sniper was. You said it was just within long range when we shot at each other, so I should be able to reach it.").

Fair, but I could also see some issues with the PC then wanting to use Enhance's ability to add Force dice to those Athletics/Coordination checks, to which we've got dev clarification that you generally don't get to double-dip your Force dice on similar effects. Which, to me at least, feels a bit more on the punitive side than I'm comfortable with as a GM; yes I want to challenge my players, but I also want them to have fun, and pulling that sort of thing on the player (especially if they're not exactly skilled at either of those skills) runs counter that second one for me. I suppose you could set the difficulty really low so that they're not likely to fail, but at that point I have to wonder what's the point of having them make the skill check?

It'd probably have to be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis, but myself I'd lean against requiring a skill check in conjunction with Force Leap. Then again, I'd stick with "if you want to leap to someplace that you can't reach with a single use of Force Leap, then you need to find an alternate route," given that the upgrade's ability to disregard difficult and impassable terrain can be put to very effective use both in and outside of combat, especially once the upgrade to perform Force Leaps as a maneuver is acquired.

49 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Fair, but I could also see some issues with the PC then wanting to use Enhance's ability to add Force dice to those Athletics/Coordination checks, to which we've got dev clarification that you generally don't get to double-dip your Force dice on similar effects. Which, to me at least, feels a bit more on the punitive side than I'm comfortable with as a GM; yes I want to challenge my players, but I also want them to have fun, and pulling that sort of thing on the player (especially if they're not exactly skilled at either of those skills) runs counter that second one for me. I suppose you could set the difficulty really low so that they're not likely to fail, but at that point I have to wonder what's the point of having them make the skill check?

It'd probably have to be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis, but myself I'd lean against requiring a skill check in conjunction with Force Leap. Then again, I'd stick with "if you want to leap to someplace that you can't reach with a single use of Force Leap, then you need to find an alternate route," given that the upgrade's ability to disregard difficult and impassable terrain can be put to very effective use both in and outside of combat, especially once the upgrade to perform Force Leaps as a maneuver is acquired.

I don't really see an issue here. Basically you're already adding your force dice to add the effect of jumping farther than humanly possible. Basically, your force dice are already committed to that use. There's a built in workaround for this already, as you can use Enhance to commit some of your Force Dice to Increase your Brawn and/or Agility. That's justification enough for me to disallow a second use of it at the same time.

However, I'd consider letting "excess" force pips not used to activate the leap ability be used for the basic Enhance ability. Possibly adding a "tax", like 1 additional force pip or a destiny point flip for using two abilities at once, if it needs balancing.

I see your point of it being punitive, but I have this social contract with my players (which I make a point of bringing up with new players); when you create your character (before starting and while advancing during the campaign) what you choose I will take as communication. If you put a lot of points towards making your character be awesome at something, I will interpret that as you wanting me to give you moments to shine in that area, and I will. On the flipside, if you build a character with glaring weaknesses, I will interpret that as you wanting that to matter as well. If you make a force user with Brawn and/or Agility 1, don't expect all the points you put into Force Rating and Enhance to cover for this 100% of the time. I will be looking for an opportunity to let the glaring weakness you chose play a part.

Your point about not making it too hard for the PCs is valid, but on the flipside, it shouldn't be too easy either. If a simple force power check is virtually a guaranteed success, and a possible failure makes things more interesting, I'd say you're almost obligated as a GM to make them roll. And as it your power as GM to arbitrarily decide whether there should be a check at all, it's also up to you to you the same reasoning to set the difference. If a fail could lead to something interesting, feel free to set a challenging difficulty. If it would just be a boring delay or sidetrack if they fail, just skip the roll entirely unless it's difficult enough to discourage them, and perhaps make them consider another plan of action, because then the choice becomes interesting.

7 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

If a simple force power check is virtually a guaranteed success, and a possible failure makes things more interesting, I'd say you're almost obligated as a GM to make them roll.

Part of getting the Morality mechanics to work, in my experience, means that analogous Force checks have to yield better results than the analogous "flat" Skill check, OR it must be an easier check.

If a flat Skill check can get you the same result as the Force, the Darkside is not powerful, is not seductive, not tempting, not anything like it's "supposed" to be in the canon.

I'm not saying that you should never combine a Skill check with the Force Power check, just that when it's deemed appropriate (which should be more rare than when you would require a check if there is no Power use) that the check should be easier than the check without the Power.

If you want the Morality system to work as it was designed.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

If a simple force power check is virtually a guaranteed success..

See, here's the thing, in that by how the Force Leap upgrades (and by extension the Freerunning talents) are written, using them is meant to be a guaranteed success. The player has invested XP that lets them say "I can do this thing!" without having to make further rolls in the process beyond the Force power check (Force Leap) or strain cost (Freerunning) that the given ability says is needed.

By saying, "yes, you bought an ability that lets you do that thing but now you have to roll in order to do that thing," you undercut the value of what it was the player spent a limited resource (XP) on. If those abilities were extremely cheap or easy to acquire, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But getting the full Force Leap (to at least short range) is 30XP, and the fastest route to Freerunning is also 30XP in Racer and 40XP in Courier. neither of which is exactly "cheap" unless the GM routinely hands out gobs more XP after a session than the rules suggest.

If I were a player who'd purchased the Freerunning talent (suffer a couple strain to move to any location within short range of me) and the GM said, "Yeah, I'm gonna need you to make a skill check to use that talent," as a player I'd be upset at the GM for pulling the rug under me. It'd be akin to the GM declaring that Point Blank doesn't apply in spite of the target being within short range "for circumstance reasons," or that any of the talents that lets you spend a destiny point to up your damage using a given characteristic can't be triggered in spite of the PC succeeding on the attack with a non-vehicular weapon and there being plenty of light side destiny points to spend.

You do mention "social contract," but a part of that is also that as the GM one doesn't change the rules or arbitrarily undercut the players on what amounts to a circumstantial whim. If a player without the Force Leap upgrade (or Freerunning) wants to try a similar stunt, then sure the character needs to make a skill check, since they lack those "I can do the thing!" ability that a PC with Force Leap or Freerunning has invested their XP into acquiring. And if a PC with that ability wants to do something that is outside of that ability's parameters (such as using Force Leap without the Range upgrade to jump to a point that's at medium range), then they can't use that ability, and default to having to make a regular skill check the same as a player without that ability.

Edit : To add to this by way of caveat, if the GM has been up front from the players at the time those "I can do the thing!" abilities have been purchased that the GM is going to alter the way that ability works, such as possibly requiring an additional or supplemental check when one normally isn't required, and the player has agreed to that change and accepts the ability in question no longer provides "virtually assured success" in that GM's game, that's a separate thing. Yes, a change is being made, but the player is informed of that change up front and has agreed to the change, ensuring the trust required of the social contract between the GM and their players isn't being broken.

It's when the GM springs these sudden (and to the player's POV possibly arbitrary) changes on the player that the issue arises of the trust implied in the social contract being broken on the GM's whim.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

See, here's the thing, in that by how the Force Leap upgrades (and by extension the Freerunning talents) are written, using them is meant to be a guaranteed success. The player has invested XP that lets them say "I can do this thing!" without having to make further rolls in the process beyond the Force power check (Force Leap) or strain cost (Freerunning) that the given ability says is needed.

By saying, "yes, you bought an ability that lets you do that thing but now you have to roll in order to do that thing," you undercut the value of what it was the player spent a limited resource (XP) on. If those abilities were extremely cheap or easy to acquire, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But getting the full Force Leap (to at least short range) is 30XP, and the fastest route to Freerunning is also 30XP in Racer and 40XP in Courier. neither of which is exactly "cheap" unless the GM routinely hands out gobs more XP after a session than the rules suggest.

If I were a player who'd purchased the Freerunning talent (suffer a couple strain to move to any location within short range of me) and the GM said, "Yeah, I'm gonna need you to make a skill check to use that talent," as a player I'd be upset at the GM for pulling the rug under me. It'd be akin to the GM declaring that Point Blank doesn't apply in spite of the target being within short range "for circumstance reasons," or that any of the talents that lets you spend a destiny point to up your damage using a given characteristic can't be triggered in spite of the PC succeeding on the attack with a non-vehicular weapon and there being plenty of light side destiny points to spend.

You do mention "social contract," but a part of that is also that as the GM one doesn't change the rules or arbitrarily undercut the players on what amounts to a circumstantial whim. If a player without the Force Leap upgrade (or Freerunning) wants to try a similar stunt, then sure the character needs to make a skill check, since they lack those "I can do the thing!" ability that a PC with Force Leap or Freerunning has invested their XP into acquiring. And if a PC with that ability wants to do something that is outside of that ability's parameters (such as using Force Leap without the Range upgrade to jump to a point that's at medium range), then they can't use that ability, and default to having to make a regular skill check the same as a player without that ability.

Edit : To add to this by way of caveat, if the GM has been up front from the players at the time those "I can do the thing!" abilities have been purchased that the GM is going to alter the way that ability works, such as possibly requiring an additional or supplemental check when one normally isn't required, and the player has agreed to that change and accepts the ability in question no longer provides "virtually assured success" in that GM's game, that's a separate thing. Yes, a change is being made, but the player is informed of that change up front and has agreed to the change, ensuring the trust required of the social contract between the GM and their players isn't being broken.

It's when the GM springs these sudden (and to the player's POV possibly arbitrary) changes on the player that the issue arises of the trust implied in the social contract being broken on the GM's whim.

Generally, I agree with you. The way an ability is written is how it should work. Generally.

However, the social contract regarding RPGs generally gives the GM some wiggle room to wing it and make stuff up on the fly, if it improves the game. Of course, things working in a consistent way is important not only to give the players an idea what to expect but also as a framework for the GM to build challenges around. The players should never feel ambushed or cheated nor should the rules feel completely arbitrary.

That's why I suggested using combined checks during certain circumstances or in edge-cases, not in "normal use".

Such as, if someone wants to force leap to a location that's kind of on the edge between two range bands, and the PC can only reach the closer of them. Rather than just deciding that the PC will automatically succeed or not in such a case, wouldn't it be more interesting to require a check to decide? The alternative is to arbitrarily deciding (or depending on your players *sigh* endlessly debating) whether or not the proposed action is just within or just outside a PCs established abilities.

Ideally, to the player, this should come across as allowing something that normally wouldn't be by adding a qualifier. Not the GM putting an artificial limiter on their established abilities. Think of it as a "Yes, but/No, unless..." answer.

"Can I Force leap/free run through the spinning fan blades to reach the exit?"
"Yes, but combine it with a coordination check to not get hit."

"Can I Force leap/free run onto the moving speeder we're chasing? It's just within range."
"No, unless you combine it with an athletics check as it's moving away from you."

Or you can use it with special circumstances that would put a limiter on abilities and force powers, such as unusually high gravity requiring an Athletics check to Free run anywhere or maybe powerful disturbances in the Force (like at the site of previous battle, natural disaster or genocide) requiring a Discipline check to stay focused enough to use Force powers. Ideally, such circumstances should've been established or at least hinted at beforehand.

I have used it like PenPenPen in my games. For normal movements landing on normal ground it is just a force check to make sure you can access the Force to perform it.

Are you leaping from one speeder bike to a grav truck (this happened in my last game)? Add a Coordination check once you land to remain balanced.

The jump was successful, the coordination generated 3 threat so he landed on the vehicle but lost his footing as the driver juked to the side. He went prone but stayed on the vehicle since it was still a success and he was now holding onto the roof of the vehicle.

If you make it a combined check, just don't make it about whether the PC succeeds. Make it about avoiding damage, getting there in time when you're racing the clock, or avoiding notice. In short, "Yes but..." it into how cool the PC gets to be.

For me it depends. In an encounter, the pips are all that's needed unless the environment has particular hazards that make leaping hazardous. This could simply be as dangerous as a low ceiling; or to land on a platform surrounded by a dangerous environment, though that is typically the exception rather then the rule. Most of the time getting A to B is fairly simple if the player isn't in a rush.

For skill challenges however they aren't necessarily entitled to succeed without investing something a little more. For example during a chase scene I wouldn't allow a player to "just force leap all around to get on that speeder" or "I am going to outrun the inquisitor by using force leap as my movement, and force leap as an action." as Force Leap isn't a substitute for Athletics in a more fluid narrative situation where the action ecomany is much less strict, after all even the most basic enhance user can use it enhance their athletic check so there really isn't an excuse to completely neglect personal fitness. Just having force leap would make certain checks achievable, such as chasing a speeder across a densely populated market might be possible because the character is able to get to the high ground and take short cuts to helm the speeder off, or having a bonus to outrun/chase down the inquisitor due to their greater mobility.

That being said, enhance is clearly meant to be used to argument skill checks and getting to add force dice to a check is a gigantic boon already as a force user becomes very statistically unlikely to fail a check, so the way I mostly treat it is that Force Leap is intended to be used in structural encounters; while argumentation of skill checks is how enhanced is used in an narrative situation. I wouldn't allow force leap to bypass the need to make those checks. But it does allow a checkless machanic to navigate a structured environment without making checks, namely an althetics/coordination check to physically climb to a higher/lower level. I've even had some situations where the character was able to reduce the fall distance by using enhance if they were able to prepare for it.

Also, to mention how it breaks down:

1 Force pip: Movement to short range, either vertically or horizontal with the upgrades. The main boon is being able to move up or down, a slight improvement over just taking the movement normally.
2 Force pips: Movement up to medium range. By spending two movements this way, it is possible to get from long to short in two leaps when typically, it takes two movements to get from Long to Medium. It's worth noting that you cannot use a Force Leap to get to engaged range, but you can use it to get from mid-long to short if some distance had been covered in the meantime. The main perk is being twice as fast as any other character in a structured encounter; three times as fast if the force pips favour you and you are willing to use your action to move as well. That latter sentence is also a reason that I do not allow it in narrative encounters; Chases would simply boil down to whomever mastered enhance or not, rather then the characters skill.

On 11/20/2019 at 8:33 PM, Stan Fresh said:

If you make it a combined check, just don't make it about whether the PC succeeds. Make it about avoiding damage, getting there in time when you're racing the clock, or avoiding notice. In short, "Yes but..." it into how cool the PC gets to be.

Agreed, with the caveat that I'd make it a pass/fail if I'd add it a skill check in order to a let a PC push the limits, such as trying to force leap beyond their normal limits.

"Well, you can leap to medium range, but I have to say that the platform you're trying to reach is probably at long range, but it's close so I'll let you try if you also pass an athletics check."

Of course, another way of doing it is to ask the player to flip a destiny point to establish that the platform is within reach, but I like to be somewhat flexible.

The best thing is of course when players themselves suggest solutions like this. As long as it's reasonable, I encourage players to do this as it saves me brainpower.

I'm pretty lucky when it comes to players.

Hey all,

I have an Enhance question and will ask here instead of starting a new Enhance thread.

Me (GM) and my players are struggling to make Force Powers in general fulfill their fluff & narrative promise as depicted in the films and video games etc. In short, we don't yet know the rules well enough to power game so that PCs get their XPs worth out of Force Powers in combat. Now, we have no problem utilizing Force Powers to great effect in Narrative Time, but we are playing the RPG strictly as written (according to our understanding of the rules), and we are struggling with Force Powers.

Let's take Enhance in particular. The fluff here is that the character uses the force to guide and augment their actions; cool! Great stuff. In combat/Structured Time, however, we are running into problems. We understand that you augment Athletics with your Force Rating for the basic power (combined check), and the skill-Control Upgrades expands the number of skills for which you can use the power; cool stuff.
--Question: Why only those specific skills? Coordinate, Resilience, and Brawl makes sense, and Piloting of course is included so that we can have young Anakin flying pod racers with super-human reflexes; no problem. But why not other skills? Melee and lightsaber seems obvious uses for Enhance, and one could even argue that Ranged might make narrative sense (feeling the force flow between you, me, the tree, the rock, yes, even between the land and the ship ...) Distance and spatiality is no obstacle to the Force, and there are non-Canon/EU examples of people force-guiding their ranged attacks. Is it a matter of balance/over-power that keeps Enhance from enhancing Melee, lightsaber, and ranged attack skills in this game?

And other skills too... like, what about Vigilance and Stealth, etc.? Why can't they be Enhanced? We are not trying to turn Enhance into a mega-min-maxing-power-gaming-vehicle-of-doom, but it would be nice and narratively appropriate if the power made Jedi better with combat skills (other than Brawl), and to us the skills available for enhancing all seem rather arbitrary and random.

When it comes to committing Force Dice to enhance Characteristics, that stuff is pretty self-explanatory. But, seeing as loads of Jedi base their Lightsaber skills on Characteristics not Brawn/Agility, it seems a bit unfair that those Jedi (who probably are less combat focused in the first place) cannot augment their fighting through the force. One could argue, that a mystic, or whatever, would explicitly use the force to augment their fighting as an equalizer against brutish types. Again, we can't quite see how Enhance fulfills its fluff/narrative promise.

And now, Force Leap. Again, no problem utilizing this in Narrative play, but -- without understanding/reading the RAW rules right -- my player invested XP in Enhance explicitly to be able to flit quickly about the battle field to optimize their fighting prowess. In other words, my player imagine that they could spend a Force Point to engage enemies within short range without spending a maneuver. On this I rule "sure! sounds good to me", but the problem is... activating Force Leap take "a Force Leap action", which means my player has effectively spent XP in order to get to engage at the cost of an action rather than a maneuver... That sux. Of course, if they were to buy the final Control Upgrade, they'd be able to use Force Leap as a maneuver, which means they have spent 50 XP to get to do exactly what is require to engage enemies in the first place.

So, yeah... this was a rather rambling post on the matter of Enhance. In short, my player feels meh about the power they just invested in, and I have to agree that, like with many Force Powers in the game, Enhance seems written explicitly to NOT be particularly useful in Structured Time combat situations. Any thoughts or clarifications would be appreciated.

4 hours ago, angelman2 said:

--Question: Why only those specific skills? Coordinate, Resilience, and Brawl makes sense, and Piloting of course is included so that we can have young Anakin flying pod racers with super-human reflexes; no problem. But why not other skills? Melee and lightsaber seems obvious uses for Enhance, and one could even argue that Ranged might make narrative sense (feeling the force flow between you, me, the tree, the rock, yes, even between the land and the ship ...) Distance and spatiality is no obstacle to the Force, and there are non-Canon/EU examples of people force-guiding their ranged attacks. Is it a matter of balance/over-power that keeps Enhance from enhancing Melee, lightsaber, and ranged attack skills in this game?

And other skills too... like, what about Vigilance and Stealth, etc.? Why can't they be Enhanced? We are not trying to turn Enhance into a mega-min-maxing-power-gaming-vehicle-of-doom, but it would be nice and narratively appropriate if the power made Jedi better with combat skills (other than Brawl), and to us the skills available for enhancing all seem rather arbitrary and random.

This is all covered by boosting Agility or Brawn. There are talents that operate similarly if not identically and cover different skills (see Seeker: Hunter, Seeker: Executioner, and pretty much all the form trees). Covering it in Enhance would be redundant and unnecessary. You have to also consider that they are limited in space.

Vigilance (via initiative) is "Enhanced" by the Foresee power (and it isn't a physical ability).

The reason for this is that you are enhancing your physical strength and reflexes, and those skills are the ones that best match the fluff and what we see on screen.

4 hours ago, angelman2 said:

And now, Force Leap. Again, no problem utilizing this in Narrative play, but -- without understanding/reading the RAW rules right -- my player invested XP in Enhance explicitly to be able to flit quickly about the battle field to optimize their fighting prowess. In other words, my player imagine that they could spend a Force Point to engage enemies within short range without spending a maneuver. On this I rule "sure! sounds good to me", but the problem is... activating Force Leap take "a Force Leap action", which means my player has effectively spent XP in order to get to engage at the cost of an action rather than a maneuver... That sux. Of course, if they were to buy the final Control Upgrade, they'd be able to use Force Leap as a maneuver, which means they have spent 50 XP to get to do exactly what is require to engage enemies in the first place.

It is very useful (which I have seen first hand) in structured time, you just need it upgraded. You can move from Medium to Engaged as a Maneuver if you get the Force pips.
But when you don't have it upgraded, think about it this way: You're running through a cave system, tryig to escape from stormtroopers and you skid to a halt at the edge of a chasm, so deep you can't see the bottom. You glance to the other side and see that it's a good seven or eight yards, far farther than a normal human can jump. But you have Enhance! You can leap horizontally to a target at Short range!
Verticality is also useful in this way, even before you get the upgrade that allows you to do it as a Maneuver.

It seems that most of your problems with the power seem to be that it isn't powerful enough quickly enough. If you look at the totality of the power and the system, I think you'll come to see that it does what you want it to.

Okay angelman2, there's a few things to unpack here.

Firstly, as to why the power doesn't enhance other combat skills (Melee, Lightsaber, Gunnery, etc), that boils down to game balance. To be perfectly blunt, Brawl is a really sub-par method of attacking as the damage output generally stinks in comparison to even small Melee weapons. So being able to add Force dice to a Brawl combat check isn't that big of a deal. Adding those dice via Enhance to a Lightsaber or Ranged (Heavy) combat check is going to very heavily skew combat encounters in favor of the Force user, especially once they start jacking up their Force Rating. That said, being able to commit Force dice to increase your Brawn or Agility does help indirectly with combat skills.

As for those PCs that took talents to use characteristics other than Brawn, bear in mind that lightsabers (especially in the hand of a PC that's invested XP into one or more of the Lightsaber Form specs) are fair and away some of the most powerful melee weapons in the game, due to a combination of Breach, low crit rating, and high damage (especially for some of the better kyber crystals).

As for what skills Enhance impacts, the power's theme is literally enhancing one's purely physical prowess. Skills such as Vigilance and Perception are outside that realm (and besides, they have an upgrade option under the Seek power). And splitting those out so that you can't just boost every skill with a single Force power is an attempt at keeping Force users with said uber-power from completely dominating the game, especially in mixed games where that PC may well be the only Force user at the table. WEG's d6 and WotC's Saga Edition had a major issue with Force users (especially Jedi) grabbing the spotlight and holding onto it tightly enough that some games boiled down to "The Amazing Jedi and their semi-competent traveling companions."

Granted, a chunk of that "balance" went out the window with the introduction of the Ebb/Flow power, which can be used to add successes and advantages to any skill check made in much the way Enhance works, though you have to invest a decent amount of XP into the power, and as it's not in the core rulebook, not all GMs will allow players to just grab the power, at least at character creation or without having to go through a quest/adventure to learn the power.

With regards to using Force Leap to be able to "leap" into engaged range with an opponent, I've had zero issues in games that I've run and played in with allowing the PC to do exactly that, or alternatively to use Force Leap to get out of engaged range, and not once has it broken the game. In my opinion, the rational that Sam Stewart gave for disallowing using Force Leap to work that way honestly feels like some really fine splitting of hairs.

Thanks! I was assuming that the reason was one of balance to avoid uber-Jedi from crashing the game, but wasn't certain. Cool stuff.

As for engaging (and disengaging [I hadn't Even thought about that]) with Force Leap not breaking the game, I actually came here just now specifically to run the following house rule by all y'all:

The Force User may check their Force Rating as part of a Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber attack and spend a Force Point to engage targets within Force Leap range with that attack at no Maneuver cost.

I believe this is adequately balanced because,
a) if the Jedi does NOT spend a (potentially Dark Side) Force Point, their attack suddenly auto-fails as the target is not engaged when it happens, and,
b) by forcing the Jedi to check their Force Rating to activate Enhance, they are prevented from activate many other abilities as part of their attack. (In other words, it is free engage OR Ebb/Flow or whatever).

Couldn't that work fine? It's a bit weird as you roll your attack prior to engaging, but what the heck.

(I'm not sure if this should also affect the last Force Leap Control Upgrade in some way, but I'm good with not)

The problem with that house rule is that it tramples over Hawk Bat Swoop (already considered to be one of the better combat talents a lightsaber user can get), namely by making the general effect broadly available to anyone (HBS is nestled deep in Ataru Striker, Enhance is open to anyone with a Force Rating and is far cheaper to purchase).

Honestly, the simplest answer is to just require the PC to purchase the upgrade that lets them Force leap as a maneuver, and let them use that maneuver to engage (or disengage) with an opponent if they want to do the "leap in and attack." It doesn't overshadow HBS and doesn't muck with the general action economy.

As an alternative, if you really want this to be a thing, what I've done with Enhance is combine the first two Force Leap upgrades (so that instead of buying one upgrade for horizontal leaps and a second upgrade for vertical leaps, it's just one upgrade to leap horizontal/vertical/diagonal/etc), and just shifted the remaining upgrades on that side of the power tree down one. So what you could do is after the Control Upgrade to do Force Leap as a maneuver, put a Control Upgrade that lets the user do what you're suggesting, spend 2 Force Points to leap into engaged as part of a Brawl/Melee/Lightsaber combat action (default would still be short range, but one could use the Range Upgrade to extend it to medium range).

I put it at 2 FPs instead of one as it's a fairly potent ability since it lets the user overcome one of the bigger problems of using melee-based weapons in a setting where ranged combat is the order of the day, and it's the sort of thing that really only an accomplished Force user would be able to pull off on a regular basis, especially from medium range (which remember can be up to several dozen meters away from a person), and we never see a Jedi do combat leaps of that magnitude; really most of what we see on the screen (movie, TV, and video games) is a leap from at most several meters away, which is pretty solidly within short range.

16 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The problem with that house rule is that it tramples over Hawk Bat Swoop (already considered to be one of the better combat talents a lightsaber user can get), namely by making the general effect broadly available to anyone (HBS is nestled deep in Ataru Striker, Enhance is open to anyone with a Force Rating and is far cheaper to purchase).

Honestly, the simplest answer is to just require the PC to purchase the upgrade that lets them Force leap as a maneuver, and let them use that maneuver to engage (or disengage) with an opponent if they want to do the "leap in and attack." It doesn't overshadow HBS and doesn't muck with the general action economy.

As an alternative, if you really want this to be a thing, what I've done with Enhance is combine the first two Force Leap upgrades (so that instead of buying one upgrade for horizontal leaps and a second upgrade for vertical leaps, it's just one upgrade to leap horizontal/vertical/diagonal/etc), and just shifted the remaining upgrades on that side of the power tree down one. So what you could do is after the Control Upgrade to do Force Leap as a maneuver, put a Control Upgrade that lets the user do what you're suggesting, spend 2 Force Points to leap into engaged as part of a Brawl/Melee/Lightsaber combat action (default would still be short range, but one could use the Range Upgrade to extend it to medium range).

I put it at 2 FPs instead of one as it's a fairly potent ability since it lets the user overcome one of the bigger problems of using melee-based weapons in a setting where ranged combat is the order of the day, and it's the sort of thing that really only an accomplished Force user would be able to pull off on a regular basis, especially from medium range (which remember can be up to several dozen meters away from a person), and we never see a Jedi do combat leaps of that magnitude; really most of what we see on the screen (movie, TV, and video games) is a leap from at most several meters away, which is pretty solidly within short range.

Good points. I'll go for the 2 Force Point cost and keep it as is. The Hawk Bat Swoop, I believe, is still significantly better than this Force Leap add-on, with its added advantages and swapping Agility for Brawn. (By the Whills, that's one mighty Talent!)

4 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

Good points. I'll go for the 2 Force Point cost and keep it as is. The Hawk Bat Swoop, I believe, is still significantly better than this Force Leap add-on, with its added advantages and swapping Agility for Brawn. (By the Whills, that's one mighty Talent!)

Well, also remember that in order to use Agility instead of Brawn, the Ataru Striker had to buy another talent. There's a sidebar in the core book that outright says unless you have a talent that lets you do otherwise, you have to use Brawn for Lightsaber combat checks, so if a talent says it requires a Lightsabr (other characteristic) check and you don't have a talent that lets you use that other characteristic, then you can't use the talent because your character can't make Lightsaber (other characteristic) check.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, also remember that in order to use Agility instead of Brawn, the Ataru Striker had to buy another talent. There's a sidebar in the core book that outright says unless you have a talent that lets you do otherwise, you have to use Brawn for Lightsaber combat checks, so if a talent says it requires a Lightsabr (other characteristic) check and you don't have a talent that lets you use that other characteristic, then you can't use the talent because your character can't make Lightsaber (other characteristic) check.

Wow, I didn't realize that. I believe I've seen other instances of "make a YY check using UNORTHODOX Characteristic" where it is implied that you don't need a special talent that allows you do to this? (Of course, I cannot remember the example right now, but I'm certain I've seen something to that effect). I assumed that the Hawk Bat Swoop allowed you to use Agility since it instructs you do to so...

54 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

Wow, I didn't realize that. I believe I've seen other instances of "make a YY check using UNORTHODOX Characteristic" where it is implied that you don't need a special talent that allows you do to this? (Of course, I cannot remember the example right now, but I'm certain I've seen something to that effect). I assumed that the Hawk Bat Swoop allowed you to use Agility since it instructs you do to so...

The grammar here is a bit different. It says "make a Lightsaber (Agility) check" rather than "make a Lightsaber check using Agility." It seems like splitting hairs, I know, but it's an important difference.

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The grammar here is a bit different. It says "make a Lightsaber (Agility) check" rather than "make a Lightsaber check using Agility." It seems like splitting hairs, I know, but it's an important difference.

Well, anyone familiar with FFG games knows that splitting hairs is what we do #ImperialAssaultIsLife