3 minutes ago, Deffly said:

Everyone always compares the Tie FO to the ln, the BA should be compared as the v1 Prototype plus.

Agreed, more or less.

He has half the strengths of Soontir (I6, Double-reposition, bullseye reward) but also half his weaknesses (reliant on blues, no force, easy to overinvest in).

Simultaneously, he has half the strengths of the Grand Inquisitor (knife-fighting dial, stressless reposition with mods, native lock action, sensor and missile slots) with half of his weaknesses (often throws 2 dice, easy to overcommit, difficulty running away fast, probably no mod slot).

Honestly I think he'll come out as sub-60. He's Soontir and Quickdraw is Wedge. Neither is Vader, Kylo, Luke, or Anakin.

28 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Kylo's likely getting nerfed again, which is kind of a pain, but combined with new options and the newly-viable stuff elsewhere (here's hoping for lower named TIE/fos) it really is necessary. Vonreg will fit halfway between QD and Kylo, maybe around 63 points. Actually QD/Vonreg/Midnight sounds like an amazing 6-6-6 list that's very likely to fit in a list, with toys. He'd also fly well with a little swarm to threaten from another direction, or with shuttle support. FO really needs more options though. Here's hoping we get the bomber next quarter.

We want more good stuff. We don't need stuff to be OP just so we'll use it. That's called power creep and it kills games.

First I will say I'm a Kylo fan, and I enjoy flying him. BUT I don't think that Kylo needs a nerf. He is already one of the most expensive naked, small base ships in the game. He is currently the main cog in the under performing first order line up because of their lack of other options. If you compare Kylo to Blackout there is a significant difference in points, and I would argue that BO is overcosted. But this doesn't mean that Kylo is undercosted. If I was a betting man, I would guess that Kylo stays where he is as FFG in general likes to error on the side of caution. AND Kylo has yet to truely dominate the meta like the other ships that have gotten nerfed bigtime in previous pts adjustments.

I will also say I don't think QD/Vonreg/Midnight sounds any good. Midnight and QD both need a coordinator to be truly effective, and there isn't one in the list. I will say that QD can be effective in efficiency lists, but a 3 ship list isn't efficiency. QD is a brawler that needs multiple actions to be truly scary.

1 hour ago, reqent said:

The initiative 4 is really interesting if it's like a carnor jax. We need some synergy and that could lead to interesting builds.

Yeah that mini jax has me all giddy. Him to shut down swarms, and midnight to shut down jedi, seems like something that could works while leaving enough space for a workhorse ship (probably kylo :P) in your list.

57 minutes ago, brownj23 said:

First I will say I'm a Kylo fan, and I enjoy flying him. BUT I don't think that Kylo needs a nerf. He is already one of the most expensive naked, small base ships in the game. He is currently the main cog in the under performing first order line up because of their lack of other options. If you compare Kylo to Blackout there is a significant difference in points, and I would argue that BO is overcosted. But this doesn't mean that Kylo is undercosted. If I was a betting man, I would guess that Kylo stays where he is as FFG in general likes to error on the side of caution. AND Kylo has yet to truely dominate the meta like the other ships that have gotten nerfed bigtime in previous pts adjustments.

Kylo is performing extremely, extremely well. He has everything that makes an ace or a force user powerful, and he’s both. And while he can’t evade, the bits that get through come back in the form of hate.

I’m not sure if he certainly will be nerfed, but he definitely deserves to be, every bit as much as Vader and the Jedi do. Of course, much of FO still needs buffs, but it’s not so bad on the whole other than their tragic lack of variety.

No one likes their favorite pilot to be nerfed, but variety and hard choices really are necessary for the health of the game. Kylo’s crowding out almost everything else from FO. 2-3 points up on him and down on some FO pilots (Cardinal, Stridan, Static, TN, Midnight) means his lists will be mostly unchanged, but lists without him will now be better.

10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Kylo is performing extremely, extremely well. He has everything that makes an ace or a force user powerful, except he’s both. And while he can’t evade, the bits that get through come back in the form of hate.

I’m not sure if he certainly will be nerfed, but he definitely deserves to be, every bit as much as Vader and the Jedi do. Of course, much of FO still needs buffs, but it’s not so bad on the whole other than their tragic lack of variety.

No one likes their favorite pilot to be nerfed, but variety and hard choices really are necessary for the health of the game. Kylo’s crowding out almost everything else from FO. 2-3 points up on him and down on some FO pilots means his lists will be mostly unchanged, but lists without him will now be better.

Your "he is performing extremely, extremely well" seems a little anecdotal vs factual. What has Kylo won since the last points changes? (outside of potential small hyperspace trials)

-Metawing shows he has made a number of high level cuts recently, but I don't see any wins. https://meta.listfortress.com/pilots/281/squadrons? Maybe that is because he is lacking good squad mates to fly with him. Tavson is good against inexperienced players, but if you hit an experienced player in the cut then he can be VERY hard to pilot. The same can be said for QD.

1 hour ago, brownj23 said:

Maybe that is because he is lacking good squad mates to fly with him. Tavson is good against inexperienced players, but if you hit an experienced player in the cut then he can be VERY hard to pilot. The same can be said for QD.

This is my thinking. Reduce the others a bit and you create good squadmates: it’s a net gain for FO, which has largely been held back “because Kylo is doing okay.” I want to see more variety, especially swarmier lists that use some TIE/FOs.

Kylo lists end up about the same, and the rest benefit greatly.

i see vorteg very similar to l'ulo l'ampar in some ways

both to have a benefit they have to gain a red token and trow 1 less die in defence/attack......

health is the same

vorteg has 3 red dices vs 2 (pseudo3) dices of l'ulo but l'ulo can rotate the arc.

both thave to pay a similar price to have bouble repositioning.

the only very different thing is dial, the possibility of bouble mod and that vorteg has higher initiative.

l'ulo is 43 points

considering these things i think worteg will be aroud 60 points

2 hours ago, Manolox said:

i see vorteg very similar to l'ulo l'ampar in some ways

both to have a benefit they have to gain a red token and trow 1 less die in defence/attack......

health is the same

vorteg has 3 red dices vs 2 (pseudo3) dices of l'ulo but l'ulo can rotate the arc.

both thave to pay a similar price to have bouble repositioning.

the only very different thing is dial, the possibility of bouble mod and that vorteg has higher initiative.

l'ulo is 43 points

considering these things i think worteg will be aroud 60 points

Don't know if you're trolling, but the Pilot is Major Vonreg.

31 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Don't know if you're trolling, but the Pilot is Major Vonreg.

Vorteg has bouble repositioning. Seems right.

3 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Don't know if you're trolling, but the Pilot is Major Vonreg.

my bad, i have just ordered two but misunderstood the name

I did lots of playtesting in FlyCasual with Vonreg as well. I think (and hope) 60 pts. are reasonable. He feels a bit like soontir but the lack of first boosting and then barrel rolling is huge without investing 6 points for Afterburners (if he even gets the Modification slot). I really like Composure as a talent to turtling or focus + boost/br. Investing in a ton of expensive upgrades is dangerous because he can explode so fast.

Since the First Order release I'm waiting for a true FO Aces squad. Vonreg gets me one step closer to that. Unfortunately all the tools the FO has to offer are pretty expensive so you won't have a decent bid. On the other hand Imperial Aces are so good because they have access to passive mods (force users and upgrades) which the FO hasn't besides Kylo. Because of that I don't think FO Aces can keep up with the imperials.

I'm building lots of lists in my mind. Kylo + Vonreg + X (maybe "Rush". But I'm not even sure if these three fit into a list naked...)

. . .

Rush is going to be weird pointwise usually there is such a premium on initiative 6 buts he's at half health the second he goes online. I'm assuming rush is going to be more than first order test pilot so at least 59 or 60.

TBH I think of Vonreg is much over 50 I’ll be giving him a hard pass. I think his ship and pilot abilities are both very limited and he’s going to die too fast too often.

He’s more like a Lulo or Duchess than a Super-Soontir.

15 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

TBH I think of Vonreg is much over 50 I’ll be giving him a hard pass. I think his ship and pilot abilities are both very limited and he’s going to die too fast too often.

He’s more like a Lulo or Duchess than a Super-Soontir.

I’m with you on the pilot ability, but at I6 the double reposition*, double modification, or combination in the middle that the ship ability provides definitely feel like a big step up from Lulo and Duchess. I don’t see him being costed past 55 or so, though.

*ish, since it’s a forced order of reposition.

Yeah exactly... it’s ‘ish’ double reposition and it costs you a dice to do it. He’s a shadow of the arc dodger Soontir is and I genuinely don’t see him worth >50pts.

Lulo and Duchess are low 40s, I see Vonreg high 40s ideally.

6 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Yeah exactly... it’s ‘ish’ double reposition and it costs you a dice to do it. He’s a shadow of the arc dodger Soontir is and I genuinely don’t see him worth >50pts.

Lulo and Duchess are low 40s, I see Vonreg high 40s ideally.

I'll be shocked if Vonreg is less than 50. He's more durable than Soontir Fel (or Duchess or L'ulo, for that matter) and he is on an interceptor chassis where his high initiative has tremendous value. I see him as being roughly on par with Fel when it comes to price.

I'm thinking that the base of the TIE/ba will probably be in the low 40s, minimum. I don't see this thing being less expensive than an X-wing, not with a stress-free double reposition behind a wide open maneuver dial.

I think Vonreg is worse than soontir imo and if he costs more than soontir he won't be even close to worth it. He's also very comparable to Grand Quiz who I think is also much better than he is and has 2 force, so he should be looking at the high 40s. People just look at his ship and say "oh he has double reposition or can get double mods so he must be more expensive" but it's limited double reposition and he's losing dice for doing his tricks so it's actually quite worse than what people think it will be.

I think in general comparisons to existing ace costs are maybe misleading. Soontir, Grand Inq, Jedi, Vader, are all obviously undercosted. They are not a useful benchmark unless reliable 15-20+ pt bid lists are working as intended. 58-62 pts might be appropriate for Vonreg assuming Soontir is mid 60s with 7b Obi in the 70s again. Followed by increases to Vader and high 50s grand inq.

Soontir is not undercosted imho, he’s right where he should be. Vader too.

Inqy probably needs to be more like 55, and the Jedi configs are too cheap.

32 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think in general comparisons to existing ace costs are maybe misleading. Soontir, Grand Inq, Jedi, Vader, are all obviously undercosted. They are not a useful benchmark unless reliable 15-20+ pt bid lists are working as intended. 58-62 pts might be appropriate for Vonreg assuming Soontir is mid 60s with 7b Obi in the 70s again. Followed by increases to Vader and high 50s grand inq.

Around 60 is where Vonreg needs to be, assuming the others are corrected (being I6 and douple repo or double tokened defence with Composure).

Looking at the Baron in the v1 @ 32pts, I'm hoping that the I3/ba is below 40pts. Having 5 of these ships on the board at a low initiative, essentially having to be either a striker or a v1 to get double mods, wouldn't be OTT IMHO.

Gosh, there's some unusually wild point speculation going on in here.

Fun times.

New points are coming in January this is the time for wild speculation! Especially when were getting new pieces and holo is intriguing now I cant wait to see how the initiative 4 TIE/ba works.

The strength of Vonreg over Soontir is his sweet ability to drop his agility and double mod his reds when he knows at I6 he’s not getting shot.

He’s not as slippery as the Baron but more versatile.

I think they could wind up very close in points.

I also tried Holo (with Composure) and a couple of I1 Fo’s and 2 Sf’s. Flying him with the Swarm was awesome. He gets lock + focus or focus + evade every round. At the start of the engagement phase he gives his strain to a Tie Fo who then says: “Shoot me”. Holo is hard to hit and is dealing a good amount of damage. Being at I5 is strong in the endgame as well.

A really good squad and Holo is a decent replacement for Avenger.

Nice. I'm curious about using him with phasma and as many omega aces as I can fit. Move the strain to phasma and get fanatical online for the mini swarm.