I am a competitive (tournament) player and had never heard of this before, so a ruling from an official judge would be most welcome. I do not want to misrepresent the rules in the future.

I make an attack. (Results irrelevant)

My opponent rolls 3 defense dice resulting in all blanks.

I remind my opponent that they should have only rolled 2 defense dice because I have Outmaneuver and I am out of my target's arc.

My opponent then declares that , since he rolled the incorrect number of dice, that he must now make a new roll with 2 defense dice instead of 3.

I express that I do not believe the rules allow that, but my opponent insists. I relent because it's a friendly game and I will probably win regardless of the new result. In a tournament I would call a judge.

How would a tournament judge rule in this circumstance?

Thank You

I believe he’s right...

It’s a feel bad moment if he turns 3 blanks into 2 evades but it could just as easily go the other way too.

A roll with too many is rerolled. Too few you just add one die.

i don't think there are any official rules regarding this. but in general in any competitive board game, if you roll too many dice, you have to reroll all of you dice. if you roll to few, you simply roll more dice, so that the total number of dice adds to up the correct number you were supposed to roll.

i believe most marshals would enforce this as well, as it's the most simple and fair solution to such problems that exists as far as i'm aware.

the situation you describe is hard to rule on, since both players have a responsibility to maintain a correct board state. so in rules terms, you did the right thing calling him out on rolling too many dice. not pointing out to him that he rolled too many dice could be considered cheating or unsporting conduct if observed by a judge or marshal. still, since he blanked out even while rolling too many dice, letting him roll again with fewer dice is clearly to his advantage, so i don't think anyone would have batted an eye if you didn't say anything about the number of dice rolled.

for all intents and purposes, you did the right thing. it would also have been more than reasonable to call a marshal over in this situation. your opponent was right on how situations with too many dice rolled is normally handled, though

as there is no official rules for x-wing regarding this as far as i know, it's TO's discretion - and most judges would rule with you opponent on this one.

Yeah..... and just to be clear, I feel that was absolutely unsportsmanlike of your opponent.

I have done exactly that before. Rolled 3 got one evade when I was supposed to roll 2. I had a focus. So I asked my opponent what he wanted me to do. He said just leave it and I did. He still got a hit on me.

Right or wrong, I feel that’s the better way to do it.

Both sides have good arguments. But I'd like to point something out. If the person who rolled too many dice had rolled all Evades or Focuses (when they have a focus token), you'd likely be insisting they reroll using the correct number of dice. So why expect them to leave the results stand when they rolled too many dice because the result wasn't in their favor? Either you always let the roll stand, or you always insist on a reroll. Handling it any other way is creating a double standard, which should be avoided.

...

In First Edition , the FAQ had a specific provision for what to do when the wrong number of dice were rolled:

Quote

Rolling Dice: When a player is required to roll attack or defense dice, if he rolls too many dice, he must pick up all of his dice and reroll them. If he rolls too few dice, he must leave the roll intact and roll the required number of additional dice, adding the new results to the original roll.

When a player is instructed to reroll a number of dice, he must choose all of the dice that he will reroll before rerolling any.

If a rolled die is cocked (not level), it must be rerolled.

I don't believe this explicit ruling has officially carried over into Second Edition, but it's become a standard (if technically unofficial) protocol for dealing with the situation.

1 hour ago, Faerie1979 said:

Both sides have good arguments. But I'd like to point something out. If the person who rolled too many dice had rolled all Evades or Focuses (when they have a focus token), you'd likely be insisting they reroll using the correct number of dice. So why expect them to leave the results stand when they rolled too many dice because the result wasn't in their favor? Either you always let the roll stand, or you always insist on a reroll. Handling it any other way is creating a double standard, which should be avoided.

I appreciate this perspective, and as emeraldbeacon referenced, it does appear to the the unofficial ruling. I would still love for a tournament judge to weight in, but I will add my view with an added level of complexity.

I tend to believe that the individual who makes the play error should accept the worse outcome, and this is why:

Although I know my opponent was not playing this angle, it is entirely conceivable that an unscrupulous player might engage in this behavior: Imagine my opponent was well aware that I had Outmaneuver and that he was only supposed to roll 2 defense dice. He instead rolled 3 dice hoping that I would not remember my upgrade. If the results were in his favor, and I failed to notice he rolled too many dice, he receives an advantage. If the results were NOT in his favor, he could then state: “Oh! Your Outmaneuver applies here. I should have only rolled two dice. Time to re-roll.” Which is also an advantage. If I notice the 3 die roll, and my opponent had rolled all evades or all focus (provided he had a focus, calculate, or force), he could even appeal to my “sportsmanship” and just say: “Oh, well it was all the same result anyway. What do you say we just take a die away.”

In the above scenario it is always to my opponents advantage to “get a free roll” with all dice hoping I will forget my upgrade, and then strategically remember it based on the results. Even if I always remember, an appeal to sportsmanship can still create advantage.

3 minutes ago, markrivett said:

I appreciate this perspective, and as emeraldbeacon referenced, it does appear to the the unofficial ruling. I would still love for a tournament judge to weight in, but I will add my view with an added level of complexity.

I tend to believe that the individual who makes the play error should accept the worse outcome, and this is why:

Although I know my opponent was not playing this angle, it is entirely conceivable that an unscrupulous player might engage in this behavior: Imagine my opponent was well aware that I had Outmaneuver and that he was only supposed to roll 2 defense dice. He instead rolled 3 dice hoping that I would not remember my upgrade. If the results were in his favor, and I failed to notice he rolled too many dice, he receives an advantage. If the results were NOT in his favor, he could then state: “Oh! Your Outmaneuver applies here. I should have only rolled two dice. Time to re-roll.” Which is also an advantage. If I notice the 3 die roll, and my opponent had rolled all evades or all focus (provided he had a focus, calculate, or force), he could even appeal to my “sportsmanship” and just say: “Oh, well it was all the same result anyway. What do you say we just take a die away.”

In the above scenario it is always to my opponents advantage to “get a free roll” with all dice hoping I will forget my upgrade, and then strategically remember it based on the results. Even if I always remember, an appeal to sportsmanship can still create advantage.

Let's look at this from the attacker's perspective. If you have Graz and throw one fewer red die than you should have, should you accept that? Or would you just roll an additional red? If you are going to force the defender to live with the results you need to follow the same rule. Or what happens when you, the attacker, throws too many dice? Do you reroll the proper number, remove a result or forfeit the roll?

I've T.O'd store tourneys and have used the reroll and/or add a die when the incorrect number of dice were rolled. Of course this was from 1st Edition but I see no reason not to carry this rule over into 2nd Edition.

9 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Let's look at this from the attacker's perspective. If you have Graz and throw one fewer red die than you should have, should you accept that? Or would you just roll an additional red? If you are going to force the defender to live with the results you need to follow the same rule. Or what happens when you, the attacker, throws too many dice? Do you reroll the proper number, remove a result or forfeit the roll?

I've T.O'd store tourneys and have used the reroll and/or add a die when the incorrect number of dice were rolled. Of course this was from 1st Edition but I see no reason not to carry this rule over into 2nd Edition.

The "Reroll if too many, add dice if too few" scenario really does make the most sense, in terms of removing any opportunities for impropriety on either side. A set rule like this puts everyone on the same page, and makes every (legal/official) roll of the dice matter.

17 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Let's look at this from the attacker's perspective. If you have Graz and throw one fewer red die than you should have, should you accept that? Or would you just roll an additional red? If you are going to force the defender to live with the results you need to follow the same rule. Or what happens when you, the attacker, throws too many dice? Do you reroll the proper number, remove a result or forfeit the roll?

I've T.O'd store tourneys and have used the reroll and/or add a die when the incorrect number of dice were rolled. Of course this was from 1st Edition but I see no reason not to carry this rule over into 2nd Edition.

The scenario really only applies when too many dice are rolled. When too few dice are rolled, you can always simply roll an additional die to resolve.

As an attacker, if I rolled too many dice I could discuss with my opponent how to resolve. I think we could agree to reroll in most situations when the result was middling – seeing no clear advantage for one player of the other. If the result was in my favor, I would expect my opponent to request a re-roll. If the result was in my opponents favor, I would expect that it would remain (though we might imply that one die was effectively not part of the roll).

I generally agree with what’s been stated, but I come from a competitive Magic the Gathering background where unscrupulous players are known to exploit their own perceived play error for advantage.

14 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

Both sides have good arguments. But I'd like to point something out. If the person who rolled too many dice had rolled all Evades or Focuses (when they have a focus token), you'd likely be insisting they reroll using the correct number of dice. So why expect them to leave the results stand when they rolled too many dice because the result wasn't in their favor? Either you always let the roll stand, or you always insist on a reroll. Handling it any other way is creating a double standard, which should be avoided.

Which is why it should be the choice of the player that didn't break the rules.

The problem with giving players a free reroll for rolling too many dice is that it rewards rolling too many dice on purpose. Roll well and hope opponent doesn't notice, or roll badly and call out your "mistake" so you can get a free reroll. Roll well and opponent notices, well you don't really lose anything. And it's impossible to prove cheating because the player can just claim they picked up too many dice by mistake.

This is why sloppy play should never be rewarded, it's too easy for cheaters to hide behind sloppy play to cover their tracks.

13 hours ago, markrivett said:

The scenario really only applies when too many dice are rolled. When too few dice are rolled, you can always simply roll an additional die to resolve.

As an attacker, if I rolled too many dice I could discuss with my opponent how to resolve. I think we could agree to reroll in most situations when the result was middling – seeing no clear advantage for one player of the other. If the result was in my favor, I would expect my opponent to request a re-roll. If the result was in my opponents favor, I would expect that it would remain (though we might imply that one die was effectively not part of the roll).

I generally agree with what’s been stated, but I come from a competitive Magic the Gathering background where unscrupulous players are known to exploit their own perceived play error for advantage.

I have more faith in my opponents. If you see an unscrupulous player behind every throw of the dice you can't be having fun.

It's also fairly easy to figure out if someone is using "oops, I rolled too many dice" as a way to cheat. For one thing, if they are consistently doing so, then it's likely they are trying to cheat. Or if they only notice they did so when rerolling is to their advantage, they're possibly trying to cheat.

Another habit I’ve picked up from playing Vassal that I’ve found helpful is a full declaration of the attack:

“hmmmm... ok. I’m going to attack Soontir range 3 through a rock with Wedge. Let me check... yup, I have outmaneuver. So I’ll roll three against your 3, +1 range, +1 obstructed, -1 outmaneuver, -1 Wedge. So 3v3? We both have a focus.”

This takes a bit to write out but it only takes a split second in game. I always declare my attacks in the XvX format.

😂 😂 side note: I also say “set” a lot completely unnecessarily because of Vassal... 🙄 🙄 😂 😂

4 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Another habit I’ve picked up from playing Vassal that I’ve found helpful is a full declaration of the attack:

I don't get on vassal, but I have formed a similar habit as a matter of courtesy and verification.

21 hours ago, markrivett said:

...

I generally agree with what’s been stated, but I come from a competitive Magic the Gathering background where unscrupulous players are known to exploit their own perceived play error for advantage.

Strangely enough, I credit my "verify everything" streak to the way my circle casually plays MtG. There's so many triggers, steps, and sub steps in that game that I call almost every one of them out verbally down to starting every turn by saying, "Untap, upkeep, draw card..." I've been to enough MtG events to understand that habit slows the game to an unacceptable place for some players, but X-wing is a different community even at high level competitive.

At X-wing events I doubt you'll find many (if any) players who will give grief about verbally verifying the game state before proceeding.

I know in Magic: The Gathering and other card games it is considered a valid tactic to try to subtly trick your opponent into skipping phases. I generally don't do so, but I have once tricked someone into skipping their entire turn (after the draw phase) three times in the match by the simple expedient of asking "you done" shortly after they draw their card. As a general rule of thumb, if you forget to do something like flip S-Foil from closed to open before you activate or to preform an action with your ship, tough toodles. There's no rewinding to fix that. However if you rolled too many dice, that is not an "oops, I forgot" that is let stand. You must reroll, regardless of if this is in your favor or not. On the other hand, if someone keeps pulling that card repeatedly, it's may not be by accident. As such I would avoid playing against that person, or possibly if I was in a tourney report it as suspicious behavior.

I was told once by an older friend, “There’s 3 types of people: those that throw trash on the ground, those that throw their trash in a can, and those that pick up other’s trash off the ground.”

X-wing is a far funner game (for me) when I’m shouting out,”Wait! You wanna flip your s-foils???? You might need to boost!”

Not that I’m literally doing this every time, but you get the idea...

And “cast your bread upon the waters...” There’s many times the goodwill goes both ways.

It’s next level stuff for fun and friendship when you’re tired and playing game 5... and you hit an asteroid on the literal first maneuver, your opponent reaches over slides your ship a mm sideways and says “pshh what asteroid...”

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I was told once by an older friend, “There’s 3 types of people: those that throw trash on the ground, those that throw their trash in a can, and those that pick up other’s trash off the ground.”

There’s also people who throw there trash in other people faces.

Theres also people that recycle the majority of their trash.

Theres also people that do through other people’s trash in search of something good.

On 11/16/2019 at 1:27 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

The "Reroll if too many, add dice if too few" scenario really does make the most sense, in terms of removing any opportunities for impropriety on either side. A set rule like this puts everyone on the same page, and makes every (legal/official) roll of the dice matter.

Personally i am in the mindset of reroll all, both ways.

On 11/16/2019 at 11:13 AM, meffo said:

i don't think there are any official rules regarding this. but in general in any competitive board game, if you roll too many dice, you have to reroll all of you dice. if you roll to few, you simply roll more dice, so that the total number of dice adds to up the correct number you were supposed to roll.

That or this:

On 11/16/2019 at 11:56 AM, Faerie1979 said:

Both sides have good arguments. But I'd like to point something out. If the person who rolled too many dice had rolled all Evades or Focuses (when they have a focus token), you'd likely be insisting they reroll using the correct number of dice. So why expect them to leave the results stand when they rolled too many dice because the result wasn't in their favor? Either you always let the roll stand, or you always insist on a reroll. Handling it any other way is creating a double standard, which should be avoided.

Pick one. Stick with it in your dojo.

What will most likely start a fight is trying to say the player's roll just doesn't count at all and they get the worst possible outcome from rolling an incorrect number of dice. That is certainly against the spirit of all this.

On the one hand you could have just kept your mouth shut on the three blanks. Issue there is that potentially creates problems the next time when you need them to do it right. Then you'll be perceived as the cheater.

If you got someone who is rolling the wrong number consistently you just slow down and get meticulous on them. Make sure everyone has the right number before any are rolled.

On 11/17/2019 at 3:10 AM, Stoneface said:

I have more faith in my opponents. If you see an unscrupulous player behind every throw of the dice you can't be having fun.

I do not see cheaters behind every throw of the dice. I’m exploring an area where I believe there is potential for cheaters to be successful with the “unofficial” re-roll rules. I have a huge amount of fun playing X-Wing, just as when I played MTG. In my opinion, participation in the competitive aspect of a game requires becoming familiar with ways players might cheat in order to recognize them and protect the community from those players.

On 11/17/2019 at 6:44 AM, Faerie1979 said:

It's also fairly easy to figure out if someone is using "oops, I rolled too many dice" as a way to cheat. For one thing, if they are consistently doing so, then it's likely they are trying to cheat. Or if they only notice they did so when rerolling is to their advantage, they're possibly trying to cheat.

A clever cheater would not “constantly” use their cheat. They would use it sparingly. Furthermore, successful cheaters tend to be extremely friendly and charismatic – disarming their opponent with the impression: “That guy would NEVER cheat!”

A few years ago a player who was caught cheating on video at a large MTG tournament was so charismatic that his cheated opponents defended him when he was disqualified. They could not believe such a nice guy would cheat.

That guy who has a collection of X-Wing dice with imperfections that improve the results… he’s probably also one of the friendliest players in a given community.

Funny thing about cheating via rolling too many dice... It's as likely to backfire and work against you as it is to help you.

12 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

Funny thing about cheating via rolling too many dice... It's as likely to backfire and work against you as it is to help you.

A “free roll” with too many dice or otherwise is always beneficial. If a player attempts to cheat in this way, and is successful then they acquire a decision tree that provides an advantage.

If a player attempts to cheat in this way, and rolls well, it isn’t a “backfire” when they are then called out for failing to roll the correct number of dice. They’re just back to a position of no advantage.

It is a backfire however when instead they blank out with the reroll.