I was late to the Soontir Fel train in 1.0, and when I finally got on board, I liked him much more as a fast flying gun with Targeting Computer than I did as a tank with Stealth Device. In the transition to 2.0, he lost much of his tankiness, but retained a lot of his offense thanks to his ability and tha ability to take Predator (as PTL was no longer available). The most recent wave introduced Targeting Computer, granting Fel the Lock action for a minor points increase over Predator. This also frees up his talent slot for Crack Shot. I wanted to look at when you would opt for one build vs the other, so what follows is a brief breakdown of various situations and how they favor each build.

Cost: the Predator version costs 55, the TC/Crack version costs 57. 2 points isn't much, but the bid matters for this ship, so its always something to keep in mind.

All situations assume 3 dice shots unless otherwise stated. All decimals are rounded to the nearest tenth.

Situation 1.) Target in Bullseye, no return shots against Soontir, action available for Lock (or Lock carried from previous turn).

Predator: 2.7 expected hits

TC/Crack: 2.8 expected hits, and the ability to cancel an Evade once per game.

Situation 2.) Target not in Bullseye, but another ship is, no return shots against Soontir, action available for Lock (or Lock carried from a previous turn).

Predator: 2.3 expected hits.

TC/Crack: 2.8 expected hits

Situation 3.) Target in Bullseye, both actions were used to reposition (no Lock). No return shots on Soontir.

Predator: 2.7 expected hits.

TC/Crack: 2.3 expected hits, but once per game can cancel an Evade.

Situation 4.) All actions/free tokens spent defensively, target in Bullseye

Predator: 1.9 hits

TC/Crack: 1.5 hits, once per game cancel an Evade.

Situation 5.) All actions/free tokens spent defensively, target not in Bullseye.

1.5 expected hits for both builds.

Situation 6.) All actions/free tokens spent defensively, Lock carried from previous turn, target in Bullseye.

Predator: 1.9 expected hits.

TC/Crack: 2.3 expected hits, once per game can cancel an evade.

Situation 7.) All actions/free tokens spent defensively, Lock carried from previous turn, target not in bullseye.

Predator: 1.5 expected hits.

TC/Crack: 2.3 expected hits.

Situation 8.) As situation 1.), but at Range 1.

Predator: 3.5 expected hits.

TC/Crack: 3.8 expected hits, once per game cancel an Evade.

Summary: Most situations favor the TC/Crack build. The notable exceptions are when Soontir spends his actions repositioning or for defense and has a bullseye target and no lock held from a previous turn. This isn't necessarily a rare situation, however, so depending on what your experiences are, there's reasons for either build.

Yes, TC/Crack is obviously better if you are not getting shot. Your defense is worse, as you are less likely to be taking evade, so in the end TC/Crack probably requires you to be more cautious too - and therefore potentially shooting less often.

Crackshot is good shot

And obviously I would never touch Soontir (can't imagine why not, though...) but having played similarly flighty--if less fickle--pilots, they're far more happy setting up TLs and other advantages before engaging rather than relying on bullseye

So I'd vote for TC crackshot as well. Compliments Soontir's style of running away blowing raspberries until it's time to kick someone in the junk

Crackshot also exacerbates the advantage of being able to initiative kill folks

No to both.

Daredevil/TC/Shield Soontir for life!

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

No to both.

Daredevil/TC/Shield Soontir for life!

Keep in mind that daredevil requires a white boost action and any autothrusters triggered action is considered red.

I like Crack Tc because it mechanically feels satisfying. Just the cadence of the setup. Move. Lock. Boost. Focus. Crack. Predators real good to though and allows rerolls with evade focus stacks or while bumped. Its key when playing Soontir to not over stress. Predator sometimes supports that effort a little better.

I agree with how you summarized things. Theres alot to be said for predator giving soontir two sources of passive mods though. It always surprises me how much soontir functions like a force user with that pilot ability. Predator doubles down on that. Thing is crackshot and predator have kinda similar value on their own (just crackshot soontir being another common build) so from that perspective i guess Crack Tc soontir is kinda the best of both worlds.

4 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Keep in mind that daredevil requires a white boost action and any autothrusters triggered action is considered red.

Trust me, I know.

Still, Soontir lives and dies by his positioning. This allows you to evade or TC and then autothrusters OR to do a 90° turn. Having so many options nearly guarantees either the bullseye or no shots on Soontir. The ability to just 180° back into the fight is amazing.

I played Daredevil Soontir in 1st edition and loved it. He's actually better in 2.0, and with Targeting Computer, there's no better fit for his talent slot. He'll get far more average uses out of Daredevil per game than out of Crack Shot. Daredevil will save his life while Crack Shot only deals one extra damage.

Hrm. I could see going either way, depending on the squad.

Like, if you're trying to protect points on Soontir, I'd probably go Predator. A bit more defensive, a bit easier to get by without having to take stress, better offense when you do double-reposition.

But that's not what's needed in every squad. A Crack/TC Soontir used as an Imperial version of Wedge Antillies--designed to mess some stuff up before ultimately dying--might be right for some squads. Aggressive aces can take some folks off-guard.

Hrm... Crack TC Soontir, 2 XG-1 Gunboats with Ion Cannons, 2 TIE Aggressors with Ion Cannon Turrets. Ion can be surprisingly effective, but has to be used in moderation. Gunboats are great raw stats for their points. Mixing turret Aggressors in covers the positional weaknesses of the Gunboat. Soontir smashes up predictable Ionized ships.

What about using Marksman instead of Crackshot?

4 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

What about using Marksman instead of Crackshot?

Marksmanship is usually just not worth it.

I can imagine a theoretical meta where there are a lot of low-shield, high-hull ships, and maybe it'd be OK on something other than a ship with a crit-focused pilot ability (Maarek Stele, Bossk). Even then, Crack Shot might even be better, since it increases the chances of pushing a crit past defense dice.

I love the tc crackshot Soontir, but it is for sure squad dependent

if your gonna just squeeze him into a 3 ship Ace build then it might be a the cheaper the better situation(bid is best upgrade for some)

but in a list with Jendon...it is an Amazing Combo because you can get that lock on someone really early, keeping Soontirs actions as he approaches combat

then if you have Jendon with krennic...wow does that tc/crack Soontir become amazing

I always feel like I play so cautiously that I don’t get shots when I run him without stealth or shield in 2.0.

But how much does a once per match canceling of a single Evade really impact his performance? I mostly ignore Crack Shot not because I can't line up bullseye arcs, but because Predetor and Marksman seem like they'd have a bigger impact on the match.

34 minutes ago, Faerie1979 said:

But how much does a once per match canceling of a single Evade really impact his performance? I mostly ignore Crack Shot not because I can't line up bullseye arcs, but because Predetor and Marksman seem like they'd have a bigger impact on the match.

Depends on how often you can get the bullseye lined up + how fast you are looking to put damage on because your list has low green targets that will get shot up early. I think the best case for predator over CS is a squirelly I6 pilot, but even with that, it is still not a default choice. There are many times when canceling 1 evade means removing a ship from the board.

2 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

But how much does a once per match canceling of a single Evade really impact his performance? I mostly ignore Crack Shot not because I can't line up bullseye arcs, but because Predetor and Marksman seem like they'd have a bigger impact on the match.

It can actually be huge if used at the right time, especially against high agility low hp ships. Like Jedi, vader, kylo and inquisitors especially, since rolling 3 hits or 2 hits and a crit can then get fully evaded or just hit a shield, this could potentially spike more damage through and get them to half or dead

think of it as a 1 point torpedo or missile since the effect is similar but actually even more flexible because you get to see the dice before using it

range 1 crack 4 hits is basically an ace killer

1 hour ago, TheOz said:

It can actually be huge if used at the right time, especially against high agility low hp ships. Like Jedi, vader, kylo and inquisitors especially, since rolling 3 hits or 2 hits and a crit can then get fully evaded or just hit a shield, this could potentially spike more damage through and get them to half or dead

think of it as a 1 point torpedo or missile since the effect is similar but actually even more flexible because you get to see the dice before using it

range 1 crack 4 hits is basically an ace killer

I agree wholeheartedly. It's huge when threatening any ship with high defense. Jedi, TIE Fighters, A-wings, etc all care about losing the extra hit point.

It's also useful if you're trying to finish something off, but don't know if you should spend a Focus to do it. You probably kill the ship with just what you rolled, but you can spend Focus to be sure in case they get lucky greens. With Crack Shot, if they end up getting lucky greens to live, you can spend the Crack charge, keeping that Focus for defense.

Ive started flying Soontir with TC recently and really love it just because when you are going to boost or roll out of an enemy arc and not have any shot, then you can setup a lock and not "waste" that turn. Also, those times when you are not getting shot at, instead of focus, you can lock, and those times you roll natties, you save that lock.

I feel TC plays more into Soontir dodginess.

I also love being able to check range with a lock, barely grab it at range 3, and then roll out of range to safety and now have it for next round. TC just feels good on Soontir.

4 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I agree wholeheartedly. It's huge when threatening any ship with high defense. Jedi, TIE Fighters, A-wings, etc all care about losing the extra hit point.

It's also useful if you're trying to finish something off, but don't know if you should spend a Focus to do it. You probably kill the ship with just what you rolled, but you can spend Focus to be sure in case they get lucky greens. With Crack Shot, if they end up getting lucky greens to live, you can spend the Crack charge, keeping that Focus for defense.

This is why I feel Morgan reed/Duncan Howard were geniuses when they matched Soontir up with krennic on Jendon..because now you can spend the focus result for damage and still push more damage through with crack and have your focus for defense. I feel like it’s probably one of the best combos in the empire

Just wanted to say this is a great thread. Thanks, Bio!

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:54 PM, theBitterFig said:

Marksmanship is usually just not worth it.

I can imagine a theoretical meta where there are a lot of low-shield, high-hull ships, and maybe it'd be OK on something other than a ship with a crit-focused pilot ability (Maarek Stele, Bossk). Even then, Crack Shot might even be better, since it increases the chances of pushing a crit past defense dice.

This. It genuinely isn't bad, but it's only worth it if you do something in particular with the critical result. Maarek Stele is a good case in point.

I guess Autoblasters/Marksmanship might work as a combination on a sufficiently manoeuvrable ship, too.

So a bit of a funny thought here, but what about Predator/TC to get the middle ground of both worlds? You lose the raw damage spike of Crack Shot, but gain a lotttt of flexibility.

Not quite as efficient points-wise but depending on playstyle and list philosophy could help Fel stay unpredictable and dangerous.

34 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

So a bit of a funny thought here, but what about Predator/TC to get the middle ground of both worlds? You lose the raw damage spike of Crack Shot, but gain a lotttt of flexibility.

Not quite as efficient points-wise but depending on playstyle and list philosophy could help Fel stay unpredictable and dangerous.

It basically comes down to how often you think you'll line up the bullseye on a target you intend to shoot at. If you only do it 1-2 times per game, Crack will be better, TC or not. If you do it all the time, Predator may be better, but then maybe you're wasting 3 points on TC.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

It basically comes down to how often you think you'll line up the bullseye on a target you intend to shoot at. If you only do it 1-2 times per game, Crack will be better, TC or not. If you do it all the time, Predator may be better, but then maybe you're wasting 3 points on TC.

Running Predator Soontir I usually manage it on the vast majority of combat rounds, but there are often situations where having more than one reroll would be incredibly nice. Being able to bank a TL on non-combat turns or on turns where I've lined up the bullseye without a repo would help keep the damage output steady, and also allow for double-mod shots against targets other than the ship in bullseye. So it's 100% a raw efficiency loss, but a large flexibility boost depending on how you fly.

If you list has enough of an anvil to deal with I6 opponents, it's potentially worth it to keep Soontir a very steady hammer. Definitely situational, though.

2 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Running Predator Soontir I usually manage it on the vast majority of combat rounds, but there are often situations where having more than one reroll would be incredibly nice. Being able to bank a TL on non-combat turns or on turns where I've lined up the bullseye without a repo would help keep the damage output steady, and also allow for double-mod shots against targets other than the ship in bullseye. So it's 100% a raw efficiency loss, but a large flexibility boost depending on how you fly.

If you list has enough of an anvil to deal with I6 opponents, it's potentially worth it to keep Soontir a very steady hammer. Definitely situational, though.

Yeah, the points difference between all the options is so little that I can't reasonably say any of them is wrong. It just comes down to preference.

3 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

So a bit of a funny thought here, but what about Predator/TC to get the middle ground of both worlds? You lose the raw damage spike of Crack Shot, but gain a lotttt of flexibility.

Not quite as efficient points-wise but depending on playstyle and list philosophy could help Fel stay unpredictable and dangerous.

I did this when I ran Soontir with Vessery, so Soonts doesnt use his lock unless necessary. You can also lock an ace early, and just keep that threat out there to deter them from engaging then continue to use predator normally. This is useful in the Ace + Generic matchups like Obi and triple Arcs, etc. Lock Obi to make him skittish knowing at anytime you can turn on him and get double repositioning and full mod shot. Then just predator those medium base arcs.

Probably not the most efficient of uses for both talent and mod, but it has its uses