So, my team and I were discussing how the defensive effect of Veteran Wing Leader, Agent of the Empire, and First Order Elite works, timing-wise.

The listed timing window is "While you defend..." which, according to the Rules Reference, says:

My first thought was that this would easily fall into the Modify Attack Dice step, because the RR says "Dice modification occurs during the respective Modify Attack Dice or Modify Defense Dice step, unless otherwise stated."

But, then there's this very clear definition of what Cancelling dice is:

So my question is this: When does Veteran Wing Leader (et. al.) actually cancel the dice? During the Modify Attack Dice step, so it only affects the dice naturally rolled? Or later, like Biggs and Selfless, which both specify "before the Neutralize Results step?" Or is there some other timing window this ability belongs in that I didn't think of?

I'd assume it is done after the wing leader rolled his defense dice and modified them. You know, at the same time you normally are canceling hits and crits. You're not going to be doing damage to wingmates to cancel hits and crits if you already evaded them all, are you?

Dice are normally cancelled in the Neutralize Results step (when evade results cancel hits and crits) and the two closest abilities on Biggs and Selfless occur immediately before that step, so I would use the same timing as Biggs and Selfless.

Still would mean you've rolled the dice and thus know if you need to cancel any additional hits/crits.

It should happen during step 4. Neutralize Results because that is the time when you cancel results. Afterwards all uncanceled hits/crits cause damage to the defending ship.

For consistency, I would treat it as "before the Neutralize Results step." This is the language used on Biggs, Selfless, and Prince Xizor, who have similar abilities.

13 hours ago, Raynor1111 said:

...

So my question is this: When does Veteran Wing Leader (et. al.) actually cancel the dice? During the Modify Attack Dice step, so it only affects the dice naturally rolled? Or later, like Biggs and Selfless, which both specify "before the Neutralize Results step?" Or is there some other timing window this ability belongs in that I didn't think of?

This is very similar to the recent topic asking when Treacherous can apply:

The consensus on that thread is that you can cancel an incoming result at any time while defending.

That timing covers from being declared the defender all the way until aftermath (not including aftermath bonus attacks). The effective timing of course is limited to the space after rolling attack dice (before that there are no results to cancel) and up to Deal Damage (after that there are no results again). Typically the most effective time to cancel a result though will be during the cancel results step because you will have complete knowledge of the comparison at that point. You can read that thread for edge cases where it would be of benefit to cancel at other points.

That is a strictly RAW answer. F or now there is no rule, ruling, or clarification restricting when a die can be cancelled while defending.

13 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

...closest abilities on Biggs and Selfless occur immediately before that step, so I would use the same timing as Biggs and Selfless.

I would argue that Treacherous is just as close just on the grounds that it also excluded "before the neutralize results step."

13 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

For consistency, I would treat it as "before the Neutralize Results step." This is the language used on Biggs, Selfless, and Prince Xizor, who have similar abilities.

The trouble with a consistency argument (or a precedent argument) is that it only works if people are aware of the other examples 😕

With those three all being in different factions from the examples that lack specific timing it is more likely for a player to encounter one example without the other.

8 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

I would argue that Treacherous is just as close just on the grounds that it also excluded "before the neutralize results step."

The trouble with a consistency argument (or a precedent argument) is that it only works if people are aware of the other examples 😕

With those three all being in different factions from the examples that lack specific timing it is more likely for a player to encounter one example without the other.

Treacherous! That's what that was! I knew there was some card discussed onhere recently which had a similar text to these, but didn't have that "before the neutralize results step." Treacherous also physically lacks the space on the card for using that timing language. Anyhow, I think in the old thread, I also suggested that Treacherous should use the same timing as Biggs, et al.

I'll admit that the argument isn't perfect. Isn't really supported by much. Still, in absence of other information, I think it's the most fair timing. Is everyone going to know all the other cards? Not always, but I still think it's the best timing to use.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

...Anyhow, I think in the old thread, I also suggested that Treacherous should use the same timing as Biggs, et al.

I'll admit that the argument isn't perfect. Isn't really supported by much. Still, in absence of other information, I think it's the most fair timing. Is everyone going to know all the other cards? Not always, but I still think it's the best timing to use.

Indeed you did suggest that, and I agree that in most cases Before Neutralize Results is the best timing for cancelling results regardless of fairness or consistency, it's just the most strategic time to do it.

I would like to see implied language be written explicitly in the Rules Reference r ather than applied on the fly. Until they make a "that's reminder text" update to restrict cancelling results to the Neutralize Results step I will have few qualms about cancelling Seyn's crit before he can deal a damage card or waiting until End of the Neutralize Results step to cancel a result.

I wouldn't fight a Marshall over it at an event though.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Treacherous! That's what that was! I knew there was some card discussed onhere recently which had a similar text to these, but didn't have that "before the neutralize results step." Treacherous also physically lacks the space on the card for using that timing language...

When I have previously suggested they left off a restriction because of card space Grappling Struts (open) was brought up as a counter example. It does appear to use a size or two smaller font than other cards, maxes out the margins, and does away with paragraph breaks: