Hey look, an article!
Another unit guide for your reading pleasure.
Shore Trooper Unit Guide - Fifth Trooper Blog
55 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:Hey look, an article!
Another unit guide for your reading pleasure.
Very good write up. Thank you for this.
Why do people complain about Shores and not Veterans?
1 hour ago, NukeMaster said:Why do people complain about Shores and not Veterans?
Free aim tokens instead of a regenrating dodge you have to find an action for?
Edit: action economy has always been an issue with ffg's game balance in general. Shores are the latest example
Edited by Ralgon2 hours ago, NukeMaster said:Why do people complain about Shores and not Veterans?
Cause several aim tokens stacks and let's you roll full hits or alot of crits and you decide when to use them.
Dodges only work if you get attacked and your opponent decide when to use them. So even if your veteran squad has 2 dodges they can shoot your other units or just roll enough crits with aim and critical to ignore your dodges.
8 hours ago, NukeMaster said:Why do people complain about Shores and not Veterans?
I thought the same thing, but then when you look at the stat line of both units it's very obvious that shores are superior in every way.
#1 Free Aims are better than free dodges (in most cases). Generally, aims allow you to be proactive while dodges allow you to be reactive. You will always get value out of aims (unless you're incredibly lucky). Dodges are situational (your opponent can always choose not to shoot at that unit).
#2 Shore's Heavy weapon (Range 4, 2 black 2 white, critical 1) is much better than Veteran's heavy weapon (Range 3, 4 white, critical 2). Range 4 is so much better than range 3 and Rebels Critical 2 is useless in most scenarios since the unit already has surge -> hit. Also, the dice pool is better.
#3 Shores benefit from surge tokens while Vets do not. In addition, Red defense are insanely strong with surge defense...
Both Shores and Vets can manipulate action advantage, it's just that shores (84 points) are better than vets (74 points).
18 hours ago, NukeMaster said:Why do people complain about Shores and not Veterans?
Others have already touched on these points; there are a few things that have to do with the unit themselves, and others with their emplacements, and finally still others with available synergies.
As far as the raw unit is concerned:
-Shores have nearly the same offensive output at Range 3 as Vets, before accounting for aims. Their Critical Weapon is also excellent dice at Range 4.
-Shores have a red save, which can be further upgraded to red/surge with surge tokens (Vets have white and don't benefit at all from surge tokens)
-Target is better than Defend for a variety of reasons others have already mentioned.
-Z-6s are still more efficient than Vets and the latter don't really offer anything special by comparison, except access to the Mk2.
With respect to the emplacements:
-Mortars don't want or need orders, while the Mk2 certainly does. This allows the mortar to be used as a relay platform and remain effective as a long range suppression/crit machine. The mortar is also cheaper.
-The mortar is far more survivable with longer range and red dice.
With respect to the relay gimmick:
-Empire has access to a free way to start a relay chain (Entourage) even on turns when no orders are being handed out via command cards (such as Voracious Ambition). The commander that enables this (Krennic) also has two command slots, perfect for the Strict Orders and Aggressive tactics synergies.
All that said; Rebels have plenty of other great units, especially Rotaries, Tauntauns, Leia, and Luke (both versions). The new FD is really solid. Their snipers are still great too. The vets/shore comparison is certainly not a flattering one though.
Thanks for the write-up and list ideas
That was a good write up, but I hope Shores/Mortars/Comms Relay get nerfed sooner than later (along with Tauntauns of course). They’re all the worst kind of power creep. When all of it is less than two DLT storms (the units that should be the meter... sorry, the yard stick by which all other units are measured, it is power creep, pure and simple).
10 hours ago, JediPartisan said:That was a good write up, but I hope Shores/Mortars/Comms Relay get nerfed sooner than later (along with Tauntauns of course). They’re all the worst kind of power creep. When all of it is less than two DLT storms (the units that should be the meter... sorry, the yard stick by which all other units are measured, it is power creep, pure and simple).
Keep in mind, that DLT Storms have some advantages over Shores/Mortar. For 11 points more, 2 DLT squads have 2 more total wounds with the same defense, yield more total hits on average (assuming aim tokens on everything, 4.4 per DLT squad vs 5.13+1.05 for Shores/Mortar, assuming my rough math is correct), and gives you two units capable of contributing to every objective, unlike Shores/Mortar. Also, Stormtroopers are much better in Melee (they're actually the best melee Corps unit).
Edit: I should point out that the 11 point difference assumes the Mortar has Comms Relay.
Edited by Lochlan3 hours ago, Lochlan said:Keep in mind, that DLT Storms have some advantages over Shores/Mortar. For 11 points more, 2 DLT squads have 2 more total wounds with the same defense, yield more total hits on average (assuming aim tokens on everything, 4.4 per DLT squad vs 5.13+1.05 for Shores/Mortar, assuming my rough math is correct), and gives you two units capable of contributing to every objective, unlike Shores/Mortar. Also, Stormtroopers are much better in Melee (they're actually the best melee Corps unit).
Edit: I should point out that the 11 point difference assumes the Mortar has Comms Relay.
I think a big part of their strength is action control. Not only are you able to maximize aggressive tactics every turn, but get to control when your units activate.
Also, shores will always have more aims than storm troopers. Given his strategy, they will start the turn with an aim and can aim again, or move to get in better position.
4 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:I think a big part of their strength is action control. Not only are you able to maximize aggressive tactics every turn, but get to control when your units activate.
Also, shores will always have more aims than storm troopers. Given his strategy, they will start the turn with an aim and can aim again, or move to get in better position.
Yeah, they definitely have some great strengths. There's a reason they see so much use. I just wanted to point out that they aren't flat-out better than Stormtroopers.
3 hours ago, Lochlan said:Yeah, they definitely have some great strengths. There's a reason they see so much use. I just wanted to point out that they aren't flat-out better than Stormtroopers.
That still just gives imps options between 3/3 and 2/2/2.
On 11/16/2019 at 12:37 AM, Orkimedes said:.
-Z-6s are still more efficient than Vets and the latter don't really offer anything special by comparison, except access to the Mk2.
Not sure I agree with that
Z6 + rebel troopers 2 hits from the troopers, 1.5 from the z6 for 3.5 DMG for 62 pts
Cm+ Rebel Veterans 2.5 hits from the troopers and 1.5 from the heavy =4 DMG for 74 .
Or to put it another way 0.056 pts per hit vs 0.054 pts per hit (so all being equal , the z6 is more efficient before you factor in critical 2 which is going to push through on efficiency against shooting into dodge/cover where you roll low damage , shooting into guardian with vets will always be more effective, as will shooting armor. Now while this is only situational advantage it happens often enough to make it worthwhile and against more varied armies you will have the advantage against rebel troopers. With offensive push coming (which isn't natively available for Rebel troopers ) the damage will further increase with an aim, but by that time he better comparison will be against the dlt20a along with offensive push and a rebel captain although that's 84 pts vs a veteran equivalent of 90. The critical 1 on that thing will often push through 1 extra crit damage per shot from a undamaged unit + heavy
Thanks a bunch for the write up. Definitely appreciate the ideas on how to effectively run shoretroopers as well as things to look for to counter them.
That being said, I do think the order relay shenanigans are a bit too much though. Unless I had a discussion with my opponent ahead of time detailing exactly the list I'm building and why, I don't think I could in good conscience bust out the relay train in the friendly games I play. It doesn't sit right with me.
Conversely, I don't mind if I face it. I like a challenge.
2 hours ago, Prokins said:Thanks a bunch for the write up. Definitely appreciate the ideas on how to effectively run shoretroopers as well as things to look for to counter them.
That being said, I do think the order relay shenanigans are a bit too much though. Unless I had a discussion with my opponent ahead of time detailing exactly the list I'm building and why, I don't think I could in good conscience bust out the relay train in the friendly games I play. It doesn't sit right with me.
Conversely, I don't mind if I face it. I like a challenge.
It isn't as strong as you make it out to be. It's good. Just like x3 Tautauns are good.
On 11/14/2019 at 11:21 AM, Orkimedes said:Hey look, an article!
Another unit guide for your reading pleasure.
The article says:
" Range for coordinate is measured from any mini to any mini, which means you can spread out your effective Coordinate range by using cohesion."
The RRG says:
After a unit with the coordinate keyword is issued an order, it may issue an order to a friendly unit at range 1 that has the unit name or type specified by the coordinate keyword.
It was my understanding range is always measured unit leader to unit leader. Please help me understand where I have this wrong.
22 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:The article says:
" Range for coordinate is measured from any mini to any mini, which means you can spread out your effective Coordinate range by using cohesion."
The RRG says:
After a unit with the coordinate keyword is issued an order, it may issue an order to a friendly unit at range 1 that has the unit name or type specified by the coordinate keyword.
It was my understanding range is always measured unit leader to unit leader. Please help me understand where I have this wrong.
Only for attack or cards that state that it requires leader to unit, (also attack is leader to closet model in target unit). Otherwise from RRG: under Range
When measuring range between units for any game effect other than an attack, range is measured from the closest mini in one unit to the closest mini in the other unit
9 minutes ago, Gridloc said:Only for attack or cards that state that it requires leader to unit, (also attack is leader to closet model in target unit). Otherwise from RRG: under Range
When measuring range between units for any game effect other than an attack, range is measured from the closest mini in one unit to the closest mini in the other unit
Thanks. I was working off of faulty assumptions. I appreciate the info!
Time to start using comms jammers i believe but i also think that shores with comms relay are a bit over the top. next to perfect activation control even on 1 pip cards is nasty