24 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Lies, **** lies, and statistics

H o s s doesn't even make sense here

1 hour ago, prauxim said:

I got black HT dice using Luminara, not that that really proves anything about experience or list building skill

I asked more for context. You provided that, thanks!

So the /v1 is clearly good in general. This is pretty well established by the performances of the generic Inquisitor, and the boss Grand Inquisitor. Generic gets used usually with Conc Missiles, usually with Jendon, but just Foresight is a new trend (seems great for the price in Epic). TGI is a strong Init 5 ace in his own right. If the other pilots are very good, why haven't folks used more Sev? Is it that she's bad in herself, or is there something else going on? I'm inclined to say we don't see too much Seventh Sister because of Strikers. (Luminara comparison is really quite silly since Empire lists can't run Lumi.)

So Sev compares to Duchess or Pure Sabacc or Countdown. She's the same price as a Crack Shot Duchess, and a few cheap upgrades (Hate or FCS) would put her in about the same price-range as a Pure Sabacc or Countdown.

• So what does a Striker do that Sev doesn't?
  • 3 red dice attacks. Maybe 4 dice. Sev's ability narrows the gap considerably compared to, like, Jake Farrell, but Strikers still have a lot of hitting potential.
• But what can Sev do that a Striker doesn't?
  • Protect points. Strikers are great. But expect them to die. Upgrades other than Crack Shot or Predator are. Maybe Duchess can arc dodge well enough, but Pure Sabacc is going to get plastered eventually, and it's just a game of whether or not you can get those attacks off first. Countdown dies slowly, but his death is pretty much inevitable. Seventh Sister, however? She can tank a lot better than a Striker. We can nitpick over how much of a difference Focus/Force and Evade/Force does on 3 green dice compared to multiple attacks. Eh, whatever. Force/Evade 3 Green goes a **** of a lot further against any number of attacks than Focus or Evade on 2 Green.

So should more Imperial lists include Seventh Sister? Probably. She's not always going to be better than Duchess, but sometimes she probably is. But Strikers were Hyperspace first, and first impressions all went towards Strikers (v1 released wicked overpriced...).

//

Anyhow, there's one reason and one reason only I don't have Seventh Sister in my double VT-49 list and run Duchess instead: Sev crew is already on one of the Patrol Leaders. 😛

You guys have convinced me at least, I’m definitely going to be giving 7th a try at our casual night.

42 minutes ago, prauxim said:

The confusion lies here: I never said 7S was bad, just that she was a "worse Luminara",

Why does it even matter? If someone is flying Empire, they dont have access to Luminara, or even Lulo, or a Uwing - all great 43pt ships. They have access to 7th Sister, Dutchess, and Reapers. Those are relevant comparisons. Lumi and 7th Sis are in separate factions that have different wingmates and fly completely different from one another. They are also costed/balanced around their faction as well. Im not, not going to fly 7th Sister because a different pilot with a different ability in a different faction is slightly better for 43pts.

"Hey, why fly Grand Inquisistor? CLT Obi-Wan is same cost (1pt cheaper actually) and you get 3 force."

"Because I am flying EMPIRE!!!!" 👍

32 minutes ago, wurms said:

Why does it even matter? If someone is flying Empire, they dont have access to Luminara, or even Lulo, or a Uwing - all great 43pt ships. They have access to 7th Sister, Dutchess, and Reapers. Those are relevant comparisons. Lumi and 7th Sis are in separate factions that have different wingmates and fly completely different from one another. They are also costed/balanced around their faction as well. Im not, not going to fly 7th Sister because a different pilot with a different ability in a different faction is slightly better for 43pts.

"Hey, why fly Grand Inquisistor? CLT Obi-Wan is same cost (1pt cheaper actually) and you get 3 force."

"Because I am flying EMPIRE!!!!" 👍

Make sense to me. It's not about the comparison in the vacuum like you're implying. We know that Imp have the pieces to build lists that are competitive with the top republic pieces, we know Lum is a tier below top Republic pieces, ergo making a case the Lum is stronger for similar price implies 7th Sister probably isn't at the top of the Imperial power curve.

But on a macro level, step back and look at your comment. Are you telling me you never make out of faction comparisons? You can't honestly tell me that post is objective and not a bandwagon response.

I'm surprised people are not running her more. I won a 20 person league months ago with a Sev+2 Inq+Jendon list.

I think her special ability should be used sparingly since it drains all of her force, but she can get that clutch damage through to win you the game when you need it.

One way to mitigate her force drain is to put Palp on the shuttle. That way she always has a mod.

1 hour ago, prauxim said:

Make sense to me. It's not about the comparison in the vacuum like you're implying. We know that Imp have the pieces to build lists that are competitive with the top republic pieces, we know Lum is a tier below top Republic pieces, ergo making a case the Lum is stronger for similar price implies 7th Sister probably isn't at the top of the Imperial power curve.

But on a macro level, step back and look at your comment. Are you telling me you never make out of faction comparisons? You can't honestly tell me that post is objective and not a bandwagon response.

Everyone does cross faction comparisons, but its not relevant in this thread, for your argument. Bio was saying 7th Sis is not as bad as people think, and is actually decent in a competitive environment and your argument is "She isn't as good as Luminara." If Bio stated "7th Sister is the best 43pts you can spend in the game." Now you can bring in Luminara comparison. Why not argue Dutchess for 42pts is better? That would actually provide substance to the thread. If someone makes a thread "New Respect for Old Teroch" you can't just chime in with "Wedge for 55pts is just better"

Also, bring Lumi into Empire faction, than compare her to 7th Sis. Lumi being B-tier in Republic, does not mean she would be B-Tier in Empire - I would love some Vader, Whisper, Lumi in my life. Im pretty sure Lumi in Empire supporting their 3 agility, or natty evade aces is straight up A-Tier or even S, which means 7th sis, who is slightly less worse than Lumi, according to you, is actually around A-Tier-ish. While Lumi in a faction like CIS is probably back at B-Tier at best trying to support 2 agility 3 hull droids while 7th sis is a better fit for CIS for a cheap pocket ace with evade + force + Sense for droids to block.

5 hours ago, prauxim said:

The largest event 7S ever made the cut had 36 players, another had 35, and both of those Concs which as I already said was one way 7S could eek out an advantage The rest had under 15 people!!

Incorrect:
Liam Earley took Seventh Sister to Top Cut in the Australian System Open (got kicked out by Morgan Reid in Top 29). Was also 13th in Swiss. 255 players.

Darth Vader + Fire-Control System + Afterburners
Soontir Fel + Predator + Shield Upgrade
Seventh Sister + Hate + Fire-Control System

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1038

EDIT
Also Top 16 (13th in Swiss, 65 players) in Sweden's Grand last weekend:

Colonel Vessery + Crack Shot
Darth Vader + Fire-Control System
Seventh Sister + Fire-Control System

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1285

I find this one interesting... Initiative matching Vessery and Seventh Sister seems like a good call.... but I would worry a little about fragility on entry... But I suppose that, if your opponent is pointing at Seventh Sister, they then have to contend with Vader and a Defender afterwards and she is only 45 points. That's a bargain.

40 minutes ago, Vespid1311 said:

EDIT
Also Top 16 (13th in Swiss, 65 players) in Sweden's Grand last weekend:

Colonel Vessery + Crack Shot
Darth Vader + Fire-Control System
Seventh Sister + Fire-Control System

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1285

I find this one interesting... Initiative matching Vessery and Seventh Sister seems like a good call.... but I would worry a little about fragility on entry... But I suppose that, if your opponent is pointing at Seventh Sister, they then have to contend with Vader and a Defender afterwards and she is only 45 points. That's a bargain.

That does look interesting. I wonder why not bump vader to passive to allow max TL flexibility.

The fragility conern is legit though, i4 v1 wanting to TL and not repo/focus on the initial engagement (probably?)

45 minutes ago, prauxim said:

The rest of the title says "Either 7S or the force is undercosted".

Incorrect. The title is New Respect for 7S, or the force is undercosted.

Suck my nuts

12 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

Incorrect. The title is New Respect for 7S, or the force is undercosted.

Suck my nuts

I dropped smn on somebody for telling me I wasnt allowed to post my opinion about force ship costing in a thread about force ship costing. You did it because I paraphrased. Nice job dude.

1 minute ago, prauxim said:

I dropped smn on somebody for telling me I wasnt allowed to post my opinion about force ship costing in a thread about force ship costing. You did it because I paraphrased. Nice job dude.

No I did it because you're misrepresenting Bios title. He did not claim 7S was undercosted, but rather force as a whole is

Suck

My

Nuts

7 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

No I did it because you're misrepresenting Bios title. He did not claim 7S was undercosted, but rather force as a whole is

Suck

My

Nuts

Didn't misrepresent anything, just making a contextually accurate shortening. Claiming something is good for its cost (which the OP definitely does) is equivalent to claiming its undercosted.

Regardless, discussion of Luminara would still be warranted to address the force statement

Try harder to impress your senpai bruh

For clarity, the it's not "either/or" in the title, it's two alternate titles.

"New Respect for 7th Sister"

Or

"The force is undercosted and I wasnt paying attention"

As in, of course 7th Sister is better than I thought because she's cheap and has force.

Sorry for the confusion.

32 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

No I did it because you're misrepresenting Bios title. He did not claim 7S was undercosted, but rather force as a whole is

Suck

My

Nuts

7 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Didn't misrepresent anything, just making a contextually accurate shortening. Claiming something is good for its cost (which the OP definitely does) is equivalent to claiming its undercosted.

Regardless, discussion of Luminara would still be warranted to address the force statement

Try harder to impress your senpai bruh

Girls, girls, you're BOTH pretty. 😏

5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

For clarity, the it's not "either/or" in the title, it's two alternate titles.

"New Respect for 7th Sister"

Or

"The force is undercosted and I wasnt paying attention"

As in, of course 7th Sister is better than I thought because she's cheap and has force.

Sorry for the confusion.

Admittedly I did misread that. Still, I think the Lum is a relevant comparison.

On that note you highness, one of your acolytes presumed to understand your divine will regarding weather or not I was allowed to make said comparison, it'd be dope if you could give him a few extra lashes in the ceremony tonite for his hubris

14 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

For clarity, the it's not "either/or" in the title, it's two alternate titles.

"New Respect for 7th Sister"

Or

"The force is undercosted and I wasnt paying attention"

As in, of course 7th Sister is better than I thought because she's cheap and has force.

Sorry for the confusion.

I mean, if someone didn't pick up on that, it's on them. It's a pretty classic structure for a title.

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

11 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

Exactly.

4 minutes ago, prauxim said:

**** dude, not you too. Both interpretations are equally valid, considering the lack of punctuation and inconsistent capitalization. I hope Bio doesn't have any suppressed nationalistic tendencies, you guys would sing up for his 4th reich in a heartbeat.

>Lack of punctuation

>"New Respect for 7th Sister, or Force is underpriced and I wasnt paying attention"

10 minutes ago, prauxim said:

You see, in English, its common to have commas in phrases

Dual titles, which are rare, should have colon/semi-colons

Grovel better man, or he won't let you wash his feet later

Yes but when listing grammatical elements related by or, you do not separate them with a comma.

For instance:

"Are you stupid, or trolling?"

Is incorrect.

By using a comma, Bio was indicating the statements "New respect for 7S" and "force is undercosted" are unrelated

@Biophysical can I suck them toes now

I really wish this thread hadn't devolved into grammar discussions.

Just now, Biophysical said:

I really wish this thread hadn't devolved into grammar discussions.

They always do....

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

I really wish this thread hadn't devolved into grammar discussions.

Guess that's a no 😞