1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

The availability of resources for defense or offense will depend entirely on your opponent and in-game situation. If 7th is the target, you have force+evade for defense, if you have her on a flank you can spend actions/force on offense. Her ability and native chassis abilities are such that she can flex resources very effectively toward different goals.

So she's in a defensive situation, she evades and has 2 force/evade. Jedi can't do that. She is in a position to be aggressive, and she can reposition, focus, and depending on the opposing roll cancel an Evade. That swing between offensive and defensive capability is big. She tanks a lot harder in lots of situations and hits a lot harder in lots of situations. She's 43 points, she doesn't have to do both at the same time.

The fact that you consider the white Evade to be a niche use is bizarre, and suggests to me that you don't really have experience with or against Inquisitors.

I have lots experience with force ships that are actually good, and a mountain of data agrees with me

But hey, maybe me and the community at large are wrong, let us know when you prove 7th can carry her weight in a competitive setting without using Sense or Concs, I will happily eat my words

15 hours ago, prauxim said:

I have lots experience with force ships that are actually good, and a mountain of data agrees with me

But hey, maybe me and the community at large are wrong, let us know when you prove 7th can carry her weight in a competitive setting without using Sense or Concs, I will happily eat my words

Top 8 at the St. Louis GC last weekend. I was knocked out by the runner up. It was the first time I'd taken the squad to a tournament.

7th Sister is a cheap filler ship that brings a lot of capability for the points she costs, and is definitely worth checking out if anyone has a need for a low 40s ship in their squad and Duchess isn't working out.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I'm on the fence on as to whether a SuperInq is better value. They're almost different ships, feels like an either/or, but adjustments have to be made to the whole approach. Supers do kinda need Concs, which makes for a few more points and potential squad changes.

I've been running them a lot lately with Proton Rockets. Sure, it's a one shot deal vs the multiple charges on the usual clusters/concs, but they hit really hard with focus/lock, and are not hard to line up with that pre-move reposition. They've won games in those attacks. The fall down against Imperial and Republic aces like (ironically) GI and Ani, but they're not really there for them.

33 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

The availability of resources for defense or offense will depend entirely on your opponent and in-game situation. If 7th is the target, you have force+evade for defense, if you have her on a flank you can spend actions/force on offense. Her ability and native chassis abilities are such that she can flex resources very effectively toward different goals.

So she's in a defensive situation, she evades and has 2 force/evade. Jedi can't do that. She is in a position to be aggressive, and she can reposition, focus, and depending on the opposing roll cancel an Evade. That swing between offensive and defensive capability is big. She tanks a lot harder in lots of situations and hits a lot harder in lots of situations. She's 43 points, she doesn't have to do both at the same time.

The fact that you consider the white Evade to be a niche use is bizarre, and suggests to me that you don't really have experience with or against Inquisitors.

This. Talking about efficiency in the vacuum of pure theory doesn't hold a candle to real life returns. Number crushing doesn't account for anything once you're actually pushing plastic around a table. If it did, there'd be one build, everyone would use it, and we'd all go back to checkers. Fact is, the kind of lists she'll usually be in will have bigger threats to deal with, so either she'll be targeted to the detriment of the person doing so as the other aces swoop in unaffected, or she'll be left alone to deal with the big boys, and she'll knife fight her way around arcs and into better shots.

I literally played ten games with V1s at the weekend. Five with just Inquisitors, four with Seven, and one with just Barons (because I've had five V1s since 1E and I need to justify that stupid decision). I'm convinced the only reason we don't see her on the table more is she's sitting between two choices that fit better in other lists. Inquisitors are 50/51 points if you go to town on them, and GI is an ace you can chuck in naked with a high I and great ability. Seven is worth it for the force, if not the ability.

12 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I've been running them a lot lately with Proton Rockets. Sure, it's a one shot deal vs the multiple charges on the usual clusters/concs, but they hit really hard with focus/lock, and are not hard to line up with that pre-move reposition. They've won games in those attacks. The fall down against Imperial and Republic aces like (ironically) GI and Ani, but they're not really there for them.

This. Talking about efficiency in the vacuum of pure theory doesn't hold a candle to real life returns. Number crushing doesn't account for anything once you're actually pushing plastic around a table. If it did, there'd be one build, everyone would use it, and we'd all go back to checkers. Fact is, the kind of lists she'll usually be in will have bigger threats to deal with, so either she'll be targeted to the detriment of the person doing so as the other aces swoop in unaffected, or she'll be left alone to deal with the big boys, and she'll knife fight her way around arcs and into better shots.

I literally played ten games with V1s at the weekend. Five with just Inquisitors, four with Seven, and one with just Barons (because I've had five V1s since 1E and I need to justify that stupid decision). I'm convinced the only reason we don't see her on the table more is she's sitting between two choices that fit better in other lists. Inquisitors are 50/51 points if you go to town on them, and GI is an ace you can chuck in naked with a high I and great ability. Seven is worth it for the force, if not the ability.

The bolded section is basically the long and short of it. She's effective for the points, and at 43, she occupies a niche cheaper than GI, but still very effective, allowing more expensive primary and secondary aces.

Stop talking about v1's. They're already going back up in points next pass. Let my beautiful babies be!

5 hours ago, prauxim said:

I have lots experience with force ships that are actually good, and a mountain of data agrees with me

The data that's available actually shows a win rate in line with obi wan but with a much lower sample size of course.

But why let fact ruin a good argument.

v1 force users are strong ships.

Wether you run them nekkid as cheap tank/filler or with ordnance.

To the OP, probably both? I think there are probably a handful of solid to exceptional pilots that are hiding behind the breakout stars of the current meta. Hopefully the next point change sees more of them come out and play. Init 4 can be a strong play but the upgrade to init 5 is often more attractive for the points.

Looking at force pricing: Sister VII gets init 4 over the generic Inq's which is a two point bump or so. Her ability is only helpful if she is being ignored but makes her dangerous to ignore. If it was available as a unique force power, I don't see how it could be cheaper than 2 points. Which means Sissy is getting an extra force charge for 4 points. That's insane value.

Somebody pointed out a while ago that most force users with 2 or 3 charges are getting them apparently without an appropriate force tax. Compared to force crew and gunners, Sister Siete gets her extra force charge stupid cheap.

2 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

To the OP, probably both? I think there are probably a handful of solid to exceptional pilots that are hiding behind the breakout stars of the current meta. Hopefully the next point change sees more of them come out and play. Init 4 can be a strong play but the upgrade to init 5 is often more attractive for the points.

Looking at force pricing: Sister VII gets init 4 over the generic Inq's which is a two point bump or so. Her ability is only helpful if she is being ignored but makes her dangerous to ignore. If it was available as a unique force power, I don't see how it could be cheaper than 2 points. Which means Sissy is getting an extra force charge for 4 points. That's insane value.

Somebody pointed out a while ago that most force users with 2 or 3 charges are getting them apparently without an appropriate force tax. Compared to force crew and gunners, Sister Siete gets her extra force charge stupid cheap.

It's definitely both .

12 hours ago, prauxim said:

I have lots experience with force ships that are actually good

Define "experience". Like, can you point it out to us on ListFortress?

The comparison to to the Aethersprite is kinda pointless imo

Identical health and agility aside, they've got vastly different characteristics

The Aethersprite can innately double repo with no stress

The v1 can repo into a red focus, repositioning and gaining a mod without giving up force tokens. It can also white evade, i.e mods without losing force

Lastly, and definitely not least, they're in two different factions with very different strengths

The empire has access to ridiculously efficient aces via Vader and fifth bro Whisper. The Republic has stupidly good repositioning capabilities, but also only has the Sprite as a reliable "ace" platform (sorry, n1 )

Between the two, however, it seems like the empire is simply easier to leverage because mods are easier to use relative to repositioning. Just passive sensor and tank up!

The v1 compliments the ease of imperial mod stacking, wheras the Sprite is kinda the unicorn of its faction

My two cents:

She’s in the same bracket, price wise, as duchess. IMHO if you’re bidding, run Duchess, if you’re not, run Sister.

I agree with OP wholeheartedly. She’s a sleeper. Her value is she’s NEVER first target. She’s only ever an opportunistic target. So she’s going around crackshotting, hitting harder than her weight class.

Just remember when 1.0 meta said that ion was nothing, brobots were nothing, everything was broken, then a kid with brobots took worlds. 😜😝

18 hours ago, prauxim said:

2 force isn't at all representative of the tokens the ship will typically have access to for defense, of course if you assume that it'll drown out the effect of a focus token.

Not to mention the fact that using your last force token comes with the highest opportunity cost for attack.

1 force/3 attacks focus vs evade. Difference is 0.14.

But still in favor of the evade? And any less attacks or more force and the evade looks even better

Lol at everyone bending over backwards to defend their messiah. Guys plz, this inst the krayt circle jerk thread

15 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Top 8 at the St. Louis GC last weekend. I was knocked out by the runner up. It was the first time I'd taken the squad to a tournament.

7th Sister is a cheap filler ship that brings a lot of capability for the points she costs, and is definitleycwprth checking out if anyone has a need for a low 40s ship in their squad and Duchess isn't working out.

Congrats, what was the full list?

I totally agree with you summation, but a 8/?? finish doesn't really support you argument that 7S (sans Concussion) is significantly better than Luminara who has multiple top 4 finishes at huge tourneys

10 hours ago, mcgreag said:

The data that's available actually shows a win rate in line with obi wan but with a much lower sample size of course.

But why let fact ruin a good argument.

You are accusing me of skirting the facts? LOL. Not only is your sample size small, but the data points (other than bios result) are hot garbage

The largest event 7S ever made the cut had 36 players, another had 35, and both of those Concs which as I already said was one way 7S could eek out an advantage The rest had under 15 people!!

Luminara has dozens of top finishes at huge tourneys

Despite what they spew in the echo chamber, raw cut-rate isn't the holy grail of ship performance, not only does the raw cut % include garbage data from tiny tourneys (e.g. as per your example) it also includes people who are below the skill floor who are bandwagoning or just like the ship. A skilled player testing lists for months, landing on a certain pilot, then top-tabling at a 100+ person event weighs 100x more than a rando player in terms of indicating a ship's competitiveness

3 hours ago, gennataos said:

Define "experience". Like, can you point it out to us on ListFortress?

I got black HT dice using Luminara, not that that really proves anything about experience or list building skill, the vast majority of top table lists are net-decked. I am gonna hold off on dropping my real name in case one of you Bio-zealots try to DDOS me.

What did I just read?

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

But still in favor of the evade? And any less attacks or more force and the evade looks even better

Yeah, but then factor in offensive opportunity cost, esp considering shutting down her ability

Im not saying the defensive capability isnt higher due to white evade, I'm just saying it's not better than FTC + access to CLT

2 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Lol at everyone bending over backwards to defend their messiah. Guys plz, this inst the krayt circle jerk thread

Congrats, what was the full list?

I totally agree with you summation, but a 8/?? finish doesn't really support you argument that 7S (sans Concussion) is significantly better than Luminara who has multiple top 4 finishes at huge tourneys

You are accusing me of skirting the facts? LOL. Not only is your sample size small, but the data points (other than bios result) are hot garbage

The largest event 7S ever made the cut had 36 players, another had 35, and both of those Concs which as I already said was one way 7S could eek out an advantage The rest had under 15 people!!

Luminara has dozens of top finishes at huge tourneys

Despite what they spew in the echo chamber, raw cut-rate isn't the holy grail of ship performance, not only does the raw cut % include garbage data from tiny tourneys (e.g. as per your example) it also includes people who are below the skill floor who are bandwagoning or just like the ship. A skilled player testing lists for months, landing on a certain pilot, then top-tabling at a 100+ person event weighs 100x more than a rando player in terms of indicating a ship's competitiveness

I got black HT dice using Luminara, not that that really proves anything that anything about experience or list building skill, the vast majority of top table lists are net-decked. I am gonna hold off on dropping my real name in case one of you Bio-zealots try to DDOS me.

1.) Not a Krayt

2.) Soontir/Targeting Computer/Crack Shot, Rexler/Lone Wolf/Advanced Sensors, 7th Sister. I was really trying to make Rexler work because my friend got me the alt art from Worlds

3.) Can you point me toward the Luminara lists? I've only seen her has the extra ship in a Sinker Swarm before Ric came along.

4.) I'll make no arguments about cut rate, and I don't think I have a history of doing so. I'm only making arguments on in-game factors.

5.) I hereby command all of my zealots to refrain from any kind of attack on anyone (outside of the game, at least, pewpews are still allowed). My cult is a voluntaryist organization and requires neither taxes nor supplication from non-members.

10 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Lol at everyone bending over backwards to defend their messiah. Guys plz, this inst the krayt circle jerk thread

Congrats, what was the full list?

I totally agree with you summation, but a 8/?? finish doesn't really support you argument that 7S (sans Concussion) is significantly better than Luminara who has multiple top 4 finishes at huge tourneys

You are accusing me of skirting the facts? LOL. Not only is your sample size small, but the data points (other than bios result) are hot garbage

The largest event 7S ever made the cut had 36 players, another had 35, and both of those Concs which as I already said was one way 7S could eek out an advantage The rest had under 15 people!!

Luminara has dozens of top finishes at huge tourneys

Despite what they spew in the echo chamber, raw cut-rate isn't the holy grail of ship performance, not only does the raw cut % include garbage data from tiny tourneys (e.g. as per your example) it also includes people who are below the skill floor who are bandwagoning or just like the ship. A skilled player testing lists for months, landing on a certain pilot, then top-tabling at a 100+ person event weighs 100x more than a rando player in terms of indicating a ship's competitiveness

I got black HT dice using Luminara, not that that really proves anything about experience or list building skill, the vast majority of top table lists are net-decked. I am gonna hold off on dropping my real name in case one of you Bio-zealots try to DDOS me.

15 hours ago, prauxim said:

But hey, maybe me and the community at large are wrong, let us know when you prove 7th can carry her weight in a competitive setting without using Sense or Concs, I will happily eat my words

15 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Top 8 at the St. Louis GC last weekend. I was knocked out by the runner up. It was the first time I'd taken the squad to a tournament.

12 minutes ago, prauxim said:

I totally agree with you summation, but a 8/?? finish doesn't really support you argument that 7S (sans Concussion) is significantly better than Luminara who has multiple top 4 finishes at huge tourneys

His argument that you wanted to see Bio do well with 7th sister isn't supported by him making top 8 in a grand with 7th sister?

17 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Lol at everyone bending over backwards to defend their messiah. Guys plz, this inst the krayt circle jerk thread

I got black HT dice using Luminara, not that that really proves anything about experience or list building skill, the vast majority of top table lists are net-decked. I am gonna hold off on dropping my real name in case one of you Bio-zealots try to DDOS me.

I don't think people are rushing to the defense of bio my dude, just a bit confused about the strongly antagonistic vibe you're putting into a topic that was essentially "7th sister is neat"

10 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

1.) Not a Krayt

Lies, **** lies, and statistics

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

1.) Not a Krayt

2.) Soontir/Targeting Computer/Crack Shot, Rexler/Lone Wolf/Advanced Sensors, 7th Sister. I was really trying to make Rexler work because my friend got me the alt art from Worlds

3.) Can you point me toward the Luminara lists? I've only seen her has the extra ship in a Sinker Swarm before Ric came along.

4.) I'll make no arguments about cut rate, and I don't think I have a history of doing so. I'm only making arguments on in-game factors.

5.) I hereby command all of my zealots to refrain from any kind of attack on anyone (outside of the game, at least, pewpews are still allowed). My cult is a voluntaryist organization and requires neither taxes nor supplication from non-members.

1) Wasnt calling you one, just calling out the group-think that tends to incubates inside the krayt thread (which, for better or worse, is not explicitly krayt related)
2) Noice, I have a custom painted Defender but gave up defenders early on. I do think 7S works as a pocket ace but I think its more fitment than A-tier efficiency without Concs. TBF Luminara is about fitment as well, but a little more efficient IMO
3) Here is the metawing list for Luminara results, I dont know if you can filter by CLT/7B but 4/144 at Polish nats was Luminara/CLT in a quad CLT list, and many other loadouts
4) Yeah was mainly responding to mcgreag's bogus Obi comparison
5) Much appreciated, lol

Been saying for months that people were sleeping on 7th Sister. The points dropped helped, and the meta has shifted a bit, but she has always been an effective pilot/ship.

9 minutes ago, jagsba said:

His argument that you wanted to see Bio do well with 7th sister isn't supported by him making top 8 in a grand with 7th sister?

4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I don't think people are rushing to the defense of bio my dude, just a bit confused about the strongly antagonistic vibe you're putting into a topic that was essentially "7th sister is neat"

The confusion lies here: I never said 7S was bad, just that she was a "worse Luminara", which tbf maybe could have been worded better. Me and Bio then started debating about access to white evade being good enough offset Lum's access to FTC and CLT, which I just totally disagree with. I never argued that 7S couldn't do well or wasn't neat

12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Lies, **** lies, and statistics

Missed opportunity for Saw Guererra meme.