Just wondering what the general opinion in the community is? Would you rather see completely separate factions added to the game, or would you prefer that subfactions are added to the existing factions?

Let me elaborate on the subfaction idea, as the path forward is clear for separate factions.

My vision for subfactions is simple: a number of units will be added to the existing faction. Let's use Gungans for example. A GAR army could maybe take a maximum of two Gungan units, to represent their scarcity outside of Gungan-specific battles. However, a Gungan GAR army could be fielded with exclusively Gungan units, or maybe like a maximum of three GAR units.

The way things are looking at the moment, I prefer the subfaction idea, because it means that new units, factions and playstyles can develop organically. Instead of waiting 2 years for a new 2 faction starter, those units could be introduced gradually.

What do you guys think? If you prefer factions, which factions do you think could realistically contribute enough different units to make them interesting and different(looking at you, Resistance)? If you prefer subfactions, what subfactions do you think should be introduced and how do you think that should look?

Edit: I want to clarify that I am not talking about adding units to the four main armies and then telling players they can only take 1 of them. I'm talking about adding entire separate factions to the game, but allowing crossover between them. A Wookie Army, but some wookie units are available to GAR or Rebellion. A "Scum" faction, but we see Boba Fett in Empire and Cad Bane in CIS. This way, we have cross-pollination. In regards to sales, even if one subfaction ends up being considered "weak", some of those models will be sold to players of other factions. Right now a GAR player does not need a box of Wookies. Also, this is Star Wars. People will play the armies.

Edit 2: Thank you to devin.pike.1989 for pointing out my mistake here. What I mean to say is that I would like to see more factions added to the game, but with crossover units, i.e. a Wookie faction, but some of their units are available to GAR or Rebellion. I'll leave the original so the comments don't seem out of place. I did not mean a "true" subfaction, despite using that terminology. Sorry about that.

I am very much against list-restriction based subfactions. It removes choice from the game and pigeonholes people into particular design choices. It will also lead to certain subfactions being ruled out as competitively unplayable and therefore those units will never be used. If you want to add theme to a faction, just carefully consider your commander and operative choices. No reason to artificially enforce theme.

Me too.

I've seen too many other game-systems do something like this and it ends up leading to Over/Under power gaming. If there can be a themed army (Wookiees or Gungans) let them exist within the confines of the rules and that be a choice of the gamer not the rules-set.

I'd love more options, but keep those options open, don't restrict them

I think subfaction with no restrictions is the best idea at least for factions like gungans or geanosions. For example just make a few gungan corps 1-2 gungan commanders that u can mix & match and play however u want in a GAR army and build from there. Having said that I'm not interested if they do any sub factions I would much rather run an army of just clones or just droids, then an army of clones and gungans/naboos or droids and geanosions

What about a commander that could also fill an Operative roll depending on the army? In a GAR army, Captain Tarpals is an operative as he shouldn't be commanding clone troopers. In a Gungan army however, He would be the Commander.

Again, why make a new rule when we already have commander/operative variants like luke and vader? If you want to run clones, throw in your operative version. If you want to run gungans throw in the commander variant. That keeps everybody happy while not restricting those who like the idea or the unique synergy of a particular commander with a particular corps. This gets brought up a lot with the "scum" faction discussions. In a game where emperor palpatine can personally lead a force of shoretroopers and snowtroopers on a mission to destroy some moisture vaporators, the idea of the crimson dawn and the Hutts forming a temporary alliance or a gungan officer taking command of a group of clones for a mission is really not that crazy.

1 hour ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

I am very much against list-restriction based subfactions. It removes choice from the game and pigeonholes people into particular design choices. It will also lead to certain subfactions being ruled out as competitively unplayable and therefore those units will never be used. If you want to add theme to a faction, just carefully consider your commander and operative choices. No reason to artificially enforce theme.

Hmm, I don't know if I agree. Not trying to argue, but I don't necessarily understand your position. I come from Infinity, where subfactions are the name of the game, and they never feel unbalanced, so I'm not sure why that would definitely happen here.

Also, isn't that going to be the case to some extent no matter what you do? There will always be units that see less play than others.

My thought is, when you have subfactions in play, you give them a flavor, not an identity. The gungans are really good at this, but that doesn't mean that they can't do anything else, this is just their specialty. So then I can take a unit or two Gungans and sprinkle them into my GAR army to provide some of that tactical flavor, or I can retain a full Gungan list and specialize in one aspect of the game.

I've found in Infinity that the existence of the subfactions drives creative list-building. The absolute perfect combination of things exists, but due to list restrictions, you can't take everything. You must choose which pieces you want the most, and support them however you can within the limits of the rules. Because of these restrictions, units are able to become very distinct. It is the restriction which makes this possible, because without them in place, it would be possible to create "God-tier" lists.

51 minutes ago, Draycos said:

What about a commander that could also fill an Operative roll depending on the army? In a GAR army, Captain Tarpals is an operative as he shouldn't be commanding clone troopers. In a Gungan army however, He would be the Commander.

This is exactly my thinking.

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

Me too.

I've seen too many other game-systems do something like this and it ends up leading to Over/Under power gaming. If there can be a themed army (Wookiees or Gungans) let them exist within the confines of the rules and that be a choice of the gamer not the rules-set.

I'd love more options, but keep those options open, don't restrict them

A wookie army would be great! I think I've been misunderstood. I don't mean to say that there would be a GAR unit with restrictions. I mean to say that there would be a Wookie army, BUT some of the wookie units could be taken in GAR or Rebellion lists.

I have not played Infinity so I cannot speak to that. However, I do know that it is a game that deals with a relatively low model count, very long range weapons and high lethality. Therefore I think it is somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison. The problem with subfactions based on theme in legion is that each faction has a relatively small unit pool. If things were to change down the road and we have Gungan infantry, support, operatives, commanders, special forces, heavies and multiple options within each of those categories then sure, make it its own faction. But why bother making it a subfaction if you are just going to rope off basic corps units only on the basis of theme? If it is a game design decision then sure, divide things in a way that prevents OP lists, but that is just not how this game has been designed from the beginning.

4 minutes ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

I have not played Infinity so I cannot speak to that. However, I do know that it is a game that deals with a relatively low model count, very long range weapons and high lethality. Therefore I think it is somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison. The problem with subfactions based on theme in legion is that each faction has a relatively small unit pool. If things were to change down the road and we have Gungan infantry, support, operatives, commanders, special forces, heavies and multiple options within each of those categories then sure, make it its own faction. But why bother making it a subfaction if you are just going to rope off basic corps units only on the basis of theme? If it is a game design decision then sure, divide things in a way that prevents OP lists, but that is just not how this game has been designed from the beginning.

But this game is designed that way, though. You need min. X core, you can have max. X Support. What I'm suggesting is less, "lock units behind a restriction" and more "make me a faction that is separate and distinct, but allow me to take that faction's support unit in another faction". Does that make sense? I feel like I'm just not explaining myself well, because I'm not talking about adding any restrictions to the game that aren't already there. I'm just suggesting cross-pollination, which will sell more models and increase choice. Maybe I should edit my OP. I think I did a bad job of explaining what I mean.

1 minute ago, Jester8908 said:

A wookie army would be great! I think I've been misunderstood. I don't mean to say that there would be a GAR unit with restrictions. I mean to say that there would be a Wookie army, BUT some of the wookie units could be taken in GAR or Rebellion lists.

Well that is a completely different story. That's not a subfaction at all and in fact already exists in game albeit only in the form of 3P0/R2 who can be taken in both Rebel Alliance and GAR. Also, when it comes down to it, you can already do that by choosing to include or not include units in your list. There is no reason to codify it. If it reaches the point where there are enough wookies to build an entire force out of them, then I guess you can just make them a full fledged faction. I hope that doesn't happen though. Part of what makes Star Wars cool (at least prior to the prequel trilogy) is the ancient, cosmopolitan feel of the universe. In the first movies, you don't get the sense of racially distinct worlds or cultures. You see all sorts of aliens and humans mingling together and interacting. I remember when they first showed off the core set and people were upset that there were Duros in the basic squads. There was this weird idea that the Rebel Alliance would racially segregate squads or something. Anyways, long story short, Legion wasnt built for subfactions from the start and adding a subfaction system in now just seems like a bad idea when the game really needs more full factions.

2 minutes ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

Well that is a completely different story. That's not a subfaction at all and in fact already exists in game albeit only in the form of 3P0/R2 who can be taken in both Rebel Alliance and GAR. Also, when it comes down to it, you can already do that by choosing to include or not include units in your list. There is no reason to codify it. If it reaches the point where there are enough wookies to build an entire force out of them, then I guess you can just make them a full fledged faction. I hope that doesn't happen though. Part of what makes Star Wars cool (at least prior to the prequel trilogy) is the ancient, cosmopolitan feel of the universe. In the first movies, you don't get the sense of racially distinct worlds or cultures. You see all sorts of aliens and humans mingling together and interacting. I remember when they first showed off the core set and people were upset that there were Duros in the basic squads. There was this weird idea that the Rebel Alliance would racially segregate squads or something. Anyways, long story short, Legion wasnt built for subfactions from the start and adding a subfaction system in now just seems like a bad idea when the game really needs more full factions.

You are absolutely right. I went back and read my post, and saw my mistake. I specifically stated that you would be restricted in the number of Gungans you could take BECAUSE THEY WERE GUNGAN. Sorry for the confusion, I am a fool! Haha. I meant more like, here's a whole faction and oh by the way their corps units can be played in two other faction lists. That way the individual units could be released by themselves, and players of two existing factions would buy them, along with anybody looking forward to the eventual "all-Gungan"(for example) faction. I do get what you mean though, I do want to see racially diverse armies on the table. However, many Wookies excites me. I'm torn! Haha

Ah ok! Well that is just fine in my opinion. I think dual or even triple faction units could mix things up in an interesting way.

There is nothing wrong with adding new units to current factions. They would not need to be subfactions. Just add the units and folks can make their own subfaction lists if they so desire. Just add enough units to make it possible for them to do so.

38 minutes ago, EVIL INC said:

There is nothing wrong with adding new units to current factions. They would not need to be subfactions. Just add the units and folks can make their own subfaction lists if they so desire. Just add enough units to make it possible for them to do so.

This. If all Gungans are part of the Republic, there is no reason someone can't field an entire Gungan army.

This is my plans for my Republic Army. I will have clones and Jedi (well, and a couple of droids that frequently worked with them). Anything else for my Republic Army will be a pass.

I think the solution is relatively easy.

Create a new Keyword(s) for the species/planet you want to add.

Something like:

Republic Ally: Gungan- Units with the Republic Ally keyword may be added to Republic faction armies using normal rank restrictions but cannot be added to an army that includes another Republic Ally force.

This let's people mix their allies with clones as they see fit but also prevents odd/janky combos and balancing issues. It's also quite thematic to mix clones with a force based on planet or species... (for instance, this keyword could say Naboo instead of Gungan and it could include Naboo security forces as well)...


What's even better, is FFG could release a generic ally corps/specialist pack that came with generic bodies and customization options for the heads... (for instance, they could include Twilek, Duros, Gran, Zabrak, Rodian) and a specific ally card for each species/system.


Similar goes for the Separatists too.

The gungans could be in normal Republic lists. They could be A: special forces, or B: just have them in their normal corps spot.

You then take a gungan commander.
A: make the gungans in special forces switch to being corps, and the clones in corps switch to being special forces.
OR
B: the gungan commander makes corps gungans a bit more powerful, with some sort of added special rules or stats.

I also like the idea of mini factions. Mini factions are just like normal factions, but they only contain a small number of unit options:

1-2 commanders
1-2 ops
1 spec
1 corps
1 support
1 heavy

etc

But to be fair I think scum and villainy, or maybe a different name, could carry a lot of these subfaction ideas.

2 hours ago, lologrelol said:

The gungans could be in normal Republic lists. They could be A: special forces, or B: just have them in their normal corps spot.

You then take a gungan commander.
A: make the gungans in special forces switch to being corps, and the clones in corps switch to being special forces.
OR
B: the gungan commander makes corps gungans a bit more powerful, with some sort of added special rules or stats.

I also like the idea of mini factions. Mini factions are just like normal factions, but they only contain a small number of unit options:

1-2 commanders
1-2 ops
1 spec
1 corps
1 support
1 heavy

etc

But to be fair I think scum and villainy, or maybe a different name, could carry a lot of these subfaction ideas.

See, I understand where everyone else is coming from, but I like this idea too much to be 100% satisfied with just adding units to the existing factions and letting people sort it out on their own. I'd really like to see a variety of minor factions that are distinct from the main factions, but I also want the ability to "ally in" those minor factions.

To do a themed list, you need a corps, commander, and something else.

I'd say to do a faction that's actually intended for something beyond diehard fans and interesting side collections and the like, you need exactly double that. Ie, two corps, two commanders, and two something elses. So for example when rebels had Luke, Leia, Rebel Troopers, Fleet Troopers, AT-RT's and T-47's that was a real faction.

Pretty much anything in Star Wars can have a corps, a commander, and at least heavy or support or special forces. For example Ewoks, Bespin forces, Naboo Security, Resistance, Jawas and Tusken Raiders could each do that easily. Of the above, only Ewoks could easily double that with convincing stuff.

To make a whole faction you could easily make a "private security" army (ie, Hutt cartel thugs) First (second) Order, or *shudder* Gungan Army.

The question is not what could realistically be added. The question is the lifespan of Legion. Eventually they'll need to tap more and more springs to fill the trough. As long as they can keep things running on 4 factions that's a safer bet, for them, from a game balance and marketing perspective.

3 hours ago, EVIL INC said:

There is nothing wrong with adding new units to current factions. They would not need to be subfactions. Just add the units and folks can make their own subfaction lists if they so desire. Just add enough units to make it possible for them to do so.

The problem I see with this plan is that it is difficult to make every unit unique and keep all possible combinations balanced. Through the use of subfactions, you can make distinct units that can't be paired with one another.

3 minutes ago, Jester8908 said:

The problem I see with this plan is that it is difficult to make every unit unique

Then don't make every unit statistically unique. Balance and variety of models are more important than getting high off algebra.

2 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Then don't make every unit statistically unique. Balance and variety of models are more important than getting high off algebra.

Well, I agree, I just meant that Geonosian Support and Gungan Support should seem very different to one another. However, if you start designing these units to seem very different from one another, you'll end up making broken combos far more frequently than if you were to organize them into separate factions. And if they don't seem very different from one another, then you just have alt sculpts mostly.

11 minutes ago, Jester8908 said:

Well, I agree, I just meant that Geonosian Support and Gungan Support should seem very different to one another. However, if you start designing these units to seem very different from one another, you'll end up making broken combos far more frequently than if you were to organize them into separate factions. And if they don't seem very different from one another, then you just have alt sculpts mostly.

In that case yes. But there's no reason that say, Naboo security can't (or shouldn't in my opinion) basically be the same thing as Rebel Fleet Troopers or something.

I think scum and villainy would round out the factions nicely, and offer the opportunity for the less mainstream factions/unit types to exist.