2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Huh. Guess I missed that. I wonder what exactly those are? I mean, the name is kinda straight forward, but there is probably more to it than that. Not sure of the context, but I wonder if it was more a matter of where the clan was (i.e. the covert was in a city of gladiatorial arenas for whatever reason) at the time rather than a standard custom... MORE INFO!

Season 2 seems like a good place to explore what a Foundling goes through, what with the Child being one now, so I could see them expounding on it, definitely.

9 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Season 2 seems like a good place to explore what a Foundling goes through, what with the Child being one now, so I could see them expounding on it, definitely.

Or you could just go watch 300😉

55 minutes ago, VadersMarchKazoo said:

Or you could just go watch 300😉

This! Is! Mandalore!

40 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Like I said, I can go on about this for a while, but I would rather not. I'm tired of arguing about TLJ.

Look, you're the one that brought TLJ up in the first place when you quoted it...

Just now, micheldebruyn said:

Look, you're the one that brought TLJ up in the first place when you quoted it...

Actually, I was responding to someone who was comparing The Mandalorian to TLJ, so I was responding directly to his point and staying on topic.

12 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Actually, I was responding to someone who was comparing The Mandalorian to TLJ, so I was responding directly to his point and staying on topic.

My bad. Forgot this was a sensitive issue:) I just meant that the Mandalorian writers are doing a good job moving beyond the OT without the controversy that TLJ led to. That's it.

1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, and we know Mandos have something called the "Fighting Pits" that they raised their children/Foundlings in

I remembered the line differently so I checked. The line is "I was raised in the Fighting Corp" (verified by Disney +'s CC) which has slightly different connotations than fighting pits.

5 hours ago, VadersMarchKazoo said:

In cannon? I'm not arguing but I haven't seen "Mando is a creed not a race" before this show (again in cannon). For example in both the Clone Wars and Rebels pretty much every Mando is of medium complexion and seems to have come from Mandalore or one of it's moons. I don't recall ever seeing an alien Mando. I certainly don't remember them inviting others into the creed.

Then there's the whole Jango Fett controversy. In the Clone Wars, Duchess Satine makes a point that he's not even Mandalorian and she "doesn't know how he managed to get the armor".

Anyways, maybe legends has more on this but I don't trust those as a source and I'm not sure what else you're referencing. Not arguing, just not clear.

4 hours ago, VadersMarchKazoo said:

Cool. I see where you're coming from. I don't put much weight on anything until it is added to cannon. I look at the whole legends thing as apocryphal. They are a set of stories that float around the universe, many of which are conflicting, and then we find out which are the most true once they are told in cannon. I do agree that Filoni and others at Lucas Story Group seem to bring more and more legends into cannon as time passes. Good insight though, thanks.

As far as the Jango thing, I'm just pointing out that what it means to be Mandalorian may be getting clarified, and so would Boba and Jango's relationship too. Basically, if they lived by the 'creed' they are presumably in but if not, then they're just dudes with Mando armor.

4 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, this is pretty much right.

I prefer to think of them as Mandalorians*, I liked their Legends story (only up to the Clone Wars, I don't care much about where Boba went from there in Legends).
As for Satine saying that they aren't Mandalorian, there are a variety of reasons for her to say that. She isn't even actually Mandalorian. She is a pacifist New Mandalorian, so she doesn't really have any leg to stand on in that debate anyway.

*With a caveat. I am referring in particular to their origin story, but I can certainly see an argument that they were, or became, Dar'Manda. That is, someone who has lost their Mandalorian heritage.

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Minor clarification: it was Almec, not Satine, who commented on Jango not being Mandalorian.

It’s possible (even more so now, with the information from this series) to make a reasonable case that Almec had political reasons to denounce Jango, and that he was wrong or lying. But, as I keep telling Tramp whenever he gets on one of his tirades about how Jango *must* be Mandalorian....

Filoni has gone on record as saying the line was included to establish Lucas’ intent that Jango (and by extension, Boba) isn’t Mandalorian. It’s been backed up by the story group. So, for better or for worse, right now the people who get to make those decisions have decided that Jango isn’t Mandalorian.

Might they reverse that decision, using this same sort of logic (“Almec was attempting to distance Mandalore from Jango.”)? Sure. Until and unless they do, though, he’s a non-Mando dude with Mando armor trading on Mando reputation.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Whoops! And they didn't both comment? Hmm... I guess I just got my wires crossed between her denouncing Death Watch and him distancing Mandalore from Jango. My bad.

@Nytwyng is correct here. It was Almec alone who said Jango wasn't a Mandalorian.

17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@Nytwyng is correct here. It was Almec alone who said Jango wasn't a Mandalorian.

And, with all things canon, statements from characters on screen must be evaluated and interpreted though the subjective lens of the character themselves. Almec could simply be expressing a less inclusive or more hidebound traditionalist view that not all his fellow Mandalorians (including some traditionalist-minded ones) share. Some Mandalorians may be more attached to the idea of an ethnically-rooted creed tightly bound up with its people than others are.

For instance, in Orthodox circles in Israel today their is a strident, and sometimes violent, disagreement between ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox Jews over the status of Orthodox converts whose conversions were performed abroad. There are also some sects like the Syrian Jewish diaspora who recognize other Orthodox rabbis' conversions, but will never perform one themselves. This is to say nothing of disagreements between orthodox, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, etc.

To that end. just because some Mandalorian clan says "he's one of us" doesn't mean another clan will automatically accept it. Most probably will, but the circumstances and status of the clan making the claim matter. The opposite is also true, just because one clan says "we don't accept that guy as Mandalorian" doesn't mean any of the other clans necessarily feel the same way. Taken in of itself, Almec's statement is just one Mandalorian's opinion.

1 minute ago, Vondy said:

And, with all things canon, statements from characters on screen must be evaluated and interpreted though the subjective lens of the character themselves. Almec could simply be expressing a less inclusive or more hidebound traditionalist view that not all his fellow Mandalorians (including some traditionalist-minded ones) share. Some Mandalorians may be more attached to the idea of an ethnically-rooted creed tightly bound up with its people than others are. For instance, in Orthodox circles in Israel today their is a strident, and sometimes violent, disagreement between ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox Jews over the status of Orthodox converts whose conversions were performed abroad. There are also some sects like the Syrian Jewish diaspora who recognize other Orthodox rabbis' conversions, but will never perform one themselves. This is to say nothing of disagreements between orthodox, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, etc. To that end. just because some Mandalorian clan says "he's one of us" doesn't mean another clan will automatically accept it. The opposite is also true, just because one clan says "we don't accept that guy as Mandalorian" doesn't mean any of the other clans necessarily agree. Taken in of itself, Almec's statement is just one Mandalorian's opinion.

Exactly.

9 minutes ago, Vondy said:

And, with all things canon, statements from characters on screen must be evaluated and interpreted though the subjective lens of the character themselves. Almec could simply be expressing a less inclusive or more hidebound traditionalist view that not all his fellow Mandalorians (including some traditionalist-minded ones) share. Some Mandalorians may be more attached to the idea of an ethnically-rooted creed tightly bound up with its people than others are.

For instance, in Orthodox circles in Israel today their is a strident, and sometimes violent, disagreement between ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox Jews over the status of Orthodox converts whose conversions were performed abroad. There are also some sects like the Syrian Jewish diaspora who recognize other Orthodox rabbis' conversions, but will never perform one themselves. This is to say nothing of disagreements between orthodox, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, etc.

To that end. just because some Mandalorian clan says "he's one of us" doesn't mean another clan will automatically accept it. Most probably will, but the circumstances and status of the clan making the claim matter. The opposite is also true, just because one clan says "we don't accept that guy as Mandalorian" doesn't mean any of the other clans necessarily feel the same way. Taken in of itself, Almec's statement is just one Mandalorian's opinion.

Yes, he could be.

Meanwhile, we also have the benefit of on-the-record statements about the reason the line was included and the current status of Jango-as-Mandalorian made by the people who get to determine these things.

Until such time as those same people say otherwise, that status is...he isn’t.

47 minutes ago, Aluminium Falcon said:

I remembered the line differently so I checked. The line is "I was raised in the Fighting Corp" (verified by Disney +'s CC) which has slightly different connotations than fighting pits.

Thanks for the check! I dunno why I thought "pits" and I watched it twice. Maybe because we watched Coco last night and there's a big pit in it, and it was fresh in my head.

Loved it, and loved that my wife who is a casual SW fan got as excited to watch each new episode when it was released.

Thank goodness for quality SW content like that the majority of the fan base can rally behind instead of more poorly planned out and divisive content like 2/3 of the recent poorly mapped out 'trilogy'.

My great fear for this franchise is the folks in charge feeling like it needs a reboot. If future projects can avoid the 'woke' trap and just continue on with quality world building and interesting characters, relationships, and conflicts then there is hope for the franchise to continue without hitting a reset button.

23 minutes ago, sixsevenfour said:

Loved it, and loved that my wife who is a casual SW fan got as excited to watch each new episode when it was released.

Thank goodness for quality SW content like that the majority of the fan base can rally behind instead of more poorly planned out and divisive content like 2/3 of the recent poorly mapped out 'trilogy'.

My great fear for this franchise is the folks in charge feeling like it needs a reboot. If future projects can avoid the 'woke' trap and just continue on with quality world building and interesting characters, relationships, and conflicts then there is hope for the franchise to continue without hitting a reset button.

I'm exactly sure what a 'woke' trap is, but I agree with this 100%. My wife loved Mando, she is iffy about Rise of Sky.

Quality world building, interesting characters, etc. hits the nail on the head.

9 minutes ago, Shaheed the Gand said:

I'm exactly sure what a 'woke' trap is, but I agree with this 100%. My wife loved Mando, she is iffy about Rise of Sky.

Quality world building, interesting characters, etc. hits the nail on the head.

Woke

And a "'woke' trap" is?...

Having no straight white men leads in the series? There is a Latino man, a white woman, a black man, a Maori robot, a short pig alien and a green puppet.

7 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The Last Jedi felt very meta, and I disagree that the writer always disagrees with stuff he has the villain say. An example of that would be the Incredibles movie.

This is a good example for supporting your argument, as they're both wrong.

The Incredibles is not an objectivist film, and Brad Bird is not an objectivist.

https://www.vulture.com/2018/06/what-do-objectivist-ayn-rand-fans-think-of-the-incredibles.html

You might need to reassess your analysis and interpretation and pay a little more attention to detail when trying to suss out what the film is saying, or else you might just end up with a faulty assumption pf what you think it's saying.

I'm sorry if I seem a bit nitpicky, but if you're going to confidently throw out statements that a film is saying the opposite of what it seems to be saying, you're going to have to throw in some kind of analysis or argument to back that up.

That goes for TLJ as well.

3 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

And a "'woke' trap" is?...

Having no straight white men leads in the series? There is a Latino man, a white woman, a black man, a Maori robot, a short pig alien and a green puppet.

The woke trap would be putting the emphasis on current year politics, and forced token representation first over simply writing and producing a great story and then letting the diverse cast come together naturally as actual characters and not shallow check boxes for woke points. This didn't happen in the Mandalorian and it has paid off in the form of an awesome story that a lot of people really enjoyed.

I'm a little curious why you went directly to straight, white, and male like these are negative traits.

6 minutes ago, sixsevenfour said:

The woke trap would be putting the emphasis on current year politics, and forced token representation first over simply writing and producing a great story and then letting the diverse cast come together naturally as actual characters and not shallow check boxes for woke points. This didn't happen in the Mandalorian and it has paid off in the form of an awesome story that a lot of people really enjoyed.

I'm a little curious why you went directly to straight, white, and male like these are negative traits.

Who says the representation wasn't the first thing the makers of Mandalorian thought of? Jon Favreau was very, very vocal about hiring directors who were not white men. I would bet dollars to donuts Favreau wanted a big tough character that was a woman and then came up with a story for her. That doesn't change the "awesome story that a lot of people really enjoyed", it just means the creator and executive producer triggered his "'woke' trap" without you even knowing it.

If you think straight, white and male are negative traits, that is on you. I said nothing of the sort. However if someone is going to use 'woke' as a pejorative, let's not play all coy and demure, pretending those aren't the specific traits implied. It is beneath us all.

2 hours ago, sixsevenfour said:

The woke trap would be putting the emphasis on current year politics, and forced token representation first over simply writing and producing a great story and then letting the diverse cast come together naturally as actual characters and not shallow check boxes for woke points. This didn't happen in the Mandalorian and it has paid off in the form of an awesome story that a lot of people really enjoyed.

So basically “woke“ is now a derogatory statement used to quantify inclusivity that doesn’t line up with your tastes. Okay, noted.

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

So basically “woke“ is now a derogatory statement used to quantify inclusivity that doesn’t line up with your tastes. Okay, noted.

Well, it is upsetting when a movie or tv show forces it's political ideas on the audience, such as the notion that nazis are bad. 🙄

As usual, the people complaining about politics in media are complaining about the politics they don't agree with.

Is it time to pull out the Freddie Prinze Jr clip again?

10 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Is it time to pull out the Freddie Prinze Jr clip again?

It's always time for Freddie Prinze Jr, regardless of context.

FFS people, can we move the "woke" arguments and debates on TLJ and TRoS do another thread. At least the Jango Tango has more relevancy.

So, if they have a "Fighting Corp", might they have an "Armorer Corp", as well? The place where the artisans train? Naturally, I assume they all have combat training, but perhaps it gets more specialized as they age.