I keep looking at both versions of Vader and even with the points decrease and new command cards i still think he is one of the worst characters because of his speed and cost and because he gets no command slot.

I have minimal experience fielding him, but the operative with spur and new command cards make him enticing as his biggest weakness was his speed and the new 3 pip command card can get him into meelee much faster, I don't think anyone comes close to his meelee power until dooku comes out

6 minutes ago, TheHoosh said:

I have minimal experience fielding him, but the operative with spur and new command cards make him enticing as his biggest weakness was his speed and the new 3 pip command card can get him into meelee much faster, I don't think anyone comes close to his meelee power until dooku comes out

But then he costs 220 minimum

29 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

But then he costs 220 minimum

Just curious how are u getting to 220 points? I personally just run Vader with force reflexes and saber throw.

I have played a game where I proxied in the new operative vader and he worked great. He ended up going down in the 4th or 5th round but that whole time he was able to single handedly keep one side of the field locked down, while my forces pushed the objectives on the other side of the field and wiped my opponents army there.

4 minutes ago, lunitic501 said:

Just curious how are u getting to 220 points? I personally just run Vader with force reflexes and saber throw.

I have played a game where I proxied in the new operative vader and he worked great. He ended up going down in the 4th or 5th round but that whole time he was able to single handedly keep one side of the field locked down, while my forces pushed the objectives on the other side of the field and wiped my opponents army there.

Because he requires a 50 point officer

Vader is a monster with all of the new toys that he is getting and the points adjustment. The commander being air dropped onto the field by his 3 pip makes him a huge threat from round 1. And running the operative version gives you a very aggressive control piece that can hold down an entire flank singlehandedly. I always run reflexes and choke on the operative and routinely use choke every single round to deal 6 unblockable damage to my opponent's infantry throughout the game.

He still requires skill to play, but if you play him well he is a very good unit.

He is a great counter to the current imperial shoretrooper/mortar meta too. Use him like a tauntaun squad to tie up the opponent's gunline and protect him by staying in melee and just rip up squads using pirece 3.

1 hour ago, lunitic501 said:

Just curious how are u getting to 220 points? I personally just run Vader with force reflexes and saber throw.

I have played a game where I proxied in the new operative vader and he worked great. He ended up going down in the 4th or 5th round but that whole time he was able to single handedly keep one side of the field locked down, while my forces pushed the objectives on the other side of the field and wiped my opponents army there.

I like force push on him to be able to get into meelee easier, but it seems OP is determined for Vader to suck so not sure if there is really anything we can do to change their mind.

I think the new Vader will be worth the points. I look at the new clone units that cost 100 points a unit and operative Vader can cripple this in one turn. To make his points back you need him to live about 3 turns against most armies which seems doable.

Having a unit or two that your opponent as to plan and play around usually works out pretty well.

Half the times I’ve run Vader, he wasn’t in combat, but he controlled the board in a way few pieces can. Most people have a true fear of that unit (and rightly so), so they will make decisions and move their units to avoid him or setup to be ready for his approach. That give the Vader player a huge advantage. You now know where your opponents troops are going to be or how they will move. Vader controls the board in or out of combat, use it to your advantage.

I’ve watched players rush Vader forward into a gun line, much to Vader’s demise. But if Vader is held in cover, that gun line will not advance on his position. This can give you time to move other troops into position and when the other player’s focus has changed to the other troops, Vader has his opening.

At first I didn’t like Vader’s new one pip (I actually thought it was OP 🙄 ), but I think it’s a really good and necessary. It does give Vader the capability to move up quickly despite his 1 speed and Operative Vader’s Spur is soooo good, giving him about the same speed of any Jedi.

The reason Vader isn’t seeing table time now is because Shore Troopers/Mortars/Comms Relay are broken and just too good so they will see more (all) of the table time. The combo of those corps units and upgrade are just broken, from a level of token control that rivals CIS, to multiple Aims so that Crit fishing is viable. I’ve witnessed a 7 crit attack from Shore Troopers from 6 aim token. The defending player had a dodge and was in heavy cover which of course was useless. The Critical keyword isn’t broken in and of itself, but 4 dice on a range 4 heavy weapon is, and it only costs 2 points more than a 2 die Critical 1 rang 4 weapon. Tauntauns and Shores/Mortars/Comms Relay and even Aggressive Tactics needs tweaking (ie nerfing) badly. Sorry, that rant was a long time coming. I’m playing GAR now and both Rebels and Imperial have very broken troops, which may be fun for them, but makes it very hard for new factions that already would have a hard time. Again sorry for the rant, please ignore the last paragraph. 😥

9 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Half the times I’ve run Vader, he wasn’t in combat, but he controlled the board in a way few pieces can. Most people have a true fear of that unit (and rightly so), so they will make decisions and move their units to avoid him or setup to be ready for his approach. That give the Vader player a huge advantage. You now know where your opponents troops are going to be or how they will move. Vader controls the board in or out of combat, use it to your advantage.

I’ve watched players rush Vader forward into a gun line, much to Vader’s demise. But if Vader is held in cover, that gun line will not advance on his position. This can give you time to move other troops into position and when the other player’s focus has changed to the other troops, Vader has his opening.

At first I didn’t like Vader’s new one pip (I actually thought it was OP 🙄 ), but I think it’s a really good and necessary. It does give Vader the capability to move up quickly despite his 1 speed and Operative Vader’s Spur is soooo good, giving him about the same speed of any Jedi.

The reason Vader isn’t seeing table time now is because Shore Troopers/Mortars/Comms Relay are broken and just too good so they will see more (all) of the table time. The combo of those corps units and upgrade are just broken, from a level of token control that rivals CIS, to multiple Aims so that Crit fishing is viable. I’ve witnessed a 7 crit attack from Shore Troopers from 6 aim token. The defending player had a dodge and was in heavy cover which of course was useless. The Critical keyword isn’t broken in and of itself, but 4 dice on a range 4 heavy weapon is, and it only costs 2 points more than a 2 die Critical 1 rang 4 weapon. Tauntauns and Shores/Mortars/Comms Relay and even Aggressive Tactics needs tweaking (ie nerfing) badly. Sorry, that rant was a long time coming. I’m playing GAR now and both Rebels and Imperial have very broken troops, which may be fun for them, but makes it very hard for new factions that already would have a hard time. Again sorry for the rant, please ignore the last paragraph. 😥

I'm missing something, how did a unit of shoretrropers get 6 aim tokens? I get they could get one from an issued order, aim action, and spotter to get to 3, but I'm totally missing something

33 minutes ago, TheHoosh said:

I'm missing something, how did a unit of shoretrropers get 6 aim tokens? I get they could get one from an issued order, aim action, and spotter to get to 3, but I'm totally missing something

1 from issued order, 1 from Aim action, 1 from Veers, 1 from Offensive Push, and 2 from Coordinated Fire. The other two Shore units were similarly Aim heavy, and each had a Surge from Aggressive Tactics, just to make it really disgusting. Don’t get me wrong, if I was still playing Imperial, I’d totally be using Shores. 😁 But for the benefit of overall game health, they need to be nerfed (along with Tauntauns - I’m not trying to single out imperials). They cost the same as Phase 1 Clones, but have Coordinate with Emplacements, Aims every round (from Mortar with Comms Relay) and can Fire Support with a Mortar (three extra dice which with so many aims means more hits).

But back to Vader... 😁 .

What's coordinated fire? Or do you mean the emplacement they coordinated with had 2 aim tokens as well?

6 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

1 from issued order, 1 from Aim action, 1 from Veers, 1 from Offensive Push, and 2 from Coordinated Fire. The other two Shore units were similarly Aim heavy, and each had a Surge from Aggressive Tactics, just to make it really disgusting. Don’t get me wrong, if I was still playing Imperial, I’d totally be using Shores. 😁 But for the benefit of overall game health, they need to be nerfed (along with Tauntauns - I’m not trying to single out imperials). They cost the same as Phase 1 Clones, but have Coordinate with Emplacements, Aims every round (from Mortar with Comms Relay) and can Fire Support with a Mortar (three extra dice which with so many aims means more hits).

But back to Vader... 😁 .

but then how did they aim, move (to get aim from offensive push), and attack?

8 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

What's coordinated fire? Or do you mean the emplacement they coordinated with had 2 aim tokens as well?

1 hour ago, TheHoosh said:

but then how did they aim, move (to get aim from offensive push), and attack?

Good point, it may have just been 3 from the CF command card, I can’t remember, but they did have Offensive P on each of their 3 Shores and each shore ended up with a small mountain of aims. This was the very reason the CF command card was nerfed to begin with. And no, I don’t think the command card needs to be nerfed again, only Shores, their mortars and Comms Relay.

You have to know that they’re all OP when any time FFG puts the Critical keyword on a weapon it starts at around 30 points (heavy weapon only and red defence dice), but mortars are only 34 and have suppressive, 3 health and 2 courage. Also Shores, their heavy, a mortar and Comms Relay are cheaper than 2 DLT stormtroopers (125 vrs 136) and Stormtroopers are the meter stick for other units. For what these units are capable of, it’s not good. thats not to stop anyone’s fun, enjoy them while you have them, but they’re a negative play experience for others (yes... Tauntauns too).

Double post.

3 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

And no, I don’t think the command card needs to be nerfed again, only Shores, their mortars and Comms Relay

How would you envisage a Comms Relay nerf? Would you make it Exhaust?

14 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

How would you envisage a Comms Relay nerf? Would you make it Exhaust?

Maybe something as easy as a points increase and/or maybe a limit of one per army. Exhaust is also good, but I find it rather restrictive. Most things that exhaust tend to not get used. Look at every Ion weapon. No one uses them competitively and non-competitively it’s rare. But maybe Comms Relay is one of those cards the designers wish they hadn’t made?

21 hours ago, Jedirev said:

How would you envisage a Comms Relay nerf? Would you make it Exhaust?

Can't use relay to pass orders given through entourage or coordinate derp

Units can only be issued an order once per round.

6 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

Can't use relay to pass orders given through entourage or coordinate

Units can only be issued an order once per round.

They can already only be issued an order once per round.

He's fine. Other stuff in the Imperial army list might be better probabilities for the points cost. But Vader is still fine, he's not the old T-47. Assuming you refused to spend the $15 on a new Imperial commander and just used Vader from your starter set, he works.

Darkness Descends is an amazing card that allows your commander Vader to be the baddass on the battle field we all wanted. I think after his operative version is released, he will see a spike in play. I have a small breakdown found here if you are interested. TLDR; Vader is a fantastic centerpiece unit that destroys units left and right.

59 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Darkness Descends is an amazing card that allows your commander Vader to be the baddass on the battle field we all wanted. I think after his operative version is released, he will see a spike in play. I have a small breakdown found here if you are interested. TLDR; Vader is a fantastic centerpiece unit that destroys units left and right.

nice wright up but you should update point cost thank again for the work.

19 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

Can't use relay to pass orders given through entourage or coordinate

I would support this change. It always feels dirty when I equip my Death Troopers with relay and chain a bunch of free orders to my Shores with Krennic's entourage.

Vader was a solid choice even without the point reduction and the candy command card. Now is a beast, but imperial still cry... It's incredible.