One of the recent "Official Rulings" used Hera in an example regarding abilities that adjust the difficulty of maneuvers.

On examining it more closely today I couldn't help wondering: is the Hera example useful at all to this clarification? Keep in mind that Hera Syndulla & Seasoned Navigator both use "After you reveal..." timing. As such, they are clearly completely outside the Execute Maneuver step of activation and therefore the maneuvers available to them are unaffected by "constant effects". Sure, S.Nav eventually increases the difficulty of the selected maneuver so you can keep that as an example, but why is Hera used as the example pilot? It could have been any crew carrier and it would not have made a difference to the addressed topic of "when is a constant effect on maneuver difficulty used?"

What's frustrating to me is that the ruling doesn't even touch on any of the interactions between Hera and S.Nav (or any other effect). Here's the questions it raises along with what I think are the answers, but might still be debatable.

Q1. Does Hera changing a maneuver after S.Nav selects it mean the new maneuver is no longer increased in difficulty? example: S.Nav changes a white 2 turn to a blue 2 straight, then Hera changes that to a blue 1 straight. Since the dial does not show "that maneuver" selected by S.Nav does it still increase in difficulty?

A1. Hot take: Only "that maneuver" which was selected by S.Nav is being increased in difficulty and if it is further changed it is no longer "that maneuver." There's really two clear answers I can see here, but both require making assumptions. The RAI answer could be Yes , because "of course it does, the navigator was triggered so any following maneuver should increase in difficulty because that's fair" but I can't back this up with references, rules or otherwise. The RAW answer is No , because replacement effects in X-wing are pretty explicit and do not carry over attributes of the replaced effect unless specified to do so. Again no Rules Reference but there is a large amount of precedent to ignore a replaced maneuver difficulty in favor of the new one see R2-A6 , Cassian Andor(crew) , and Slave I title. The precedent is that "set your dial" means you get exactly what is printed right there. Abilities that do not set a new maneuver but execute a different maneuver are equally explicit such as Ved Foslo (keeps the same difficulty) and Inertial Dampers (is explicitly white).

Q2. Can Hera set her dial to another red maneuver after Seasoned Navigator sets a white maneuver and increases its difficulty?

A2. No . As per S.Nav's card the difficulty is only increased specifically while you execute the chosen maneuver. (It doesn't even need the ruling to make that clarification since it's right there on the card!)

Q3. Can Hera select a maneuver made blue/red by a constant effect (such R4 Astromech , Nien Nunb(crew) , Engine Damage (critical) , or something similar)?

A3. No. The main paragraph of the official ruling states constant effects "apply only during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that ship executes a maneuver." Therefore the color is not changed when Hera triggers "after you reveal"

Q4. If Leia (Rebel crew) reduces the difficulty of Hera's white maneuver, can I set it to another blue maneuver?

A4. No. ̶S̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶A̶3̶.̶ {Leia only reduces red maneuvers. thanks for the correction @meffo, i must have been thinking of Resistance Leia}

Q5. With the new definitions of Ability Requirements from the Official Rulings thread, can Hera be used after S.Nav if the initial maneuver was white?

A5. Yes. Hera does not rely on an "if statement" or weapon range/arc so it has no requirements. Furthermore, making a choice (like choosing a maneuver of the same color) is explicitly not a requirement.

All of these besides Q1/A1 look pretty clear cut. Any other interactions that should be covered? Or similar to Hera that should be examined?

So I think the ideal maneuver for Hera-gator is a red 1-hard turn. If you want to move out fast you can Hera-set a 3-hard in either direction/4K which can be navigated over to a different bearing 3 or 4 straight (bonus points for Nien and navigating to a 3-bank since they cancel out and you get a white 3-bank) on the other hand if you want to continue ahead slower you can navigate first to a blue 1-straight then Hera-set to one of the other blue maneuvers (with my reading of the rules the Hera's maneuver even stays a blue, but I know that could be debatable).

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

Q1. Does Hera changing a maneuver after S.Nav selects it mean the new maneuver is no longer increased in difficulty? example: S.Nav changes a white 2 turn to a blue 2 straight, then Hera changes that to a blue 1 straight. Since the dial does not show "that maneuver" selected by S.Nav does it still increase in difficulty?

A1. Hot take: Only "that maneuver" which was selected by S.Nav is being increased in difficulty and if it is further changed it is no longer "that maneuver." There's really two clear answers I can see here, but both require making assumptions. The RAI answer could be Yes , because "of course it does, the navigator was triggered so any following maneuver should increase in difficulty because that's fair" but I can't back this up with references, rules or otherwise. The RAW answer is No , because replacement effects in X-wing are pretty explicit and do not carry over attributes of the replaced effect unless specified to do so. Again no Rules Reference but there is a large amount of precedent to ignore a replaced maneuver difficulty in favor of the new one see R2-A6 , Cassian Andor(crew) , and Slave I title. The precedent is that "set your dial" means you get exactly what is printed right there. Abilities that do not set a new maneuver but execute a different maneuver are equally explicit such as Ved Foslo (keeps the same difficulty) and Inertial Dampers (is explicitly white).

the new maneuver that you hera into is not increased in difficulty by seasoned navigator, no. it's not the same maneuver that you used navigator to select, so its difficulty is not increased by seasoned navigator's ability.

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

Q4. If Leia (Rebel crew) reduces the difficulty of Hera's white maneuver, can I set it to another blue maneuver?

A4. No. Same as A3.

actually, rebel leia has no effect what so ever on maneuvers that are not red.

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

Q5. With the new definitions of Ability Requirements from the Official Rulings thread, can Hera be used after S.Nav if the initial maneuver was white?

A5. Yes. Hera does not rely on an "if statement" or weapon range/arc so it has no requirements. Furthermore, making a choice (like choosing a maneuver of the same color) is explicitly not a requirement.

yes, as long as the maneuver you use seasoned navigator to select is blue specifically (navigator disallows choosing red maneuvers and hera needs a red or a blue for her ability to work). this is a bit iffy, though, since you technically didn't reveal a blue or red maneuver. but if the maneuver that you navigatored (that's a verb!) into is red or blue, that's now your revealed maneuver and hera should be able to use her ability to change it. the initial maneuver that was revealed is no longer relevant if you change it with navigator.

2 hours ago, meffo said:

actually, rebel leia has no effect what so ever on maneuvers that are not red.

Thanks. Of course I got it wrong with the one card I neglected to read 😜

Now I'm confused.

My understanding or perception is:

Hera can only really choose to use one of the two abilities at a time.

Hera in a VCX reveals a blue maneuver, she can then pick another blue maneuver. She can only pick a blue maneuver that is actually blue on her dial. Thus from/too 1 straight, 2 straight, 2 soft left, 2 soft right. Hera's ability does not get any other choices in this.

If she reveals a red maneuver she can pick from/too 1 Hard left or right, 3 Hard left or right, 4 K-turn. Hera's ability does not get any other choices in this.

Hera in VCX with Seasoned Navigator may reveal any maneuver and change it to any maneuver other than 1 Hard left or right, 3 Hard left or right, 4 K-turn.

If she reveals a blue and wants to choose one of her blue maneuvers she just doesn't put Seasoned Navigator in the queue at all.

If she reveals a red and wants to choose one of her red maneuvers she can't put Seasoned Navigator in the queue and can only use her own ability.

If she wants to go from a blue to a white or a white to a blue she uses Seasoned Navigator.

If she wants to go from a red to a white or a blue she uses Seasoned Navigator.

The presence of any ability that changes the difficulty of a maneuver does not change any of the choices Hera can make to end up with her revealed maneuver. None of those change the difficulty of a maneuver abilities matter for things that care about the revealed maneuver.

When Hera comes to execute this maneuver she will then care about Seasoned Navigator's and any other abilities that change the difficulty of a maneuver and whether or not she has a stress token (though if she has a stress token you'll "care" before this.)

Really, should have also given Hera pilot the Hera crew ability.

@Frimmel - hera reveals a two hard, uses seasoned navigator to change it to a two bank, then her ability to set it to a straight one.

or hera reveals a hard one, uses seasoned navigator to change it to a straight one, then her ability to set it to a two bank.

you don't think that's legal? why? or if you do think it's legal, do you think seasoned navigator would increase the difficulty of the maneuver being executed in these cases? why or why not?

5 minutes ago, meffo said:

@Frimmel - hera reveals a two hard, uses seasoned navigator to change it to a two bank, then her ability to set it to a straight one.

or hera reveals a hard one, uses seasoned navigator to change it to a straight one, then her ability to set it to a two bank.

you don't think that's legal? why? or if you do think it's legal, do you think seasoned navigator would increase the difficulty of the maneuver being executed in these cases? why or why not?

I had not thought of these sequences when I made my post. So I am incorrect with this

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

Hera in VCX with Seasoned Navigator may reveal any maneuver and change it to any maneuver

I was slightly mis-reading the Navigator and ignoring "same speed."

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My first reaction is that Hera's ability can't go in the queue if she turns over a white. You have not met her trigger. So can not Navigator from 2 White Hard to one of the other 2 speed Blues then down to a one speed blue with Hera.

If she turns over a red Hera's ability goes into the queue to change to another red. If you change it to something else before then you've fizzled Hera's change. If you turn over a blue and change it to white before processing Hera then you've fizzled Hera's change.

I would accept turning over a 1 red as allowing the ability to go in the queue, then process Seasoned Navigator first and change to 1 blue then Hera to one of your two speed blues.

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Seasoned Navigator does not change the difficulty until you are done moving the dial around from whatever it was when you ended the planning phase. Hera and Seasoned Navigator move the dial around in the Reveal dial step resulting in a revealed maneuver. Then you move on to the execute maneuver step where difficulty gets changed.

One of two choices here:

If you do not execute the maneuver Seasoned Navigator allowed you to change to i.e. allowed you to make your revealed maneuver you do not increase the difficulty. i.e. Seasoned Navigator resolution first and also Hera done second.

If "that maneuver" on Seasoned Navigator is considered "revealed maneuver" then anytime you use him you'll go up a difficulty no matter whether or not he is first or last.

I lean to the first choice.

I have not been partial to any readings of these change difficulty of a maneuver effects that were not more restricted than practiced in either first or second edition. I do not feel they properly sorted this out at the beginning of 2nd Ed. after the confusion these things created in first. They then compounded the difficulties with their Cova/R4 stupidity and with not axing or re-wording the mechanics that care about revealed maneuvers. They got this all wrong and it is one of the things that has made the Ghost/VCX a bit of a mess particularly from trying to fly thematically with all the characters.

ok, @Frimmel , i think i get where you're coming from with that.

if you change your maneuver with seasoned navigator, that maneuver is the revealed maneuver, but not the maneuver you revealed during the reveal dial step of activation, thus you cannot trigger hera's ability off of it?

20 hours ago, meffo said:

22 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

A5. Yes. Hera does not rely on an "if statement" or weapon range/arc so it has no requirements. Furthermore, making a choice (like choosing a maneuver of the same color) is explicitly not a requirement.

All of these besides Q1/A1 look pretty clear cut. Any other interactions that should be covered? Or similar to Hera that should be examined?

yes, as long as the maneuver you use seasoned navigator to select is blue specifically (navigator disallows choosing red maneuvers and hera needs a red or a blue for her ability to work). this is a bit iffy, though, since you technically didn't reveal a blue or red maneuver. but if the maneuver that you navigatored (that's a verb!) into is red or blue, that's now your revealed maneuver and hera should be able to use her ability to change it. the initial maneuver that was revealed is no longer relevant if you change it with navigator.

i believe this is what you're not agreeing to - and i think i see why. that's why i think it's a bit iffy. could certainly use more clarification on this interaction. or lack of interaction, depending on how you interpret it.

7 minutes ago, meffo said:

if you change your maneuver with seasoned navigator, that maneuver is the revealed maneuver, but not the maneuver you revealed during the reveal dial step of activation, thus you cannot trigger hera's ability off of it?

That's where I'm coming from with that. You have a revealed maneuver as chosen in the planning phase. If this revealed maneuver (as chosen in planning) is not red or blue, Hera can not trigger. (But that's the "requirements" argument again.)

Seasoned Navigator can always go in as he has no restriction on the difficulty of the revealed maneuver and when resolves can act on what is then considered the revealed maneuver. But you're not going to want to use that ability on all change situations because you'll be subject to the increased difficulty penalty.

I think the only time you can possibly get two changes with either the VCX or Attack Shuttle Hera pilot and Seasoned Navigator is reveal from planning a 1 hard red -> navigator to a 1 blue -> Hera to a different blue.

20 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

That's where I'm coming from with that. You have a revealed maneuver as chosen in the planning phase. If this revealed maneuver (as chosen in planning) is not red or blue, Hera can not trigger. (But that's the "requirements" argument again.)

Seasoned Navigator can always go in as he has no restriction on the difficulty of the revealed maneuver and when resolves can act on what is then considered the revealed maneuver. But you're not going to want to use that ability on all change situations because you'll be subject to the increased difficulty penalty.

I think the only time you can possibly get two changes with either the VCX or Attack Shuttle Hera pilot and Seasoned Navigator is reveal from planning a 1 hard red -> navigator to a 1 blue -> Hera to a different blue.

ok, but that last sentence doesn't make sense unless you think you can reference a maneuver that you navigatored into with hera's ability.

if that's the only possible way you can see both abilities working, you're saying you'd need to start on a maneuver that hera could change, navigator to another maneuver that hera could change and then hera to a different maneuver that's the same colour as the navigatored maneuver? that kind of makes sense, but not completely. you think navigator would increase the difficulty of the maneuver you ended up on with hera's ability? (i'm guessing no, just asking to make sure)

my view is that this part of the rules reference (added when resistance got the transport and naboo starfighter, that come with a couple of cards that reference revealed maneuver) also makes hera refer to a revealed maneuver, rather than a maneuver you revealed.



it is still not clear and properly worded to make me very sure that hera and navigator is supposed to work like i interpret them to, but that's my line of reasoning. essentially, both have the same timing, so i think maybe hera would let you trigger off of any blue maneuver that you navigatored into, no matter which maneuver you initially revealed.

actually, that line of reasoning reminds me of another post in the official rulings thread that kind of supports your interpretation more than mine.

specifically, i'm thinking about this:

Quote

Most abilities are triggered, occurring only at a specified timing window (such as the "During the End Phase, do not remove up to 2 focus tokens" portion of Moldy Crow ). Triggered abilities are resolved via the ability queue.

Each triggered ability has the following parts:

• A timing (when the ability is added to the ability queue)
• An effect (what the ability does)

it's perfectly reasonable to assume that hera's ability would only trigger after you reveal a red or blue maneuver, since that's what her card says. what your revealed maneuver is wouldn't matter in that case, since your revealed maneuver can be changed at other timings than when you reveal your maneuver (such as with seasoned navigator).

if this is the case, i don't think you could use navigator and hera in combination at all, even in the 1 hard red -> navigator to a 1 blue -> Hera to a different blue that you pose as an example. in this interpretation, hera's pilot ability would specifically say you need to change to a maneuver that's the same colour as the one you revealed, not the same colour as your revealed maneuver that you navigatored into.

i guess the main reason i like my initial (iffy) interpretation best is it gets rid of the very annoying confusion arising between your revealed maneuver and the maneuver you revealed.

6 minutes ago, meffo said:

ok, but that last sentence doesn't make sense unless you think you can reference a maneuver that you navigatored into with hera's ability.

if that's the only possible way you can see both abilities working, you're saying you'd need to start on a maneuver that hera could change, navigator to another maneuver that hera could change and then hera to a different maneuver that's the same colour as the navigatored maneuver?

I said exactly that you have to start on a maneuver that Hera can change 1 hard red and navigator into a maneuver Hera can change a 1 Blue straight. Red or Blue Hera can go in the queue. Then when she resolves it needs to be red or blue or she can't change it because you can only go from blue to blue or red to red with Hera's ability.

If you flip a white over Hera can not go into the queue with Seasoned Navigator.

9 minutes ago, meffo said:

you think navigator would increase the difficulty of the maneuver you ended up on with hera's ability?

Not really. If navigator is first then Hera you do not change the difficulty when you get to executing. I just think there is room for "that maneuver" to end up as being the final revealed maneuver.

13 minutes ago, meffo said:

it's perfectly reasonable to assume that hera's ability would only trigger after you reveal a red or blue maneuver, since that's what her card says. what your revealed maneuver is wouldn't matter in that case, since your revealed maneuver can be changed at other timings than when you reveal your maneuver (such as with seasoned navigator).

if this is the case, i don't think you could use navigator and hera in combination at all, even in the 1 hard red -> navigator to a 1 blue -> Hera to a different blue that you pose as an example. in this interpretation, hera's pilot ability would specifically say you need to change to a maneuver that's the same colour as the one you revealed, not the same colour as your revealed maneuver that you navigatored into.

I do not particularly disagree with any of that. But I am strongly of the opinion that whatever gets flipped over from the planning phase needs to be red or blue or Hera can not trigger.

15 hours ago, meffo said:

my view is that this part of the rules reference (added when resistance got the transport and naboo starfighter, that come with a couple of cards that reference revealed maneuver) also makes hera refer to a revealed maneuver, rather than a maneuver you revealed.

Reading over this thread again I'd point out that Hera and Seasoned Navigator are happening during the ship's activation. Ric, Dinee, and Cova all look at "revealed maneuver" outside of activation.

But the key things for our discussion is not "revealed maneuver" but "Set your dial to" and "after you reveal." That's the key from the ruling in the first post:

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Note that abilities that alter a maneuver without causing the ship to select a new maneuver on its dial do not affect the ship's "revealed maneuver" as referenced by abilities such as Ric Olié's pilot ability.

We're following a red herring with anything talking about a "revealed maneuver" when determining what happens with Hera pilots and Seasoned Navigator and also to similar interactions involving Slave 1, Connix, R2-A6.

Activation has three steps per Rules Ref page 3. Reveal Dial, Execute Maneuver, and Perform Action. The problem is step 1 and 2 need to be changed.

Quote

Each ship activates by resolving the following steps in order:

1. Reveal Dial: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it faceup and then placing it next to its ship card.

2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.

3. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action.

The official ruling is that until we are "done" with "Reveal Dial" we do not have a "revealed maneuver." Hera pilots, Seasoned Navigator, et al occur "after your reveal." They do not trigger on what is determined to be the "revealed maneuver." Until you are done setting your dial and on to "Execute Maneuver" you do not have a "revealed maneuver."

Rules Reference needs to be changed to something more like

1. Reveal Dial: Reveal the ship's assigned dial by flipping it faceup and then placing it next to its ship card.

2. Execute Maneuver:The ship executes the revealed maneuver selected on the dial placed next to its ship card.

Then the "set your dial" effects of Hera pilots, Seas. Nav., Connix, Slave 1, and R2-A6 can be more easily seen as not acting on a "revealed maneuver." And Inertial Dampeners and Grappling Struts (Open) can also be more easily seen as not dealing with a "revealed maneuver." I think also that more clearly determines what difficulty level will be changed.

It also allows a ship to reveal a red maneuver while it has a stress token. The penalty isn't until the ship attempts to execute a red with a stress.

There are still probably some questions with the Struts interacting with the N-1s and Cova but isn't there a ruling for Hyena and Vulture specifying whether and what their "revealed maneuver" is?