41 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Not.... sure that's entirely true either.

The Asto decreased the difficulty of "your" maneuvers. But wingmates are fully executing the wingleaders speed, color and bearing maneuver. So i dont think R4, even on a wingmate, can affect the diffaculty of the maneuver they perform from the Wingleaders dial.

This also means, of course, if the wingmate has a damaged engines (for instance, taking a crit for the leader) it will not actually effect him while he is in formation.

I could be wrong, but thats how im reading it.

I feel like the only maneuver "you" can execute is "your" maneuver, regardless of whether it normally appears on your dial that way (or at all).

If Vader does a blue 1-bank, his TIE fighter wingmate executes a blue 1-bank also, even though it does not appear on its dial. That is the TIE's maneuver. If not, what else is it? The TIE has fully executed that maneuver. What other maneuver could it have executed?

Alternate reference: You use Inertial Dampeners. What is "your maneuver"?

On 11/18/2019 at 7:31 AM, emeraldbeacon said:

After the leader moves, though, everyone else slots into place, and is treated as if they executed the same maneuver on the leader's dial ... so in the E-Wing+R4 example, a wing leader that performs a hard-1 (red on dial, turned white by the droid) would be fine, but the wingmates would all gain stress from the maneuver. However, if the wingmates also had R4 Astromech, then it seems like they'd gain the benefit on that maneuver as well (since it would be considered "their maneuver" while they're moving).

I don't think this is true, either.

Before and after it moves, the wingmate is treated as having the same revealed dial as the wingleader, but WHILE it moves, it does not have a dial at all and does not actually execute a maneuver; it is moved and placed. Not only is there no 'Execute Maneuver' step for the R4 to apply to, there is also no 'Check Difficulty' step to add (or remove) stress. It is, however, treated as having fully executed a maneuver (note the past tense) even though it did not actually do so. Therefore, abilities that say 'after you fully execute' or 'after a ship fully executes' might still trigger off of a wingmate's movement.

To summarize, a wingmate should neither gain nor lose stress based off of the maneuver that its wing leader executes, but watch out for splitting as that could make everything come apart in a hurry.

double post

1 hour ago, lordvorkon said:

To summarize, a wingmate should neither gain nor lose stress based off of the maneuver that its wing leader executes, but watch out for splitting as that could make everything come apart in a hurry.

If that's true, then the leader is the only one capable of shedding stress gained through other means (debris, Phasma, etc.).

I can't find a flaw in your reading of the rule syntax (so, for example, a wingman can't set off a mine via a maneuver template), but mechanically I feel like that breaks down.

2 hours ago, Hatemonger said:

If that's true, then the leader is the only one capable of shedding stress gained through other means (debris, Phasma, etc.).

I can't find a flaw in your reading of the rule syntax (so, for example, a wingman can't set off a mine via a maneuver template), but mechanically I feel like that breaks down.

Right. For the record, I think that's what the rule syntax actually says, but having said that, I did play a couple games this afternoon and we decided that it was assinine to play it that way. My opponent argued that 'is treated as having executed' meant that wingmates should be treated as actually executing (including checking difficulty and applying any effects that modify said difficulty) the maneuver in question and the wing formation just ends up putting them in a non-standard end location.

I'd even agree that would be a sane way for the rule to be written, and that's what we ended up using on the basis that it made the game less frustrating and therefore more enjoyable. (We were playing the Atmospheric Entry mission, so stress was actually a pretty big deal.)

I came back to say almost the same thing, because we played the Atmospheric Entry mission last night as well!

Realistically, I think that's the only sane way to play it.

On 11/23/2019 at 10:25 PM, lordvorkon said:

Right. For the record, I think that's what the rule syntax actually says, but having said that, I did play a couple games this afternoon and we decided that it was assinine to play it that way. My opponent argued that 'is treated as having executed' meant that wingmates should be treated as actually executing (including checking difficulty and applying any effects that modify said difficulty) the maneuver in question and the wing formation just ends up putting them in a non-standard end location.

I'd even agree that would be a sane way for the rule to be written, and that's what we ended up using on the basis that it made the game less frustrating and therefore more enjoyable. (We were playing the Atmospheric Entry mission, so stress was actually a pretty big deal.)

This makes sense, tho id say any effects that modify have to be on each ship for it to affect itself (mod effects on the leader not propagating to the entire wing).

38 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

This makes sense, tho id say any effects that modify have to be on each ship for it to affect itself (mod effects on the leader not propagating to the entire wing).

Absolutely!

On 11/13/2019 at 6:25 PM, librarian101 said:

Free actions for the whole squad. very poor rules writing.

Yep, the more I play epic with the wings, the more broken the wing rules get. They should’ve just made it so that wing mates follow the leader ONLY after the wing leader performs a maneuver but before the leader gets to perform any actions. This prevents Vader from afterburner boosting his wing of ties that do not have the afterburner tech.

6 hours ago, pakirby said:

Yep, the more I play epic with the wings, the more broken the wing rules get. They should’ve just made it so that wing mates follow the leader ONLY after the wing leader performs a maneuver but before the leader gets to perform any actions. This prevents Vader from afterburner boosting his wing of ties that do not have the afterburner tech.

Then wings would not get to perform *any* positioning actions, even if all members have them in their bars. TIEs barrel rolling in formation is canonically shown in the films, and frankly is so cool that it offends my sense of Star Wars-ness to even consider denying it. 😤

On a slightly more serious note, I agree that obviously the wing rules could use a bit more clarity, and perhaps more examples to demonstrate their intent, as it seems likely there will be future instances where normal gameplay does not translate cleanly to wing formations.

On 11/23/2019 at 3:40 PM, lordvorkon said:

To summarize, a wingmate should neither gain nor lose stress based off of the maneuver that its wing leader executes, but watch out for splitting as that could make everything come apart in a hurry.

So a Wing Leader performing a red maneuver gives him stress, but the wing mates don't get the stress?

9 hours ago, bartdevuyst said:

So a Wing Leader performing a red maneuver gives him stress, but the wing mates don't get the stress?

um.. no.

Quote

After it is placed in formation, a wingmate is treated as having fully executed the maneuver on the wing leader’s dial. This includes the speed, color , and bearing of the wing leader’s maneuver

Meaning, red maneuvers will cause stress, and blue ones will clear it even for the wingmates. I think vorkon is kind of perverting the intent of whats written here. Otherwise, this rule about splitting wouldnt make sense.

Quote

The ship is stressed and its wing leader executes a red maneuver.

If the color of the maneuver did not matter for the wingmate, then the game wouldnt care of the wingmate is stressed on a red maneuver from the leader.