Let's have Vader and 5 Ties in a wing with the Agent of the Empire Command uprade.

Scenario 1: Vader does a 3 bank, then does Focus and Target Locks. Then all the TIE fighters slot into the wing tool and all is happy. Easy!

Scenario 2: Vader does a 3 bank, then hits Afterburners, then does a barrel roll. What happens? Do the TIE fighters also get to Afterburner?

Scenario 3: Vader does Supernatural Reflexes Barrel Roll and then does a 3 Tallon Roll (not on the TIE dial), and then does Afterburners. What happens to the TIE fighters?

So I THINK the close reading of the rules is:

1) The Wing Leader does whatever they want

2) "After a wing leader has activated, each of its wingmates activates in ascending order according to its ID number (left flank, right flank, rear support, left support, and right support). Each wingmate moves (see Moving Wingmates) and resolves its Perform Action step (see Wingmate Actions)."

3) "When a wingmate moves as part of its activation, its player uses a wing tool to place the ship into the same wing position within the formation relative to its wing leader."

So Vader can drag TIE/lns around doing things they couldn't normally do.

There are specific actions that CAN'T be duplicated by ships that can't do the actions: SLAM and Cloak.

1 hour ago, XPav said:

There are specific actions that CAN'T be duplicated by ships that can't do the actions: SLAM and Cloak.

• After a wing leader performs a (SLAM) action, each of its wingmates without (SLAM) on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting), and each of its wingmates with (SLAM) on its action bar gains a disarm token.

• After a wing leader performs a (CLOAK) action, each of its wingmates without (CLOAK) on its action bar splits from the wing (see Splitting).

I've looked all over and can't seem to find these rules. Where did you read them? These seem like extremely helpful provisions to be included in the rulebook.

21 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I've looked all over and can't seem to find these rules. Where did you read them? These seem like extremely helpful provisions to be included in the rulebook.

Page 6 of the epic rules reference under “Wing Leader Actions”

3 hours ago, XPav said:

Let's have Vader and 5 Ties in a wing with the Agent of the Empire Command uprade.

Scenario 1: Vader does a 3 bank, then does Focus and Target Locks. Then all the TIE fighters slot into the wing tool and all is happy. Easy!

Scenario 2: Vader does a 3 bank, then hits Afterburners, then does a barrel roll. What happens? Do the TIE fighters also get to Afterburner?

Scenario 3: Vader does Supernatural Reflexes Barrel Roll and then does a 3 Tallon Roll (not on the TIE dial), and then does Afterburners. What happens to the TIE fighters?

In Scenario 3, Vader probably fails the supernatural barrel roll, unless he's already lost one of his Flanking ships... but yeah, the Wing Leader can drag his buddy ships all over the place if he wants to. He could 3-talon, afterburners boost, then bring the whole team along with him. Sure, everyone's stressed and gets no actions, but that's a HUGE amount of displacement on most of those ships.

14 hours ago, XPav said:

So Vader can drag TIE/lns around doing things they couldn't normally do.

Yep. Pretty much. They will do maneuvers and reposition actions they cant normally do. Keep in mind tho, that the wingmates action bar is restricted while they are in formation, and Vader doing all that moving around will make it far easier for wingmates to hit stuff (rocks/ships). So its not like he can just fling an entire wing around wherever he wants with no consequence.

Ok so lets say the wing leader does a boost action after movement, all of the wingmates would also in effect get a free boost action as the leader drags them around and then they get to do an action of their own of the 5 listed. at no penalty. So the boost is a freeby.

32 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

Ok so lets say the wing leader does a boost action after movement, all of the wingmates would also in effect get a free boost action as the leader drags them around and then they get to do an action of their own of the 5 listed. at no penalty. So the boost is a freeby.

Provided the wingmates don't overlap something in the final position after the boost, yes.

Free actions for the whole squad. very poor rules writing.

2 hours ago, librarian101 said:

Free actions for the whole squad. very poor rules writing.

... or that's one of the intended benefits of the system?

2 hours ago, librarian101 said:

Free actions for the whole squad. very poor rules writing.

I think of it more like, while you gain action economy, damage mitigation, and the ability to keep many arcs on a single target, it comes at the cost of predictability: The entire wing will almost certainly be pointed the same way, so dodging that single multi-arc zone means you avoid TONS of shots against you.

6 hours ago, librarian101 said:

Free actions for the whole squad. very poor rules writing.

not free actions, but free repositioning and their regular action. not for the whole squad, but the whole squad except the wing leader, who'll be a sitting duck unless it has ways to perform more actions like vader. for a lot of potential wing leaders it can be done at the cost of gaining stress, like poe or a ship with autothrusters / refined gyrostabilzers / vectored thrusters. seems intentional, yes.

10 hours ago, librarian101 said:

Free actions for the whole squad. very poor rules writing.

Others have point out cost, but ill point out something else. Ease of use. Doing it that way is probably the least complicated way to deal with repositioning actions, without taking them away entirely, and keeping the Wing in formation. There is also the fact that, they kinda threw out the "that ship cant normally do this" with the use of the wing leaders maneuver dial.

There are some mechanics that dont make total sense thematically, but make total sense when you factor in complexity. Sure, more complex in this case might make more thematic sense, but would be a nightmare to try to deal with on the table.

OK I can see the choices they worked with. Would ships with premove repositioning such as Advanced Sensors or BB, BB-8 be handled in the same manner.

49 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

OK I can see the choices they worked with. Would ships with premove repositioning such as Advanced Sensors or BB, BB-8 be handled in the same manner.

Yes, but from what I've seen, the premove maneuver could still fail if it would bump a friendly ship in the wing, so broll are hard to drop, pre maneuver.

As to the extra action, well that literally why wing leader cards cost points, especially the mixed one that gives acces to certain extra move that the wing mate wouldn't be able to do.

I personally like it, it makes some of the PS1 ''Interceptor'' type ship better, like the PS1 silencer/ewing/defender/etc. better. A wing of PS1 Silencer, being led by Daredevil Blackout, could actually be a fun way to make those ship a little bit more worth it.

And I love the lore reasoning the game devs gave. Which boils down to the following inter Wing conversation:

Darth Vader:"Follow me."

*Vader's Tie Advanced X1 Boosts forward, moves forward in a speed 3 Talon Roll, boosts again by kicking in the Afterburners, then does a barrel roll*

Wingmate 3 (on private comm channel so Vader doesn't hear it): "He does know that our Ties can't do that, right?"

Wingmate 1 (on private comm channel): "Do you think he cares? We'd better hurry and catch up or we're dead."

"You learn pretty quick that when you serve under General Skywalker, you're ALWAYS on the offensive!"

Today, more as a mental exercise than a legitimate game tactic, we conceptualized what a 500-point wing would look like. We came up with this:

• Anakin Skywalker (122)
  • Supernatural Reflexes
  • R2 Astromech
  • Delta-7B
  • Veteran Wing Leader
• Obi-Wan Kenobi (76)
  • Foresight
  • R2 Astromech
  • Delta-7B
• Plo Koon (73)
  • Foresight
  • R2 Astromech
  • Delta-7B
• Mace Windu (83)
  • Foresight
  • R2 Astromech
  • Delta-7B
  • Dreadnaught Hunter
• Luminara Unduli (71)
  • Foresight
  • R2 Astromech
  • Delta-7B
• Ahsoka Tano (74)
  • Foresight
  • R2 Astromech
  • Delta-7B
• TOTAL: 499

That looks like a fairly sturdy wing... Not sure how effective it would be though.

I do love E-Wings add 2 for the veteran wing leader. 500 even.

E-wing - •Corran Horn - 97
•Corran Horn - Tenacious Investigator (66)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (6)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 66
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
R4 Astromech (2)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 79
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 79
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 85
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (6)

E-wing - •Gavin Darklighter - 92
•Gavin Darklighter - Bold Wingman (61)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (6)

Total: 498/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

8 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

I do love E-Wings add 2 for the veteran wing leader. 500 even.

E-wing - •Corran Horn - 97
•Corran Horn - Tenacious Investigator (66)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (6)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 66
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
R4 Astromech (2)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 79
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 79
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)

E-wing - Rogue Squadron Escort - 85
Rogue Squadron Escort - (54)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (6)

E-wing - •Gavin Darklighter - 92
•Gavin Darklighter - Bold Wingman (61)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
R4 Astromech (2)
Afterburners (6)

Total: 498/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

In fairness, only the wing leader needs to have the R4 & burners, if you want to save some points. Might even be enough for one more Proton Torpedo...

• Corran Horn, Crack Shot, Advanced Sensors, Proton Torps, R4 Astromech, Afterburners, Veteran Wing Leader (100)
• Gavin Darklighter, Fire Control System, Proton Torps, R3 Astro (80)
• Rogue Squadron Escort, Fire Control System, Proton Torps, R3 Astro, Shield Upgrade (80)
• Rogue Squadron Escort, Fire Control System, Proton Torps, R3 Astro, Shield Upgrade (80)
• Rogue Squadron Escort, Fire Control System, Proton Torps, R3 Astro, Shield Upgrade (80)
• Rogue Squadron Escort, Fire Control System, Proton Torps, R3 Astro, Shield Upgrade (80)

Planning for some point that the group will be split for some reason

On 11/15/2019 at 7:06 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

In fairness, only the wing leader needs to have the R4 & burners, if you want to save some points.

I don't think that's entirely true.

Quote

Before it moves, a wingmate is treated as revealing the same dial as the wing leader’s dial.

After it is placed in formation, a wingmate is treated as having fully executed the maneuver on the wing leader’s dial. This includes the speed, color, and bearing of the wing leader’s maneuver.

Given the recent rulings...

Quote

R4 Astromech and Damaged Engine (and other constant effects that alter the difficulty of a maneuver, such as Nien Nunb [Crew], L3-37's Programming, and Leia Organa [Rebel and Resistance, Crew]) apply only during the Execute Maneuver step and for effects that trigger after that ship executes a maneuver.

... I dont think R4 on the leader only, will effect the rest of the wing, as the wing is only looking at the leaders dial itself, which R4 isn't effecting.

That's an interesting observation, @Lyianx . Obviously, an R4 Astromech helps the leader's maneuver. After the leader moves, though, everyone else slots into place, and is treated as if they executed the same maneuver on the leader's dial ... so in the E-Wing+R4 example, a wing leader that performs a hard-1 (red on dial, turned white by the droid) would be fine, but the wingmates would all gain stress from the maneuver. However, if the wingmates also had R4 Astromech, then it seems like they'd gain the benefit on that maneuver as well (since it would be considered "their maneuver" while they're moving).

Nice catch!

6 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

However, if the wingmates also had R4 Astromech, then it seems like they'd gain the benefit on that maneuver as well (since it would be considered "their maneuver" while they're moving).

Not.... sure that's entirely true either.

The Asto decreased the difficulty of "your" maneuvers. But wingmates are fully executing the wingleaders speed, color and bearing maneuver. So i dont think R4, even on a wingmate, can affect the diffaculty of the maneuver they perform from the Wingleaders dial.

This also means, of course, if the wingmate has a damaged engines (for instance, taking a crit for the leader) it will not actually effect him while he is in formation.

I could be wrong, but thats how im reading it.