29 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Maybe.

Certainly there is more to the $40 than "here are new points," because I can't imagine that XWM players are even more miserly than the average wargamer.

All this considered, XWM players have all spent $50 per faction plus a $30 starter kit to upgrade just last year , so the comparison is a little weak at this point. Now, Epic players just shucked out $25 to get a half-upgrade , since the App is supposed to be a functional part of upgrading to 2.0.

To be fair, the point where consumers draw the line can be hard to tell at times. I used to work at a Staples Copy+Print Center and anything that a customer wants done within an hour gets a 30% express fee (since I had to drop everything else I was doing). B&W prints are about 12 cents per page, but 20 cents with the express fee. If somebody handed me a single sheet of paper, it's understood that they want it immediately, so I would just tell them it costs 20 cents since I had to charge express. For the most part, people were okay with the total cost until they saw that 30% came from an express fee.

I'm with FFG on this one. If you're still for some reason using the official app, you're just doing it wrong.

FFG is trying to tell all of you to get with the program and use the excellent 3rd party apps without explicitly putting it into writing.

8 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

I would believe they hired the wrong person/people to make the app in the first place. It definitely lacks features that you would expect it should have.

This is precisely what happened. FFG hired a shonky dev team who did an appalling job coding the app. On the FFG side, the design input seems to have been to make the app look like a rules PDF - which unfortunately is not at all a usable design for a mobile app. The dev team clearly didn't care about anything other than getting paid, so they haven't collaborated with FFG to make the design into something half decent. The reaulting app is so terrible that very few people actually use it.

Now, when it comes to Epic, they can either sink a bunch of money into an app that no one will use for a casual format, or they can just say "use the PDFs" and treat it like any other game in existence. Sure, the points values aren't printed on the cards, but they know there are perfectly usable third party apps that will keep the format afloat.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

I'm with FFG on this one. If you're still for some reason using the official app, you're just doing it wrong.

FFG is trying to tell all of you to get with the program and use the excellent 3rd party apps without explicitly putting it into writing.

Well, when Wave 6 fails to be a part of the app, I'll agree.

Until then, it's just the epic players getting ******.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, when Wave 6 fails to be a part of the app, I'll agree.

Until then, it's just the epic players getting ******.

Weren’t you complaining about the app being more confusing than PDFs or card points some months ago? Now the worst squad building app doesn’t support Epic and you’re complaining again?

25 minutes ago, XPav said:

Weren’t you complaining about the app being more confusing than PDFs or card points some months ago? Now the worst squad building app doesn’t support Epic and you’re complaining again?

Complaining about points, complaining about the app, complaining about complaining - welcome to the FFG forums

I criticize the official app for it's lack of features it really should have. When I saw you can track what expansions you bought in the app, logic dictates that this will let you filter out the ship cards and upgrades you don't have a copy of. But no, you have to still be going through your actual collection to determine what upgrades and pilot cards you have. I am very disappointed in the fact they apparently aren't going to add Epic format or huge ships to the app. Not everyone will know of the 3rd party squad builders or that you can download a PDF with the point costs and upgrade slots information. And some people who do know about the 3rd party apps will still refuse to use anything that isn't official.

At announcement FFG said

”An official X-Wing squad builder app / website will be implemented, bringing a new level of dynamic play to Organized Play and casual games alike. This X-Wing squad builder gives players an easy way to assemble their squadrons and manage their collection...” ( https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/5/1/x-wing-second-edition/ )

However, the app does not allow owners of huge ships to have a huge ship in their squadron. It was a fair assumption that the app would support Epic/huge ships. Following the poor support of Epic/huge ships in first edition it is to be expected that this is used as evidence FFG are going down the same route regardless of whether one uses the official app or not.

On the other hand I am finding both Epic Battles and the huge ship conversion kits to be well thought through and good value which makes it all the more confusing they are not supporting them in the app.

it's either they don't have a code monkey who can modify the app (and don't want to hire one), or they don't want even the suggestion that Huge ships will be allowed in Official events. My vote is on the first scenario though.

5 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

it's either they don't have a code monkey who can modify the app (and don't want to hire one), or they don't want even the suggestion that Huge ships will be allowed in Official events. My vote is on the first scenario though.

Most likely. Yes.
Where I work, the direction had the brilliant idea of hiring a third-party consulting company to develop our "app", instead of developing it by ourselves.
If the costs are any comparable, I bet a single update to the squadbuilder app costs more than the entire yearly salary of all the members of the main game development team together. These companies are like leeches.

5 hours ago, Faerie1979 said:

it's either they don't have a code monkey who can modify the app (and don't want to hire one), or they don't want even the suggestion that Huge ships will be allowed in Official events. My vote is on the first scenario though.

I wouldn't rule out the licensor having made their contributions to the app compounding the other errors in this endeavor. It is possibly in some way no single thing but the totality of it.

10 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I'm with FFG on this one. If you're still for some reason using the official app, you're just doing it wrong.

FFG is trying to tell all of you to get with the program and use the excellent 3rd party apps without explicitly putting it into writing.

That idea has some merit. However, it makes this entire endeavor a great deal worse as it doesn't let them off the hook for maintaining the app for not-Epic play. And since they need to maintain the app they shouldn't be let off the hook for not adding the huge ships and such. They don't just get to wash their hands of the whole thing because they don't want to bother and pay the freight.

Did they get bids from any of the guys doing the third party builders to make the app at the outset? I'd think those guys would be thrilled to have access to official art assets and information a bit ahead of everyone else and have something they're doing I think largely for their own amusement get a bit more black ink in their ledgers.

And how did they not point the developers they did hire at these third party apps for examples of how the thing should work?

There is a utter failure of leadership here and it is setting off my irony radar something fierce. They need to be called on the carpet to a far greater degree than is being done. But no one uses the app anyway so the customers can't be bothered either.

9 hours ago, XPav said:

Weren’t you complaining about the app being more confusing than PDFs or card points some months ago?

No. I have NEVER said I prefer PDFs. My previous main complaint is that the App doesn't print, so that I can make lists, print, and play.

Quote

Now the worst squad building app doesn’t support Epic and you’re complaining again?

It doesn't matter that it is the worst one. It is the OFFICIAL one.

And now, as an Epic Only Player, it's a NON-FUNCTIONAL one. Because now I can't even list-build with it.

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It doesn't matter that it is the worst one. It is the OFFICIAL one.

And now, as an Epic Only Player, it's a NON-FUNCTIONAL one.

I mean, to be fair, most people have said the official app has been pretty near non-functional since release.

It's a pretty interesting scenario evolving with the official app. Eventually, something will be said or done and I half expect the action will be the termination of the product. Clearly something went horrible wrong in development.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I mean, to be fair, most people have said the official app has been pretty near non-functional since release.

The app does let you build and save squads. It does work in that respect.

It is quite lacking in features though and has a questionable interface. I'm not particularly enthralled with any of the interfaces though so "default" to the official one since I much prefer the formatting it uses for sharing lists here on the forum.

3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

The app does let you build and save squads. It does work in that respect.

It is quite lacking in features though and has a questionable interface. I'm not particularly enthralled with any of the interfaces though so "default" to the official one since I much prefer the formatting it uses for sharing lists here on the forum.

Yes. It's "Functional" it's just:

14 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

pretty near non-functional

34 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

The app does let you build and save squads. It does work in that respect.

It is quite lacking in features though and has a questionable interface. I'm not particularly enthralled with any of the interfaces though so "default" to the official one since I much prefer the formatting it uses for sharing lists here on the forum.

The Android App even has some functionality so broken it makes the program freeze. If you ever try viewing the maneuver dial, it calls up a black screen which you can't close.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

No. I have NEVER said I prefer PDFs. My previous main complaint is that the App doesn't print, so that I can make lists, print, and play.

It doesn't matter that it is the worst one. It is the OFFICIAL one.

And now, as an Epic Only Player, it's a NON-FUNCTIONAL one. Because now I can't even list-build with it.

Why do you care about the official app? It's terrible. It's bad. Use YASB, it's great, is faster, and prints in a nice easy format. The only real reason people use the official app is because they have to for official FFG tourneys, and since there are no official Epic tourneys, IT DOES NOT MATTER.

You play epic on your table, why are you so hung up on being official.

13 minutes ago, XPav said:

Why do you care about the official app? It's terrible. It's bad. Use YASB, it's great, is faster, and prints in a nice easy format. The only real reason people use the official app is because they have to for official FFG tourneys, and since there are no official Epic tourneys, IT DOES NOT MATTER.

You play epic on your table, why are you so hung up on being official.

Because it's part of the product we are buying. At least that is what FFG told us when they started 2.0. The app was suppose to be part of the experience playing the game. I'm registering my purchased products on it, I'm building lists on it, I'm using it to create local games for our group, etc.

18 minutes ago, XPav said:

Why do you care about the official app? It's terrible. It's bad. Use YASB, it's great, is faster, and prints in a nice easy format. The only real reason people use the official app is because they have to for official FFG tourneys, and since there are no official Epic tourneys, IT DOES NOT MATTER.

You play epic on your table, why are you so hung up on being official.

Because YASB's user interface isn't as good on a touch screen as the official app. Nor can it be used when you don't have internet access. It doesn't really give you all the information you need either. Take the title cards for the CR-90 for example. Many of them modify your ship's starting/maximum energy, hull, and/or shields. YASB 2.0 doesn't mention those effects at all. But due to the way the official app handles things, IE by showing you the actual card, you would be able to see what effect the title card will have on your ship above and beyond the text. YASB 2.0 will not tell you that the title card Doldonna's Pride lowers your ship's shields by 2. To find that out you have to equip the card, then hover your mouse over the ship card. Did I mention that if you're using the Android or Apple app versions you can't hover a mouse over the drop down menu to see what effect the title had on your ship's shields?

13 minutes ago, XPav said:

You play epic on your table, why are you so hung up on being official.

The hang up for me here with omitting huge ships suggests that FFG doesn't give a toss. That they've written a check with the app that they can't cash and are stiffing us without apology.

I think I've mentioned this before but I saw a video with a designer previewing 2nd Edition and the game-blogger asked a question I was also asking at the same time. The designer replied, "What are you the X-wing forum?" And the tone was one of offense-is meant-but-you-can't-call-me-on-it-without-your-being-the-bad-guy. Whenever there is something going on with the game that I think is not customer-friendly I can't help but hear that exchange in my head.

I have been trying to support FFG by using the official app. Also, I don't eat, sleep, and breathe X-wing anymore, so I don't have all the cards memorized. Being able to scroll through all upgrade cards of a certain type that are legal for a given ship was really nice. YASB 2.0 has a drop down menu which shows you the name, but you have to select one then scroll to the bottom (on mobile) to see what it does.

And currently YASB doesn't include info on how the huge ship titles adjust energy, shields, or hull. Yes, it automatically calculates it for you, but on mobile you have to scroll up, tap on the ship, then scroll back down again.

Yes, YASB 2.0 is fantastic and highly functional. But to me, there were some things the official app did that I liked better, so I used it.

Yesterday I was over tired and this news really shook me. Today I'm better rested, and although I'm disappointed that I won't have all the huge ship upgrades and titles in the app, I'll happily use YASB 2.0.

(For what it's worth, I think they should scrap the app altogether. If they find a cheaper solution, they can even charge for it, pointing out that it's optional. I think the app is a stupid thing to lose money over, and FFG should walk away.)

38 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

The hang up for me here with omitting huge ships suggests that FFG doesn't give a toss. That they've written a check with the app that they can't cash and are stiffing us without apology.

Taa daa.

1 hour ago, XPav said:

You play epic on your table, why are you so hung up on being official.

So what's your hang up with attacking me specifically when I'm not the only one put off by this turn of events??

Especially since your first statement about my preferences was wrong.

And you are wrong about me again. I care a great deal about what is OFFICIAL, because it's what FFG and the entire player base hang their hat on. Officially, Epic just got snubbed by not being included in the Official app, regardless of my ability to end-around a solution.

At my table I can do as I will, but no matter what I'm doing my starting point is what's OFFICIAL.

18 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

(For what it's worth, I think they should scrap the app altogether. If they find a cheaper solution, they can even charge for it, pointing out that it's optional. I think the app is a stupid thing to lose money over, and FFG should walk away.)

It would be at best a questionable decision to leave a chief aspect of one of your flagship products in the hands of third parties not beholden to you and who you thus can not control. These third party squad-builder designers are volunteers and can walk away at any time and FFG has no ownership over their work.

Fly and play casual everyone it’s epic. The app is a mess, even if the cards were in there YASB or LBN would have been the superior option to use. The FFG app should have been what X Squad was, a UI that made use out of the card pictures well. Sadly X Squad isn’t maintained anymore. But if I was an FFG employee I would pay that designer to make it for them and replace the mess that they currently have. Heck they don’t even have to pay for it, it’s open source.

19 minutes ago, Quack Shot said:

Fly and play casual everyone it’s epic. The app is a mess, even if the cards were in there YASB or LBN would have been the superior option to use. The FFG app should have been what X Squad was, a UI that made use out of the card pictures well. Sadly X Squad isn’t maintained anymore. But if I was an FFG employee I would pay that designer to make it for them and replace the mess that they currently have. Heck they don’t even have to pay for it, it’s open source.

We've got a bunch of folks in this thread saying the YASB isn't always their best option. And it seems really poor form on our part to just shrug this off because the app isn't any good. That will only encourage them to give even less of a toss about it.