1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

Interesting comparing these results to the ones at Warfaire Weekend. Tauntauns dominate, the GAR is left far behind.

I'm thinking it is probably due to lack of options. Both GAR and the separatists placed very closely in this tournament (13 and 15 i believe). That isn't terrible, but nothing noteworthy. GAR has a really straight forward playstyle and it becomes predictable once you've been "got" by a fire supporting unit once or twice.

2 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Interesting comparing these results to the ones at Warfaire Weekend. Tauntauns dominate, the GAR is left far behind.

I'm thinking it is probably due to lack of options. Both GAR and the separatists placed very closely in this tournament (13 and 15 i believe). That isn't terrible, but nothing noteworthy. GAR has a really straight forward playstyle and it becomes predictable once you've been "got" by a fire supporting unit once or twice.

Two CIS, two Empire, and one Rebel in the top 5. Ouch for GAR, but maybe Rex and R2 can really give the faction the shot in the arm they need.

For CIS I do wonder if Dooku will change anything? At best it will give the faction three options instead of one: Grievous/Dooku with 6 B1s and two droidakars or both commanders with 6 B1s. I really hope duel commanders will be good, but 8 actvations seems like a no no so who knows there.

As for Rebels yikes. Looks like shoretroopers may have pushed the faction into no heavy weapons and into three sniper strike teams again. If Luke is top dog now then I will be afraid what happens when he gets 6 command cards to work with!

15 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Two CIS, two Empire, and one Rebel in the top 5. Ouch for GAR, but maybe Rex and R2 can really give the faction the shot in the arm they need.

For CIS I do wonder if Dooku will change anything? At best it will give the faction three options instead of one: Grievous/Dooku with 6 B1s and two droidakars or both commanders with 6 B1s. I really hope duel commanders will be good, but 8 actvations seems like a no no so who knows there.

As for Rebels yikes. Looks like shoretroopers may have pushed the faction into no heavy weapons and into three sniper strike teams again. If Luke is top dog now then I will be afraid what happens when he gets 6 command cards to work with!

Woah I must have missed that? Can you send me the link with that top 5?

The other problem is Shores do what clones do but much better. Instead of having to lost an action, spend an activation to obliterate a squad (Republic), shores just get 2-3 aims to increase their base fire power.

6 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

Woah I must have missed that? Can you send me the link with that top 5?

The other problem is Shores do what clones do but much better. Instead of having to lost an action, spend an activation to obliterate a squad (Republic), shores just get 2-3 aims to increase their base fire power.

https://tabletop.to/warfaire-weekend-star-wars-legion-grand-championship

Pretty sure that is it. Legion is strange in how divided it is between the forums, Facebook, and discord.

The results also give mixed feelings if FFG know what they are doing. CIS new weapons and GAR Rex/R2 point towards them predicting what some factions needed. But shoretroopers maybe make Rebel/Empire heavy weapons meh? And a stronger Luke may be scary if people are dropping the other twin.

Yeah, that's the right one.

I have little faith R2 or 3P0 will change things for the GAR. Rex, on the other hand, just might, but I'm still leery. Limited activations, no flexibility in list building or play style, low courage (outside of Obi), and expensive for what you are actually getting troopers are really debilitating. Not sure any of the new announced units will actually fix any of these. The GAR certainly can be good, and can wreck shop if the tables' set up favors them or if the dice go their way, but it'd be nice not to have to depend on that.

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

Yeah, that's the right one.

I have little faith R2 or 3P0 will change things for the GAR. Rex, on the other hand, just might, but I'm still leery. Limited activations, no flexibility in list building or play style, low courage (outside of Obi), and expensive for what you are actually getting troopers are really debilitating. Not sure any of the new announced units will actually fix any of these. The GAR certainly can be good, and can wreck shop if the tables' set up favors them or if the dice go their way, but it'd be nice not to have to depend on that.

I'm so surprised people keep talking about how R2 and 3P0 are going to strengthen GAR.

R2 adds nothing to CW lists and costs quite a lot. His command cards are very weak in game and don't let you set up Fire support (though they are very thematic). He is repair 4 which is great when we get larger vehicles, so he might be useful in the future. 3PO just makes the combination of them cost 50 points which at that point, competes with the cost of P1s.

Rex is interesting. I've played a few games with him and he provides a lot of support, but Range 2 is very limiting on him. The best part about BARCs is setting up fire support attacks at range 3 and Rex doesn't do that. His 1-pip is pretty meh, but his 2 and 3-pips are pretty solid. Now, if you can get into range 2, or if the opponent does, he really shines because he'll get 3 damage straight to the face.

I had a game a few weeks ago where he was able to shoot at Grivious and at a B2 squad. He was able to call in fire support and take out grivious! Wow. I think he was able to push 6 or 7 wounds through (after saving throws). Then the following turn, he took 4 wounds from an AAT and died.

A lot of my wins with GAR usually involve "gotcha" moments. My opponent underestimated the power of fire support and lost a critical unit in a single turn. If they play careful, they usually whittle my units down and I can't do much.

"Nerf everything since because I cant get good, everything is too hard for me to beat! I am obviously smarter than designers and have tried everything possible with flawless execution!"-People.

5 hours ago, Deadshane said:

"Nerf everything since because I cant get good, everything is too hard for me to beat! I am obviously smarter than designers and have tried everything possible with flawless execution!"-People.

Ah yes, that's clearly what this thread is talking about. 🙄

Considering that the designers were the ones that said that if they see 3 of one unit always stapled on to dominate lists, its a problem. I think we've reached that stage with Tauntauns, and I'm surprised it took that long.

On 11/11/2019 at 8:26 AM, Alpha17 said:

I have little faith R2 or 3P0 will change things for the GAR.

He already has, look at invader league, GAR lists were able to compete because of the dynamic duo and rex

23 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

R2 adds nothing to CW lists and costs quite a lot.

35 points for an 8 health mini with a free VP attached to him. yeah. he adds nothing and costs too much.

8 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

35 points for an 8 health mini with a free VP attached to him. yeah. he adds nothing and costs too much.

R2 has 4 health. 3PO adds another 2 for 15 points.

Not saying R2 is bad, if you plan on using a heavy I'd say he's an auto include just for his repair abilities. Currently the GAR doesn't have a worthwhile heavy to use him with as the TX-130 doesn't have enough spoiled to really use on TTS, and rebel armor is very hit and miss. I enjoy the landspeeder from time to time, but it isn't something I'd use competitively.

Just now, thepopemobile100 said:

R2 has 4 health. 3PO adds another 2 for 15 points.

Not saying R2 is bad, if you plan on using a heavy I'd say he's an auto include just for his repair abilities. Currently the GAR doesn't have a worthwhile heavy to use him with as the TX-130 doesn't have enough spoiled to really use on TTS, and rebel armor is very hit and miss. I enjoy the landspeeder from time to time, but it isn't something I'd use competitively.

R2 can heal himself 4 wounds using repair 2 capacity 2.

25 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

R2 can heal himself 4 wounds using repair 2 capacity 2.

He has to survive two rounds of shooting to do so, however, as he can only heal 2 per activation. It's not hard to push 4 wounds through a white save either, so I can easily see him being one shotted, especially in a world where Tauntauns get two free Crits from Ram and Pierce 2 is common on melee attacks. Granted, that means R2 is soaking up a hit from another unit, but I'm not sure that's as wonderful as it sounds when decent saves aren't super hard to do with red dice and surge tokens.

14 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

He has to survive two rounds of shooting to do so, however, as he can only heal 2 per activation. It's not hard to push 4 wounds through a white save either, so I can easily see him being one shotted, especially in a world where Tauntauns get two free Crits from Ram and Pierce 2 is common on melee attacks. Granted, that means R2 is soaking up a hit from another unit, but I'm not sure that's as wonderful as it sounds when decent saves aren't super hard to do with red dice and surge tokens.

I agree, that is the best way to deal with him is a 1 shot, but if played correctly he can survive pretty easily using cover and los blocking terrain. when played with other vehicles and creatures, he can also be displaced for free suppression meaning he cannot be attacked

2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Ah yes, that's clearly what this thread is talking about. 🙄

Considering that the designers were the ones that said that if they see 3 of one unit always stapled on to dominate lists, its a problem. I think we've reached that stage with Tauntauns, and I'm surprised it took that long.

Some people aren't capable of understanding the relevance of data. Don't blame him.

As I've said in previous threads, my years of playing competitive 40K has helped me identify the underpowered and overpowered units quite easily. I've been posting about how weak the T-47 and At-ST were since the very beginning (you can go back through my posts from 2018 and you'll see them). I made a post about tautauns and how oppressive they were a couple weeks back. Now, that we have data, the winning list has had several units of tauntauns in them. Give it another couple of months and the community will be fully caught up with the power level of them.

1 hour ago, Cleto0 said:

He already has, look at invader league, GAR lists were able to compete because of the dynamic duo and rex

35 points for an 8 health mini with a free VP attached to him. yeah. he adds nothing and costs too much.

Post the link to the Invader tournament that was won by a GAR list. I would like to see it.

I'm aware, that R2 can heal himself, but he isn't a free VP. You need to get him into the deployment zone and protect him. He's quite slow, and offers nothing else to your lists except if cost 3 clone trooper bodies.

If you plan on bringing a heavy, he may actually be viable since repair 4 is a 50% increase in HP, but bringing him for pure activation padding just doesn't seem right.

3 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

Some people aren't capable of understanding the relevance of data. Don't blame him.

As I've said in previous threads, my years of playing competitive 40K has helped me identify the underpowered and overpowered units quite easily. I've been posting about how weak the T-47 and At-ST were since the very beginning (you can go back through my posts from 2018 and you'll see them). I made a post about tautauns and how oppressive they were a couple weeks back. Now, that we have data, the winning list has had several units of tauntauns in them. Give it another couple of months and the community will be fully caught up with the power level of them.

Post the link to the Invader tournament that was won by a GAR list. I would like to see it.

I'm aware, that R2 can heal himself, but he isn't a free VP. You need to get him into the deployment zone and protect him. He's quite slow, and offers nothing else to your lists except if cost 3 clone trooper bodies.

If you plan on bringing a heavy, he may actually be viable since repair 4 is a 50% increase in HP, but bringing him for pure activation padding just doesn't seem right.

You are not the only one haha. literally everyone has been talking about tauntauns for months. Also shores. AT-ST is actually really good, so idk what you are talking about there... As far as Invader, it hasn't ended yet. I would be very surprised if a GAR list won because most are piloted by less strong players against very strong players with rebel and imperial lists. as for r2, he costs 9 more than 2 clones, which isnt bad. He isnt pure activation padding especially with C3PO because of token sharing which makes those aims and dodges super valuable. Never discount distract as an ability. I will include 3po in every clone list when he is out

7 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

You are not the only one haha. literally everyone has been talking about tauntauns for months. Also shores. AT-ST is actually really good, so idk what you are talking about there... As far as Invader, it hasn't ended yet. I would be very surprised if a GAR list won because most are piloted by less strong players against very strong players with rebel and imperial lists. as for r2, he costs 9 more than 2 clones, which isnt bad. He isnt pure activation padding especially with C3PO because of token sharing which makes those aims and dodges super valuable. Never discount distract as an ability. I will include 3po in every clone list when he is out

In the thread I made, majority of the community here argued that people just "don't know how to play against them." But I predicted that any unit that has ~6 activations will dominate.

I don't have experience with shores, but they look very strong on paper.

AT-ST is still pretty bad (look at the data).

10 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

As far as Invader, it hasn't ended yet. I would be very surprised if a GAR list won because most are piloted by less strong players against very strong players with rebel and imperial lists. as for r2, he costs 9 more than 2 clones, which isnt bad. He isnt pure activation padding especially with C3PO because of token sharing which makes those aims and dodges super valuable. Never discount distract as an ability. I will include 3po in every clone list when he is out

You have to leave C3P0 out of the argument when talking about the power level of R2 +. Because once you add C3P0 into the talk, you cost 50 points. Which is equivalent to a squad of clone troopers.

Right now, I would never take R2 + C3P0 over a unit of troopers.

37 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

You have to leave C3P0 out of the argument when talking about the power level of R2 +. Because once you add C3P0 into the talk, you cost 50 points. Which is equivalent to a squad of clone troopers.

Right now, I would never take R2 + C3P0 over a unit of troopers.

agreed, I wouldn't take it over a clone unit, but you don't need to make that call.. 6 corps and 3po fit in a list (https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/1gwdtijczdf,1fyikjbda00,1jh0,1jj,4gyhp000,2fz00jb00) with lots of space to play around with.

42 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

AT-ST is still pretty bad (look at the data).

what data? in the current meta, there has been 2 tournaments (WW, IL) where they have been taken, including, but not limited to the SW Legion World Champ, Luke Cook (http://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-4/season-4-single-elimination-lists)

Frankly the most dominant unit appears to be shoretroopers in the game right now. Reliably taken in most Imperial lists and multiple taken. Still there is a lot of list build variety and you gotta take 3 of some type of core unit. Rebels usually take 1 or 2 Tauntauns but I also see some decent variety here and they are in a good place right now. I was hoping to see some T47s on the battlefield as I feel the meta is a little ripe for it, but alas not to be.

I was surprised to see the CIS performing pretty well so far. I think the GAR will have problems right now with most Imperial lists, which we have an Imperial heavy meta. They don't seem to do well with suppression.

37 minutes ago, Uetur said:

I was hoping to see some T47s on the battlefield as I feel the meta is a little ripe for it, but alas not to be.

Maybe in the near future. At-RTs, Dewbacks, B2s, new tanks, and maybe objectives that favor big units may make them better options. Issue is that you really do not want to shoot at heavies and even with impact 3 killing armor is just too much work. Also units like shoretroopers just destroy the air speeder so yaaaaa.

7 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

agreed, I wouldn't take it over a clone unit, but you don't need to make that call.. 6 corps and 3po fit in a list (https://legion-hq.herokuapp.com/list/republic/1gwdtijczdf,1fyikjbda00,1jh0,1jj,4gyhp000,2fz00jb00) with lots of space to play around with.

what data? in the current meta, there has been 2 tournaments (WW, IL) where they have been taken, including, but not limited to the SW Legion World Champ, Luke Cook (http://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-4/season-4-single-elimination-lists)

You've maxed out your corps, and they have no other options that can fit (do to FFGs poor release schedule). That doesn't make them "viable". Just wait until GAR gets access to some special forces units, Also, it's important to mention that if you go down that route, your fire support is much weaker due to lack of surge -> hit.

The last two tournaments. AT-ST were brought, but failed to put up any results. We need more data, so it's to early to come to conclusions, but so far, it hasn't impressed. In the link you posted, only 2 people out of the top 15 brought it. We need to see how that tournament resolves.

56 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

The last two tournaments. AT-ST were brought, but failed to put up any results. We need more data, so it's to early to come to conclusions, but so far, it hasn't impressed. In the link you posted, only 2 people out of the top 15 brought it. We need to see how that tournament resolves.

One of them is the world champ who is currently 5-0 in that tournament As for "it's to early to come to conclusions", I believe you yourself said that "AT-ST is still pretty bad", so don't tell me it is too early.

"Also, it's important to mention that if you go down that route, your fire support is much weaker due to lack of surge -> hit."

I disagree. I still have rex if I need surge to crit on an attack and the BARC speeder is less useful imo then the list I have built. You could also go for a single rex commander with kenobi being traded for some BARCs if you feel like it, just not my thing.

22 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

I agree, that is the best way to deal with him is a 1 shot, but if played correctly he can survive pretty easily using cover and los blocking terrain. when played with other vehicles and creatures, he can also be displaced for free suppression meaning he cannot be attacked

Unless I'm missing something, they can still be engaged in melee, and that'll mean they're the only valid target for an attack, even with suppression. Probably a bit of a waste, but for the snow kangaroos it's a mere speed bump on their way to trampling everyone else.

And, if you're playing R2 "correctly" like that, chances are you'd not using him to buff your army, or go for the enemy deployment zone to get the VP, so are you really gaining anything by having him?

12 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

One of them is the world champ who is currently 5-0 in that tournament As for "it's to early to come to conclusions", I believe you yourself said that "AT-ST is still pretty bad", so don't tell me it is too early.

"Also, it's important to mention that if you go down that route, your fire support is much weaker due to lack of surge -> hit."

I disagree. I still have rex if I need surge to crit on an attack and the BARC speeder is less useful imo then the list I have built. You could also go for a single rex commander with kenobi being traded for some BARCs if you feel like it, just not my thing.

Except the tournament isn't over and their are 15 people who are 5-0. My claims are based off of two complete tournaments. You're making claims based off a tournament that isn't even complete, and they don't even have a top 8.....

Rex needs to be within 12" in order to give his surge -> hit. Barcs need 18" this is huge difference.

58 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

And, if you're playing R2 "correctly" like that, chances are you'd not using him to buff your army, or go for the enemy deployment zone to get the VP, so are you really gaining anything by having him?

r2 cannot do any "buffing" on his own, but if he is with 3po, why should he not be in heavy cover? I think you are exaggerating what I am saying, I am saying that you should keep him in heavy cover and move him with caution, not keep him in the back and chill out.

42 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

Except the tournament isn't over and their are 15 people who are 5-0. My claims are based off of two complete tournaments. You're making claims based off a tournament that isn't even complete, and they don't even have a top 8.....

Yeah? 15 because there were 144 people in the tournament and it goes to eliminations? Are you suggesting that these players are bad? I think that all the players in the elims are fine players. Top 8 you ask? It may not be decided on who will win overall in this tournament, but we have top 8 players We have Luke(1st in worlds) Kyle(2nd in worlds/winner of s3 IL) R1H4(Worlds contender) Daniel L(worlds contender) and many more strong players. Were you not the person who was just saying we cannot make claims off of anything because

14 hours ago, R3dReVenge said:

We need more data, so it's to early to come to conclusions

or na? I also need to see these tournaments and all the data behind them. don't tell me they are RPQs or something

42 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

Rex needs to be within 12" in order to give his surge -> hit. Barcs need 18" this is huge difference.

Yeah see, I disagree. Surge to hit marginally increases the damage of a DC-15 unit, they have critical 1. Sure, I bring z-6s, but I only fire support maybe 1 or 2 times a game. You are severely overestimating how good the BARC speeder is.

Or maybe you agree with me, but are trying to argue just to argue?

"I bet Rex will be a staple for Republic lists moving forward. He's so much better than the BAARC." - @R3dReVenge

31 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

r2 cannot do any "buffing" on his own, but if he is with 3po, why should he not be in heavy cover? I think you are exaggerating what I am saying, I am saying that you should keep him in heavy cover and move him with caution, not keep him in the back and chill out.

I possibly am, but I just want to point out that if you're planning your moves based on avoiding enemy fire it's not always going to work out for the other uses of the unit. The problem with units that are there for support is you have to plan their actions and moves based on how they help your other units, not what's good for them. I think that'll leave them vulnerable to getting attacked, and possibly lost. We'll see though, entirely possible I'm wrong.