As the game currently stands in its first year of having the Force in play, some observations;

1) Many Force powers are non options or rarely used (ISYTDS, Brilliant Evasion, for example)

2) Free mods reward poor play choices (Skillfull blocking by an opponent is lessened in relation to negative impact)

3) Force allows other core critical design facets (obstacles, stress) to be wholly ignored for a majority of engagements in terms of dice mods

3) The Force tax makes some options in build diversity cost prohibitive

4) FFG is somewhat painted into a corner in lowering point costs for Force elements

5) The prevailing consensus is Force tokens are to mainly be used for modifying dice

What happens if the Rules Reference could be updated to read; "If a ship's Perform Action step is skipped for any reason, no Force tokens may be spent for the purposes of dice modification during the Engagement Phase."

Wonder how that would affect the game in relation to the above points? Would it require more skill? Would it open up Force ability choices to be more competitively considered or costs lowered? Does the game become better balanced?

Just thinking aloud...

Every power, currently, except for Hate requires Force point use. I would think that was meant to be the balancing feature, since you wouldn't have them available for attack or defense.

A lot of the powers are likely just priced to high to be of any use to competitive players. Even if the points for powers were reduced, those players would only use them when they were ahead or to get ahead.

Without modifying rules text on the cards, I would say a possible "fix" could be you roll a green die at the end of the turn to replenish Force, instead of getting it back for free.

I find none of these are problems except the force=call for double mods.

Pricing is quite competitive.

The only thing I would consider is a total pricing revamp with force no longer equaling calculate. This would make force use and talents more interesting.

Frankly though atm while the game is balanced on a knife edge with these easy double mods it doesn’t feel bad.

Actually rolling a green die for replenish sounds great

Can someone remind me what the original concepts of the force were? I recall it being talked about somewhere.

There is this pervasive believe that force represents something fundamentally different that anything already in the game

Its not. You could replace almost every mention of Force in your post with Agi/Atk (with a few exceptions). You guns don't get weaker somehow after a 4K, nor does your midoclorian count.

The main strength of force over atk/agi is flexibility. This is thematically great and fine at the right cost. Delta7 CLTs are actually pretty wholesome.

The only reason force is doing well is because of its costing and because regen is highly synergistic (on Delta 7Bs). The saltieness is due to the normal reasons (people preferring their favorite ship be meta instead) and due to regen not being fun to play agains. The fix lies in nerfing regen and fine-tuning cost.

I'm just wanting my Ysalimiri Nutrient Frame crew upgrade, which blocks the ability to spend Force points at range 0-1 and also drains one point per turn at the end of the end phase if a ship is within that range.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

I find none of these are problems except the force=call for double mods.

Pricing is quite competitive.

The only thing I would consider is a total pricing revamp with force no longer equaling calculate. This would make force use and talents more interesting.

Frankly though atm while the game is balanced on a knife edge with these easy double mods it doesn’t feel bad.

Good feedback. Do you think that as the game stands that we'd see Force builds have more options, or more ships viably if Force taxes were able to be reduced? Do games possibly go on longer or shorter with Force being removed as the preeminent value of dice modification? you've got a lot more experience in this than I do.

Alternately, a change to the Force rules as follows:

Light-Side ships may spend any number of Force points to change an equal number of Focus results to Evade results.

Dark-Side ships may spend any number of Force points to change an equal number of Focus results to Hit results.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. NEVER for attack."

Has potential. You have to be a bit more careful in flying if you want force.

A wrinkle I see is Mace’s ability. The doing a red to get a Force back feels like a bad investment when you can’t use them to mod dice. That might be fixed with a Force Power to spend the extra regenerated Force, but I’m not sure if any of the current Force Powers are quite worth it.

Another interesting point is that this change might be a boon for Ahsoka. Her ability means she can still go over obstacles or do reds, and still have mods. Just so long as she doesn’t bum anybody. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view.

3 minutes ago, SuperWookie said:

Every power, currently, except for Hate requires Force point use.

Isn't that part of the conundrum though? You need the force to fuel abilities which take up your action too. So now you don't have active mods or the passive force mods. And I'd like to use some of the regular elite talents on Force users on occasion. It always seems like there is never a good choice with the force users.

3 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Alternately, a change to the Force rules as follows:

Light-Side ships may spend any number of Force points to change an equal number of Focus results to Evade results.

Dark-Side ships may spend any number of Force points to change an equal number of Focus results to Hit results.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. NEVER for attack."

Wow, that's a really cool idea. Thematic with precedent. Well done!

The pathway to worthwhile but not broken force power upgrades, is when they start having a purple "-1" printed on the right.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

The pathway to worthwhile but not broken force power upgrades, is when they start having a purple "-1" printed on the right.

Jeez, you guys are coming up with all sorts of cool insights here. That sort of thing didn't even occur to me.

My only problem with Force is that it encourages force-sensitive pilots to lock all the time instead of focusing all the time.

I heard someone suggest awhile back that you could use a force charge to re-roll a die. This would encourage focusing, and would also add a little less reliability to force mods, making them more of a difficult choice.

Fun extra: Add the potential of re-rolling asteroid and upgrade dice like Han and you have something especially interesting...

Of course, it's so set in stone now that I doubt it would ever happen. It would also make Fifth Brother extremely powerful.

12 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

My only problem with Force is that it encourages force-sensitive pilots to lock all the time instead of focusing all the time.

I heard someone suggest awhile back that you could use a force charge to re-roll a die. This would encourage focusing, and would also add a little less reliability to force mods, making them more of a difficult choice.

Fun extra: Add the potential of re-rolling asteroid and upgrade dice like Han and you have something especially interesting...

Of course, it's so set in stone now that I doubt it would ever happen. It would also make Fifth Brother extremely powerful.

You act as if pilots not taking a focus action is a bad thing. In my opinion, anything which encourages pilots to take any other action is a good thing.

1 minute ago, AceDogbert said:

You act as if pilots not taking a focus action is a bad thing. In my opinion, anything which encourages pilots to take any other action is a good thing.

I didn't mean it's "a bad thing," but rather anti-thematic that of all pilots, Jedi are the most focused on their targeting computers and least focused on concentrating. Just seems kinda weird.

Just agreeing outloud...

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

Good feedback. Do you think that as the game stands that we'd see Force builds have more options, or more ships viably if Force taxes were able to be reduced? Do games possibly go on longer or shorter with Force being removed as the preeminent value of dice modification? you've got a lot more experience in this than I do.

Thanks for the engaging conversation. I haven’t actually thought about it in depth. Mostly cuz I haven’t seen a massive imbalance. Only minor. Don’t fix what ain’t broke right?

Atm force power upgrades kinda suck. Generally except for sense and hate and precog they should go down quite a bit. Battle meds for ex.

So I don’t think it’s worth regaining the game by changing force=call to create more upgrade diversity.

Also I’m much more worried about lovely pilots and characters not being viable. Unviable upgrades are far too common. If force users start to dominate and create a very stratified meta along the lines of force vs no force i will join you in calling for their nerfing.

As of now, not yet. A minor cost increase. And a note to ffg to avoid doing more double mods is fine. At the moment. ...

my opinion changes based on new information lol.

Someone, somewhere on this forum mentioned the idea to regen force only on Blue Maneuvers. That's kind of an interesting idea. I guess "execute" vs "fully executed" would be up for debate.

____

I think the difficulty is with the Lore, Jedi are supposed to just be hands down better than everyone else because of their connection with the force. Better, faster, more accurate, etc. Not that the force advantage cannot be overcome (Grievous, Jango, large numbers, etc. could), but it is a big advantage.

I feel like force as it is nails that aspect pretty well. Ships with the force are simply better than those without. Sure, you have to roll a focus to use it, but between attacking w/a lock and defending, odds are you will get the chance.

The trick is costing it fairly to non-force users, but still usable over all. I think any ship with 3 force will be hard to price correctly.

_____

P.S . Could regen cost more along 2 axises: Agility and Force Rating?? Like a grid?

Kill regen. Save the game

Literally my only change to force (other than force powers that never see play getting MUCH cheaper, because they just aren't worth the point + force cost) would:

If you overlap a ship (of a same or larger size?) or overlap/move through an obstacle, you MUST spend a force for no effect

Can't really concentrate while ******* up, after all

Plus, there must be consequences

I dont think people fully appreciate how rare Always On Passive/Double/Multiple Modification that works on both sides of the dice without a support ship actually is. Equivalents exist but only in a very specific portion of the card pool, and very rarely built directly into a single ship platform that can modify both types of dice under so many possible circumstances.

Stuff that "kinda" parallels a portion of the flexibility that force allows:

• Built In Single Ship:
  • Boba
  • Soontir Fel
  • Tavson
  • Braylen
  • Han Solo
  • Vermiel
  • RAC
  • Defenders
  • N1s
  • Phantoms
  • HWK-290
  • E-Wings
  • Jonus
  • Redline
  • Lando Craft
  • Finn Pod
  • Rose Pod
  • Inaldra
  • Vennie
  • Deathrain
  • Wolffe
  • Rivas
  • Matchstick
  • Greivous
• Paid for as Support Ships
  • Coordinate Combos
  • Networked Calculate
  • Howlrunner
  • Sinker
  • Drea
  • Jake Farelll
  • IG88
  • Cracken
  • Sai
  • Jendon
  • Serissu
  • TN-3465
• Upgrades
  • Fearless
  • Composure
  • Lone Wolf
  • Fanatical
  • Saw
  • Foresight
  • Magva Yarro
  • Advanced Sensors
  • Pattern Analyzer
  • Collision Detector
  • Grappling Struts
  • Kraken
  • TA175
  • Sloane
  • 000

Not a completely comprehensive list (anything that allows dice mods + reposition are kinda force sensitive). Either way most stuff on this list is barely worth comparing to Force given how many more constraints they are subject to. Even things that approximate force modifications behavior are extremely rare. Not necessarily rare at tournaments, people bring alot of this stuff for a reason. Its rare in comparison to the vast majority of ships/pilots in game.

As implemented Force seems mechanically out of place.

Will continue to feel that way until there is a change to how it works, continued point increases to things that have it, or enough power creep across Ships/Pilots that it becomes less obviously different.

Im genuinely in favor of changing how it works because it would enable some of the coolest characters in the game to stay at buildable costs long term.

3 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Alternately, a change to the Force rules as follows:

Light-Side ships may spend any number of Force points to change an equal number of Focus results to Evade results.

Dark-Side ships may spend any number of Force points to change an equal number of Focus results to Hit results.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. NEVER for attack."

My problem with this is that it basically reads dark side users are now statistically better than light side users. Obviously points can fix some issues, but it's not wrong to say red dice win games.

3 hours ago, svelok said:

The pathway to worthwhile but not broken force power upgrades, is when they start having a purple "-1" printed on the right.

I'm sorry. Can you explain that long hand. I don't even know what rule you're referencing.