Game effects must proc before player effects, right? So if I roll all blanks, one gets changed to an evade and shuts off heroic?

In the obstructed rules on page fourteen a gas cloud is a "may do" effect on changing a blank.

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• If at least one gas cloud obstructs an attack, the defender may change 1 blank result to an 󲁄 result.

So I would definitely say you get your choice of the evade from the gas cloud or the Heroic re-roll on all blanks. Whether you get the Heroic re-roll and can change one of those blanks...

I would be inclined to go with you could blank out, heroic re-roll, flip a blank in the re-roll to an evade result. I think the gas cloud is a straight forward dice modification and can process just like any other in a rather "as you like" order.

you can choose. the effect from the gas cloud is optional. you can change one blank result to an evade, or trigger heroic, reroll all results and then use the effect from the gas cloud. at least that's how i interpret it.

it seems worth discussing whether you can actually apply the effect from the gas cloud after you've rerolled with heroic. i believe you can, since dice modification describes all dice modification as belonging to either player. i'm not sure either spending a lock, an evade token or anything similar should be considered player's abilities (since they're not abilities at all). dice modification is a bit strange compared to other effects and abilities in that sense.

2 minutes ago, meffo said:

it seems worth discussing whether you can actually apply the effect from the gas cloud after you've rerolled with heroic. i believe you can, since dice modification describes all dice modification as belonging to either player. i'm not sure either spending a lock, an evade token or anything similar should be considered player's abilities (since they're not abilities at all). dice modification is a bit strange compared to other effects and abilities in that sense.

It is worth discussing but I can't really make it much of a discussion. I got nothing for why you shouldn't get the change from gas cloud after a heroic re-roll. If the gas cloud rule used "must" or similar then I'd say you miss the re-roll in the first place.

Something else I would like to point out is how this question reinforced my opinion of needing an obstacles and bombs/devices cheat sheet. It took quite a bit of digging to find the proper entry and wording for the gas cloud effect.

Ok! I thought FOR SURE it was a must ... nevermind then.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

it seems worth discussing whether you can actually apply the effect from the gas cloud after you've rerolled with heroic. i believe you can, since dice modification describes all dice modification as belonging to either player. i'm not sure either spending a lock, an evade token or anything similar should be considered player's abilities (since they're not abilities at all). dice modification is a bit strange compared to other effects and abilities in that sense.

Eeeehhh... this is sketchy. In a way, i see this as still being a game effect that has to be applied first. While even though something like a Focus Tokens or Locks are outlined in the rules, they are generated by player effects (focus/lock action or abilities) so i would count them as player effects. Meaning the evade result, Even though its optional yes, would need to be decided to be added before player dice mods could take effect.

At least, that's how im seeing it.

Also, if its not obviously implied here, im not saying thats how it is, just that this is the possible interpretation.

55 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Eeeehhh... this is sketchy. In a way, i see this as still being a game effect that has to be applied first. While even though something like a Focus Tokens or Locks are outlined in the rules, they are generated by player effects (focus/lock action or abilities) so i would count them as player effects. Meaning the evade result, Even though its optional yes, would need to be decided to be added before player dice mods could take effect.

At least, that's how im seeing it.

Also, if its not obviously implied here, im not saying thats how it is, just that this is the possible interpretation.

I do not think anyone particularly disagrees with that as being a valid interpretation -- Heroic OR Gas Cloud's "free" evade.

We just do not have a lot to go on with requirements for ordering dice mods. It is kind of a free-for-all as long as you aren't re-rolling a die more than once. Unless I'm missing some sort of ability queue usage with regards to this.

If this happened at casual night I'd take a vote around the room and go with the consensus or just decide it on a die roll and play it that way from then on or until a FAQ said to do it some other way.

While I understand the "one or the other" argument, I'd be inclined to say that both effects can be used together. Both Heroic and "Gas Cloud" represent optional dice modification effects, and both therefore have an implicit timing window of Attack Step 3.B. (modify defense dice). Since it's a "while" effect, I would think players could insert them into the queue, resolve them, then insert the other, and resolve it. There's no hard trigger that forces all modifications to be queued, before resolving them.

To that end, a hypothetical ship (say a generic T-70 X-Wing) with Heroic could...

1. ...Roll defense dice (in this case, 3 blanks with gas cloud obstruction), THEN...
2. ...Choose to queue and resolve Heroic (re-rolling into evade/focus/blank), THEN...
3. ...Choose to queue and resolve Gas Cloud (changing a blank to an evade).

The big question that remains is whether or not the ability queue rules (game effects before player abilities) still take precedence over wide timing windows (as opposed to singular triggers).

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Q: When specifically during an attack do effects that apply "while you perform an attack" or "while you defend" apply?

A: Abilities are applied at the step in the attack at which they take effect. For example, in the case of Predator, as this is a dice modification, it is applied at Step 2b: Modify Attack Dice. Note, however, that effects resolved during Step 2b: Modify Attack Dice and 3b: Modify Defense Dice do not use the ability queue, as they are resolved in the order described in that section of the rules reference.

This answer from the official rulings thread would indicate that any effect which takes place during the Modify Attack(Defence) Dice step does not use the ability queue and should therefore not be bound by the rule that game effects occur before player abilities.

3 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

This answer from the official rulings thread would indicate that any effect which takes place during the Modify Attack(Defence) Dice step does not use the ability queue and should therefore not be bound by the rule that game effects occur before player abilities.

...there ya go! A direct ruling that addresses this situation to the letter. Can't get more straightforward than that!

34 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

...there ya go! A direct ruling that addresses this situation to the letter. Can't get more straightforward than that!

I don't see this as answering the question in a clear cut or direct way. What those are answering, straightforward, are player abilities. The only thing that clarifies is that Heroic happens during the modify dice step. Note that the Gas cloud doesn't specifically state "while you defend", which is what that ruling is specifically stating.

I'm still not totally convinced the gas cloud's effect can happen "whenever you want it to".

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Q: When specifically during an attack do effects that apply "while you perform an attack" or "while you defend" apply?

A: Abilities are applied at the step in the attack at which they take effect. For example, in the case of Predator, as this is a dice modification, it is applied at Step 2b: Modify Attack Dice. Note, however, that effects resolved during Step 2b: Modify Attack Dice and 3b: Modify Defense Dice do not use the ability queue, as they are resolved in the order described in that section of the rules reference.

thanks, @joeshmoe554 ! that clears it up nicely. effects used during the modify attack dice or modify defence dice does not use the ability queue. i could have wished there was a clear "order described in that section of the rules reference", but since there is not really, i'll just go with they way it's been done so far, as in any which way the player likes, defender first for attack dice and attacker first for defence dice.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

thanks, @joeshmoe554 ! that clears it up nicely. effects used during the modify attack dice or modify defence dice does not use the ability queue. i could have wished there was a clear "order described in that section of the rules reference", but since there is not really, i'll just go with they way it's been done so far, as in any which way the player likes, defender first for attack dice and attacker first for defence dice.

I guess since the gas cloud doesn't specifically say "while you defend", this is all we have to go on. Logically it makes sense as well, it just goes against their "game effects always happen first" rule.

5 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I guess since the gas cloud doesn't specifically say "while you defend", this is all we have to go on. Logically it makes sense as well, it just goes against their "game effects always happen first" rule.

What the gas cloud does say, though, is that "the defender may change one blank result to an evade result." Since changing results is a modification, it happens in the modify dice step. And since there's a ruling which states , "anything that happens during a modify results step does not use the ability queue," the point is moot: it doesn't matter that game effects happen first, player abilities happen second, because that rule doesn't apply during dice modification.