first off yes a vibe spear is a ranged weapon and therefore dosn't apply for a mono upgrade by RAW

I'm looking for a nice weapon for a moritat assassin as a Vibe Spear does Rending damage I think it's ok to say yes it has an edge (and I know only of pointy or edged spears and pointy spears probably would have Impact damage)

having trouble in believing that a mono upgrade on a wooden item would last very long I'm thinking more of something like:

good craftsmanship (or best) mono ceramite vibe spear... (because I don't know any good material that would fit in the 40k universe) (altough I heard of some plantlike weapon that was mono?)

basically keeping every stats maybe adding a bit of weight

now my questions:

what does craftsmanship do for thrown weapons? (can't find rules here)

how would this spear behave in melee?(normal "spear" values?)

is escaping the snare triggering the 1d5 extra damage? (or is it 2 completely seperate efects and once out of snare the enemy can run away with my weapon throwing it back at me next time we cross path's ?)

is a standard vibe spear supposed to be destroyed upon impact?

or at unsuccessfull retrieval?

"the thorned head may break off in the wound"

how easily could one break such a weapon... if I throw it at a mutant ant he get's "snared" and simply trys to break the thing to get free (as an interpretation of the strength check to break out of snare)... is the weapon useless now?

would you allow for a lathe vibe spear?

and Yes I think a vibe spear indeed is moritat like... big wounds much blood and of course an edge on the weapon

any ideas anyone?

and if I wanted to break the system I'ld ask for a groxwhip with a vibespear head on the end as a great weapon which then applies automatically for lathe... it can't be thrown any further then 3 meter with a shitload of penalties but who cares we have 3 meters melee range now and not only is it snared and can't move but if it tries to run we are dragged behind and then we play a tech-priest with a bolterpistol on our mechadendrite which we use to burst it always staying in point blank or at ascencion level we hold fast to the grox with our manipulator mecha and get out our heavy weapon to burst with it as we are still stabilised while being dragged somewhere ;P

I think a high-tech vibe spear is a cool idea and a fun signature weapon.

I'd just apply mono to it, no need for extra weight, super sharp, strong materials could well be lighter than wood anyway.

If you applied the Lathe quality to it, I'd halve the Range, but otherwise leave it the same.

I'd rule the mono-vibe spear is recoverable, not sure about the ordinary one.

I think attempting to remove the spear triggers the extra damage.

The breaking off head thing: It could be like a box-cutter blade, designed to snap apart. Or have barbs that do that, instead of the tip. maybe require each spear to be "reloaded" before it can be used again (probably 3 Full). To represent replacing the snapped of blades.

You could also give them an Atlatl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalatl

With that I'd double or triple the range, but requires Weapons Training: Exotic(Atalatl)

In my opinion, one should not even think about "mono upgrade" for a vibe spear. The "special damage" done by a vibe spear is due to some characteristic of the natural material it has been build from. I know that "mono" can be about everything as long as it somehow gives reason to the effect of "mono", but any tempering with material is imho very likely to destroy the "natural" effect.

In this case a player asking for a mono vibe spear would get a strict GM-NO-GO from me.

thing is mono makes a difference of primitive and 2 pen

the character comes from a feral world anyway so he basically fightet with those vibe spears his whole life and probably carved some of his own (now in rule terms this would be trade armourer and I won't get that)

so either I pack loads of vibe spears into my gear having enough to snare a fleet of orks because if they're lost they're lost

or I get one to three mono vibe spear(s) which are reusable...

probably 1 and get the spartans feeling of 300 with a moritat... get a shield, get a mono vibe spar and if thrown draw your mono sword...

"THIS IS IMPERIUM!" (with regards to Torog Tarkdacil)

(also I prefer a sigilite as an assassin)

so as I understand vibe spears its a long wooden staff balanced to be thrown about 10 meters (so not balanced at all ) then there is its sharpened spear head which is carved out of the wood (instead of an affixed metal point) and in this area houndreds of tiny barbs are created with some technique we are not discussing here...

so... yeah probably it's special wood for special flight abilitys and hardness so it actually pierces a beasts wound and goes in deep enough to remain in there and probably it's special would which allows for those barbs to be created...

so the question is what kind of material

a) can have the same (or better) flight abilities (and about the same weight)

b) can be used to create houndreds of tiny barbs at the edged part

c) is as sturdy that it dosn't break (or get's seriously damaged) on it's way in and out of the enemy°

Gregorious of course already mentioned that in his opinion there can't be such material anywhere within the 40k universe. fine if I'ld play in his group I could live with it no offense here

but back to my questions... what material could accomplish this? (I'm a fan of ceramics blade in the real world and I think ceramite resembles it's (even-more) high-tech variant) and I think it just could to the trick

as for Agmar_Strick 's ideas I think they're good...

but I'm still missing input of melee behaviour... spear? improvised? (if possible 1handed it's not that fun to fight with -20 for one hand penalty)

I'ld even go for sharpening the second end with a normal blade to use it (that would make atlatl use impossible)

either way I think 1d10+SB pen 2 will be it or should I stick with the ranged damage 1d10+2+SB pen 3 ?

I think Atlatl is a good idea but would probably just go with javelins and for great range the moritat already has his crossbow pistol

(actually with two of these could one make a moritat metalican gunslinger? XD it seems possible altough having only primitive weapons at hand kinda sucks)

Sirion said:

In my opinion IF such a material would be accessable to the Imperium and the Imperium could re-produce it we would have this (insert-name)-Special spear in the IH and no-one would have cared for the vibe spear to begin with.

But if you want to include a spear with the same mechanical game effect in your game world, simply take the stats, at the mono and call it a "vibro spear". As "fluff" I would say it would be a high-tech-viber-material thing that starts vibrating while the spear is thrown ("catching" energy from the throwing/the air movement) and continous to vibrate a small time after the impact...thereby resulting in the same game effect then a "mono-vibe-spear". Perhaps the stuff has some small needle edges itself already.

I advise to stay away from ceramics. Once it was know that knives made of it where "invisible" (cough-cough) to detection, a whole RPGamer-Hype started for the stuff. The thing everyone forgets is that ceramic isn´t flexibel. The larger and "fragile" the objects gets (like swordblades or complete spears) the more prone it will be to shattering upon impact.

As for stats, use what was given by the vibspear and simply at the monoquality (like you wanted in the first place). If no seperate thrown "weapon attributes" are listed (besides the range), assume that the stats do not change.

Hope this was more helpfull to you.

thanks

and btw they did create flexible ceramics recently (like last year I think) it is not ready for productive use yet I think as they lack a scalable way to produce it

I only read german news about it but a simple google search comes up with link

and I thought hey... 38000 years in the future a material called ceramite... probably they have the technology...

and yes as ceramite is invisible to detectors it is not heatconductive it is light and sturdy it is a nice material to make military grade equipment out of it as they already do... (buletproof vests etc...) but thanks again for your opinion do you have an adequate idea for material? I'm just getting into the 40k universe

altough I don't know if the added particles for the flexible ceramics still make it invisible...

As for the vibe spear materials...It is given its special damage from a wooden material. IF you make it from any modern/tech material you will LOOSE the special damage property. You are forgettting exactly what the "mono" quality does. Mono-molecular ( single molecule thick) razor edge..which precludes your idea of combining the special abilities with the penetration value of mono uality upgrades. The idea is a munchkin weapon. and as for ceramite being able to have the vibe quality for damage..NO simply put. It can get the mono quality but not the unique vibe quality attributed to the spear. You could get a regular spear and give it the mono upgrade because you can fight in melee with the spear as an option or even the Lathe upgrade to a regular spear.

As for a Moritat gunslinger....im going to be nice here and just say read the descriptions of the two more closely before you post things like that. Moritat require blades as their primary weapons and gunslingers require GUNS....as their primary...you CANNOT mix the two. Look at some of my other posts and youll see i dont mind bending the rules and in some cases throwing them out BUT i wont break the rules or the game dynamics in the process... i do still maintain the balance with things...and yes i am a GM

first of a moritat gets a crossbow pistol so yes it is possible secondly I just stumbled upon shuriken pistols !!!

a dual-shurikenpistol-wielding metalican moritat gunslinger is possible as long as you don't rule shurikens from shuriken pistols have no edge but then still he could use 2 crossbow pistols as long as you don't rule that crossbow pistols are no "guns" but still do they have to use "guns" ??? the trait is called "Knave of Pistols" not "Knave of Guns" and clearly it states that using pistols is required not "guns" ofcourse there is no RAW about what a crossbow pistol is but what is it if not a pistol?
If I still missed something while reading it again please tell me.

and yeah I'm asking about what you would allow or not... if you say ofcourse take a vibe spear mono it but it remains wooden and is only sharper and gets destroyed upon retrieval (or only if not retrieved with a successfull medic test) so be it...

if you say take a vibe spear of ceramite and mono it but it uses it's special rule and just remains a snaring 10m thrown weapon with the normal mono rules for a 2handed spear... so be it

if I could mono it for melee purpose and it would behave like a mono spear but was to be used with it's original values if thrown.... ok

and the description says it looks like fresh cut wood but the extra damage comes from tiny backwards curving barbed thorns...
so if made of different material why shouldn't I be able to do this? (I think the reason it is made of wook is that it is from a feral world (endrite))
(and vibe is just a name I think I can't find anything about vibrating or stuff)

but all of this "dosn't work" "munchkin" flaming helps nobody I'm seriously asking what you would rule an not if it was munchkining.. or overpowered

Cobramax76 said:

I can think of a lot more broken things than a vibe-spear with Pen 2. Just putting that out there.

My experience with Javelins (in a reenactment context) suggests to me that the vibe spear in melee would work, but not very well. to be light enough to be able to be thrown well it needs to be very light, which means it is too fragile to parry with. So I'd give it the unweildy trait. I'd leave the damage the same, but remember that you stab them and disarm yourself.

I'd just also carry a dedicated melee weapon...

The moriat gunslinger gives me lols, I recommend Fedrid Razor disks or Moon blades rather than Shiruken pistols. Were I the GM, I don't think I'd let the shiruken pistols slide.

from france

i think that contrary to the raw erratat a lot of range weapons can be upgraded to mono. even one of the moderator apreciate the ida.

take the arow for example it s a ranged weapon but in case of extreme emrgency it can be use as a melee weapon. like in the famous stories where a hunter kil a bear by striking his jugular with a harow.

well as a 300 sparta lokkalike character unwieldy for a javelin/vibe spear is not the exact problem
if I go vibe spear + sigilite it is even less

having it do the same in melee as in ranged combat (stab -> snare + weapon is stuck in enemy) of course is an option

and my character of course still carries his mono sword which he gets at game begin anyway

and for moon blades and fedrid razor disks (which I can't recall atm) ... you need to use pistols for gunslinger...

shuriken pistols have advantages and disadvantegs over bolt pistols:

shuriken pistols do 2 damage less but provide a full auto option with 5 shots and ammunition costs 12.5 per shuriken instead of 12 per bolt

of course acquiring the weapon is the main problem (4,5k each) and the exotic weapon training which you don't get without an elite advance

AND you are running around with xeno tech basically making you a heretic (which I think is enough drawback to actually allow it)

Gregorius21778 said:

Having reread the IH entry out of interest for this, I believe it quite possible that the "vibe" part (which makes it different from a regular spear) could easily be explained by the technique used in its construction (the barbs and whatnot) rather than the material, since nothing special about the wood is mentioned besides being barbed. I would personally have no problem with a PC asking to have the head replaced with barbed monomolecular pins or somesuch approximation of the barbs made with higher tech.

I'm totally nicking the idea of a "ranged" moritat; a technosavage with mono-vibe-spears, fragmentation-grenade crossbow darts, and a power axe. This guy sounds like a brutal NPC.

I dont see any problem with the shuriken pistols at all...they are afterall pistols...No problem with the crossbow ideas either ( primative as they may be they are simply more like ancient attempts at pistols made with modern materials...both of those are good. As for the Knave of pistols...the particulars give you a penalty of -10 to all other ballistics and no longer allowed to gain any other ballistic weapon talents except for exotic pistol ones. While the reaper skill lies with the blade only. I just reread both the moritat and metallicans info requirements etc...to be sure...both require assassin main class yes....but the moritat requires it to be declared as the advance at initial creation and throughout the process of becoming a moritat....While in the full descriptions of both it doesnt give any solid evidence to prevent the two from being used together...in the chapter 1 creation rules for background packages ( required for the moritat) on pg 31 of IH it clearly states that the the you gain the bloody edge trait ( not talent ) when you pick up the background package to Start with. and it says

"the Moritat disdain many modern weapons as crude and spiritually unfullfilling, preferring instead the sacred edge of the blade. As a result they must pass a Hard (-20) Willpower Test to use any weapon lacking an "edge" in combat (thrown blades, knives and arrows are fine) unless they obviously have no chance of harming their enemy otherwise. However such is their deadly artistry at bloodletting, any edged weapon wielded by them counts as having the Tearing quality when used against living beings"

Given what is stated there...i would still have no problems allowing a crossbow ( still edged with the bolt tips just not melee ) but not anything more "modern" like pistols unless it was the only thing the PC had available to do damage with ( and what self respecting reaper would be caught dead without at least one blade hidden on their person for use in a pinch?

That Trait from the reaper that is part of the required background package would be seriously at odds with the normal upbringing of any metallican anything. So again i really dont see how you could mix the two ( though i do see the PC being born on metallican and due to some great violent act losing their family real early and being taken for training by the moritat then...as that is what they do normally anyway....but just not the gunslinger and reaper both...

Final note...i didnt mean to offend you...i reread my first posting after reading your response to it...i appologize for how heavy handed i came off...it was not my intention to offend or belittle. I do like the idea of a unique styled spear...just not as the description goes....Perhaps a customized spear ( modern light weight enhanced with the Tearing quality ) so you could retrieve it for use and make it more effective in combat ( since you wouldnt have to worry about the tip breaking off. AND a reaper could use it because it IS a bladed weapon ( though their ability for making any bladed weapon gain tearing quality would be a bit redundant...) Just a general thought

I won't play a moritat metalican gunslinger for several reasons:
I probably won't get these shuriken pistols and if... the ammo still is **** expensive...
I'm not very into the style of a gunslinger in this setting...
running around with two pieces of xeno technology... hell that's a bit uncomforting and with an AS in my group... she'ld probably kill me without a question
it is probably not the spirit of the moritat to use xeno guns just because they have an edge...

I just wanted to mention that it is indeed possible and tolerated by the rules.

thanks for the clarification of your intentions

I won't give the composite-material vibe spear the tearing quality for nothing different material shouldn't just make it tearing imo
but having it handled with rules similar to lathe (armour value of 25 if directly attacked) like... if a creature tries to break free with strength it does get destroyed if it accumulates like ~5 extra successes otherwise it's just ripped it out... would be okay by me... of course "is not destroyed" would be ok too

and using it with my my WS instead of WS if in close combat but having the same rules and effects would be ok by me too (sticking it into the enemy where it remains) sooner or later the question would arise is ripping it out (strength test) a half action and can I stick it in / draw it out in the same turn allowed (as 2 half actions)

so to sum up

moritat gunslinger is ok by RAW but is questionable by fluff and the roleplaying point of view

mono for vibe spear is ok with different material as well as using WS with it but it may need a different namen because essentially it's not the famous weapon from Endrite but some reconstructed version and it probably would look like just a fresh cut polished stick of wood composite-material unless examined with any scrutiny. So if I had a sheathe like shroud or something I could even conceal it as a walking stick and if I didn't they'ld see a spear and at least need some schloastic lore(weapons) or trade (armourer) (trained eye) or couldn't even see the barbs unless they explicitly checked the spear.

another idea would be to make the barbs retrievable and have it loose the special rules unless the barbs are set back

A few thoughts of my own

A shield and spear combo seems an higly unlikely choice for an assassins - you're not into 300-style last stands. You leave that to the big, though and dumb and instead fight smart, sneaky and mean. Poisoned knife in the back, well aimed headshot from a dark corner, pushing the guy's head underwater when he's relaxing in his bathub, dropping a monowire garrote from the rafters and pulling up, that sort of things. What matters is that the target is dead and you can get away from the crime scene. anyhtin that hampers your mobility is bad . A spear and shiled combo defnitively si something that will hamper mobility. Imagine sneaking in through a window and getting stuck because the spear strapped to your back bumps crossways into the sides. Sounds like a shameful way to die....

As far as replicating the vibe effect, you can probably get that sort of effects with a specialy treated spearhead - maybe some sort of ceamic-like material with a small bursting charge that spreads plenty of sharp fragments. Replace the spearhead with each use of course, but the shaft will be fine.