I had a realization yesterday.

As much as people have argued whether or not 6x Alpha Interceptors or 6x Planetary Sentinels would be OP or even Viable, one fact seems to have slipped completely under the radar.

6x 3-Attack ships already exists, in the Imperial faction. Except this has 12 firing arcs, 24 hull, and 6 shields on 2 agility.

That's right, I'm talking about the Sienar Specialist with Ion Cannon Turret! Why are we not seeing more of these running around? The limitation to Range 2 on the 3-attack weapon isn't trivial, but when you factor in all the extra health, the existence of shields, and all the extra arc coverage offered by this list, it's hard to imagine why this wouldn't be an incredibly potent list.

The time-on-target would be extremely powerful for pinning down aces, probably much better than is even available to the RZ-2. Ionization is incredible for shutting down Jedi, and the coverage and dice count for ionizing attacks are really abundant. Linked BR-Evade gives them a lot more survivability than their 2-agility would imply as well.

So why aren't they getting played? Are 18 attack dice behind 30 health really not that powerful? Or has it just been completely overlooked for the last 3 months?

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I had a realization yesterday.

As much as people have argued whether or not 6x Alpha Interceptors or 6x Planetary Sentinels would be OP or even Viable, one fact seems to have slipped completely under the radar.

6x 3-Attack ships already exists, in the Imperial faction. Except this has 12 firing arcs, 24 hull, and 6 shields on 2 agility.

That's right, I'm talking about the Sienar Specialist with Ion Cannon Turret! Why are we not seeing more of these running around? The limitation to Range 2 on the 3-attack weapon isn't trivial, but when you factor in all the extra health, the existence of shields, and all the extra arc coverage offered by this list, it's hard to imagine why this wouldn't be an incredibly potent list.

The time-on-target would be extremely powerful for pinning down aces, probably much better than is even available to the RZ-2. Ionization is incredible for shutting down Jedi, and the coverage and dice count for ionizing attacks are really abundant. Linked BR-Evade gives them a lot more survivability than their 2-agility would imply as well.

So why aren't they getting played? Are 18 attack dice behind 30 health really not that powerful? Or has it just been completely overlooked for the last 3 months?

3 Dice dealing a maximum of 1 damage with those ion cannons tends to fall short in several cases if the Ion tokens don’t get applied.

9 minutes ago, Ronu said:

3 Dice dealing a maximum of 1 damage with those ion cannons tends to fall short in several cases if the Ion tokens don’t get applied .

In other words: It's bad because it can only hit once or it's bad because it can't ionize?

You can't have it both ways. Ion is about as valuable as a hit on average: much more against Jedi and Aces, much less against large ships. We're definitely seeing more of the former than the latter in this meta, and aces are traditionally the tougher matchup for this list anyway. Even if it couldn't ionize, 3-dice greatly improves your ability to get the first hit through regardless. It should be treated as a 3-attack platform, the only exception being the lack of range 3, which is largely mitigated (or more than) by the existence of an additional arc and the mobility of the 3-dice arc.

For the same reason 5 gunboats with ion cannon aren’t great, getting enough guns on target to do something requires predictable flying which your ships won’t survive.

I have run alot of 5 Striker Wampa. Alot.

Its easily my favorite list in the game to play.

Its decent but not something I would trust at anything besides a kit tournament and a very carefully balanced hyperspace trial.

Especially now that ensnare exists.

For starters, probably no one actually owns 6 aggressors. Also, an all-ion squad has weaknesses, IMHO. It's going to be a very up-hill battle against high-health stuff.

However, I think there's promise to a turret-only Aggressor . It's a lot like a non-gunner TIE/sf, with a lot of time-on-target with dice mods.

I could see maybe 4 Ion + Ace (Vader can't afford any upgrades, but a loaded Soontir or a moderate Whisper would), which should add some punching power. Flying 4 Ion Scyks + Fenn Rau felt good in scum, and Aggressors are a lot like Scyks, in a way.

Or maybe 2 Ion Aggressors + 2 Aces. Vader and Soontir together would fit, depending on build.

1 minute ago, Estarriol said:

For the same reason 5 gunboats with ion cannon aren’t great, getting enough guns on target to do something requires predictable flying which your ships won’t survive.

Gunboats also fly wicked weird. They've got a great statline, but being on SLAM without K-Turns can be kind of awkward. I've enjoyed flying Ion Scyks, and TIE/Ag have a lot more conventional ways of flying.

29 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

For the same reason 5 gunboats with ion cannon aren’t great, getting enough guns on target to do something requires predictable flying which your ships won’t survive.

27 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its decent but not something I would trust at anything besides a kit tournament and a very carefully balanced hyperspace trial.

Given these, does it not follow that while 6x Striker or Interceptor could be mean on the first pass, they actually won't win that many games? They don't have great time-on-target, they don't have any more offense than a Howl Swarm to start with, (I have proof) they bleed out MoV, and they're pretty RNG-dependent. It seems like a pretty low-skill-floor, low-skill-ceiling type list, like 5 Cartel Marauders.

Does the argument against 33-pt Interceptor or Striker generics on the basis of too many 3-dice attacks not fall apart on these grounds? I'd like to see them as decent filler. The spam list will never be competitive anyway.

I mean, it's the same reason people don't fly lists like this:

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Trade Federation Drone (19)

Feethan Ottraw Autopilot (36)
TA-175 (5)

Total: 199

It has 6x 3-attacks, plus two more 2-attacks, and loads of free calculate.

It's not flown because it's all I1 and get's initiative-killed, the parts are all flimsy so it bleeds out MoV, and it's too easy for it to be flanked or dodged by a bunch of I3s or even I2s. And people don't want to buy that many models for a fringe list anyway.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's a lot like a non-gunner TIE/sf, with a lot of time-on-target with dice mods.

A little better, actually; you have more arc coverage, and a 3-dice attack without focus is statistically equivalent to a 2-dice attack with focus. In other words, you could rotate every turn and still have the same chance of dealing one hit. If you get 2 through, that chance goes up very quickly as you can get a lot of guns on an ionized target, and you can likely focus instead of rotating due to the target's predictability.

33 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

So why aren't they getting played? Are 18 attack dice behind 30 health really not that powerful? Or has it just been completely overlooked for the last 3 months?

Because who among us has 6 TIE Aggressors? That would be my prime reason.

11 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

A little better, actually; you have more arc coverage, and a 3-dice attack without focus is statistically equivalent to a 2-dice attack with focus. In other words, you could rotate every turn and still have the same chance of dealing one hit. If you get 2 through, that chance goes up very quickly as you can get a lot of guns on an ionized target, and you can likely focus instead of rotating due to the target's predictability.

There's advantages to both. Aggressor has more arc coverage potential, but has to spend actions to adjust it SF has Range 3 on the rear arc, only a Range 2 turret for the Aggressor. TIE/sf has a better defensive statline. TIE/sf can take Advanced Optics (which is amazing), but the Aggressor rolls 3 dice.

If I had two aggressors, I'd certainly try flying two with Vader/Soontir, but alas, they're not easy to come by at a reasonable price.

Look, I LOVE kestal and am firmly on the "she's actually decent, guys" train

But six ion aggresors? They're getting diced by any opposing jousting list

Ion is a support weapon; it won't carry games at one damage a pop

Or you can fly something like this:

Gideon Hask (30)
Ship total: 30 Half Points: 15 Threshold: 2

"Wampa" (30)
Ship total: 30 Half Points: 15 Threshold: 2

"Mauler" Mithel (32)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 34 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2

"Scourge" Skutu (32)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 34 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2

Sienar Specialist (28)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3

Sienar Specialist (28)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Ship total: 33 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 3


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z223XWY221XY219X127WY220X127WY190X138W238WWWY190X138WWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

55 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Ion is a support weapon; it won't carry games at one damage a pop

It's been demonstrated over and over that a 3-attack Ion weapon deals more damage than a 2-attack primary, in spite of the damage cap. 2-primaries almost never deal two damage anyway, and the Ion will deal 1 damage far, far more often. How many 2-primary ships wish they could do "one damage a pop" instead of zero?

If you actually are getting ion through often enough that you're missing out on important damage, than you have incredible board-state control and should trivially decimate your opponent's list with your 12 arcs on very predictable targets.

With the recent buff to ion, it's almost strictly better than a single damage point, especially vs Aethersprites and Imp Aces.

It's only weaker against low-agility lists, for which the matchup is typically given to the swarm anyway (e.g. Rebel Beef's only hard counter was Inferno IIRC).

I mean, if you think you're better off with a 2-attack than a 3-ion-attack, then... I mean... You still have that available to you, right?

@ClassicalMoser , I will join your perilous crusade of the 2-primary ship swarm with 3ion dice.

M3 Ion swarm, Ion Resistance Transports.

I'm a believer.

I think the problem with ion cannons of any flavour is that while they're better than a 2 dice primary at more consistently landing that 1 damage, they're not actually that great at their primary role/ability: applying ion tokens.

36 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I think the problem with ion cannons of any flavour is that while they're better than a 2 dice primary at more consistently landing that 1 damage, they're not actually that great at their primary role/ability: applying ion tokens.

This I do agree with, which is why ion cannon is basically never taken on ships with a 3-primary.

They’re good for damage, but decidedly “meh” for control.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Look, I LOVE kestal and am firmly on the "she's actually decent, guys" train

But six ion aggresors? They're getting diced by any opposing jousting list

Ion is a support weapon; it won't carry games at one damage a pop

Mixing in just one beat-stick ship can go a long way. I could see as much as 2/3rds of a list being Ion and the list still being good, if you've got the hitting power to follow up on it elsewhere.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It's been demonstrated over and over that a 3-attack Ion weapon deals more damage than a 2-attack primary, in spite of the damage cap. 2-primaries almost never deal two damage anyway, and the Ion will deal 1 damage far, far more often. How many 2-primary ships wish they could do "one damage a pop" instead of zero?

That isn't the issue with mass Ion, however. To be sure, mass Ion is going to be decent at pushing damage into Vader or Kylo Ren or whatever.

The issue is that mass Ion can't take an ARC or a T-70 or a tonne of other stuff off the table in a single good turn. Hard cap of 1 damage per ship isn't too bad. Hard cap of 6 damage per list per turn can be. Massed SF, particularly with the superior talent choice of Crack Shot can spike damage a lot better than these Aggressors could. If it's Ion vs B-Wing, maybe it's a slow march to victory, maybe a few 3-dice range 1 primary attacks to chip away a bit harder. I know this is turrets more than pure joust, but there's a point where you just don't have enough damage to win fast enough against some kinds of things.

Less an issue with Ion in itself, more an issue with monoculture spam lists.

5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They’re good for damage, but decidedly “meh” for control.

I think there's a critical mass where Ion can control very well. There's a fine balance between meeting that, and not having enough damage.

Like, I figure 4 Ion Aggressors and 2 Strikers or 2 Interceptors could do OK. That'd still be 6 ships with 3 red dice, but the hitting power really goes up when you really want hitting power, as well as the blocking potential against other stuff.

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Less an iss ue with Ion in itself , more an issue with monoculture spam lists .

Definitely true. This could be a particularly good spam list, but spam lists will (or should) always be jank.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Like , I figure 4 Io n Aggressors and 2 Strikers or 2 Interceptors could do OK. That'd still be 6 ships with 3 red dice, but the hitting power really goes up when you re ally want hitting power, as well as the blocking potential against other stuff.

Exactly. This could be better than 6 interceptors OR 6 Aggressors.

Oh wait, this is legal?

Maybe there’s something of a real list here? Still awfully RNG

5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Oh wait, this is legal?

33 * 4 + 34 * 2 = 200.

The elephant in the room for mass ion lists, even once with a good offensive backbone ship or ships is swarms. Swarms will eat an ion Aggressor list in short order, and swarm lists are pretty **** common these days.

Even against aces, it's a bit shonky. Maintaining R3 engagements until enough Aggressors have popped should not be too hard, those things are predictable .

You have to factor in that at least 1 is dying every turn.

I doubt I'd put six Aggressors on the table, and honestly six Strikers or six Interceptors doesn't seem all that fun either, but I've tried this list a couple of times with good results:

• Academy Pilot (23)
• Academy Pilot (23)
• Sienar Specialist (Ion Cannon Turret) - 33
• Sienar Specialist (Ion Cannon Turret) - 33
• Imdaar Test Pilot (44)
• Imdaar Test Pilot (44)

Honestly, the I2 Aggressor is not terrible. It's a reliable if boring platform that can bank around the furball, and either chucking ion cannon shots at any agility 0-2 ships in range, or tank shots while the Phantoms go to work. If you fly decently well, aces will bump you, and the Phantoms turn into very dangerous aces against a swarm player.

8 hours ago, NakedDex said:

The elephant in the room for mass ion lists, even once with a good offensive backbone ship or ships is swarms. Swarms will eat an ion Aggressor list in short order, and swarm lists are pretty **** common these days.

Yep

When I'm saying ion can't carry games, I'm not comparing them to piddly, pathetic 2-die primaries. That's irrelevant; you won't face that (even TIEs get extra dice!)

No, you gotta compare them to legit 3-dice attacks, against which they will get diced

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

When I'm saying ion can't carry games, I'm not comparing them to piddly, pathetic 2-die primaries. That's irrelevant; you won't face that (even TIEs get extra dice!)

Whilst my reflex is to agree, I'd note that TIE/sf with 'just' 2-dice primaries do seem to do okay. Granted they're mostly seen with advanced optics, making those primaries more reliable, but I've been surprised how well 2-dice attacks can do when you can concentrate an entire squad's fire reasonable easily.

46 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Whilst my reflex is to agree, I'd note that TIE/sf with 'just' 2-dice primaries do seem to do okay. Granted they're mostly seen with advanced optics, making those primaries more reliable, but I've been surprised how well 2-dice attacks can do when you can concentrate an entire squad's fire reasonable easily.

see that's the thing, advanced optics

also auxilary arc

and more health + shields

Rz-2s as well. Their offense is super modded and, more importantly, their maneuverability and flexibility with their turret is insane

Much as I feel Kestal is decent, the aggressor does not benefit from such qualities (though the turret helps a bit). I'd honestly sooner pin my hopes on Strikers (plus they're really fun!)