23 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Guys like the jm5k have been so thoroughly buggered that it's just not worth trying to fix them

I actually did have JM5K fix in mind: give the Contracted Scout back the talent slot, and reduce the cost of Expert Handling from 2/4/6 to 1/2/3. With a slight tap down in price to the Jumps, that makes the Bumpmaster a lot more tempting than it's been. Maybe it still doesn't see much play, but it'd be a ship with a niche, with a role.

@theBitterFigI do think that Expert Handling is overcosted. 1/2/3 seems fair, but I ould even be fine with a trial cost of 1/3/5.

18 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

@theBitterFigI do think that Expert Handling is overcosted. 1/2/3 seems fair, but I ould even be fine with a trial cost of 1/3/5.

There's a few things I want trial costs (Resistance Sympathizer YT-1300 should get a test price at 66, since it's the squishiest and worst-dial of the 3-dice turrets, same as E-Wings got a [66-Proton Torpedoes] test price) for. There's enough stuff out there which is genuinely scary if breakpoints get busted.

Expert Handling doesn't really strike me as one of those. The only ships which can take it are ships which are almost universally thought of as bad. Jumpmasters, YT-2400, Z-95, Kimogila, Scurrg, and ARCs other than 104th. Punishers don't have Talents, right? But they're also mostly all ships which could make good use out of a white barrel roll. Kimos have their bullseye. Jumps and Zeds block. ARCs can try to get better shots (maybe Veteran Tail Gunner sees play if ARCs have cheap white barrel rolls?). YT-2400 needs it to get out of arc and maintain Range 2-3.

Heck, I could almost see it go to 1 point on *any* ship size and probably not be a problem. That'd be an experiment of a different kind.

Are tie bombers at I2 not comparable to the republics torrents? 4 more points for an extra hull & loss of evade action. Seems like a two ace & 2 bomber fodder list would work just as well as the republics jedi versions. Or am i mistaken?

16 minutes ago, kyten44 said:

Are tie bombers at I2 not comparable to the republics torrents? 4 more points for an extra hull & loss of evade action. Seems like a two ace & 2 bomber fodder list would work just as well as the republics jedi versions. Or am i mistaken?

It's been tried. 2 aces + 2 barrage bombers where popular for a short time after some good player placed well with it in a tournament, but I feel it was more down to the player than the ships. These days they been replaced by generic Inquisitors.

15 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

I always thought it was weird giving the interceptor the same hull and fighter. At the very least it should have 4 hull.

I can't say I mind that; it is essentially an over-gunned, over-engine TIE/ln Fighter.

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 10:38 PM, ficklegreendice said:

Generic Interceptors are just never going to be great because the ship just hinges WAY too much on going after the opponent.

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 11:00 PM, Punning Pundit said:

23 point Alphas with a talent slot would be. Well. I'm using it as an example because it would be way too good.

Agreed - to both, really. As noted, point and slot changes can 'fix' things; ultimately, you can't make a generic TIE interceptor feel like an ace without changing things we can't readily change.

A 'basic' initiative 1 TIE Interceptor is basically a +1 red die upgrade to a TIE fighter, with slightly improved blocking potential. +1 attack die on a 'cheap' pilot must have a point at which it's worthwhile. Yes, it makes the ship a glass cannon - and a lot of the time that bonus attack die is wasted because the ship will be arc-dodged or its paper-thin hull confettied before it engages. We can 'edit' the price on a pilot-by-pilot basis, that's not inherently a problem, especially with force multipliers like Admiral Sloane out there, but if you want the Alpha Squadron to work as a standalone ship, it needs to be proportionately a lot cheaper than it currently is.

15 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I actually did have JM5K fix in mind: give the Contracted Scout back the talent slot, and reduce the cost of Expert Handling from 2/4/6 to 1/2/3. With a slight tap down in price to the Jumps, that makes the Bumpmaster a lot more tempting than it's been. Maybe it still doesn't see much play, but it'd be a ship with a niche, with a role.

Though to be fair, if that happened I'd be making my toilet lid a staple in my lists with intimidation and feedback array. That's about the most useful it's going to get in 2.0 I think.

3 natural red dice has a minimum price breakpoint, look at what Zeb pays (the same price) for a worse ship than the Alpha. I don't know what kind of rebate they can put on the Alpha but it can't be alot. -1 point is already scary, not mainly for the 6x but for whatever shenanigans Empire will be able to pull off with Vader/Whisper/Soontir/G.Inqui +++ these guys. If feel that Empire is in such a good spot with solid crew & ship options, that it's making some 'decent' options look 'terrible' because they are outshone by the cream of the crop. JMHO

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

A 'basic' initiative 1 TIE Interceptor is basically a +1 red die upgrade to a TIE fighter, with slightly improved blocking potential. +1 attack die on a 'cheap' pilot must have a point at which it's worthwhile. Yes, it makes the ship a glass cannon - and a lot of the time that bonus attack die is wasted because the ship will be arc-dodged or its paper-thin hull confettied before it engages. We can 'edit' the price on a pilot-by-pilot basis, that's not inherently a problem, especially with force multipliers like Admiral Sloane out there, but if you want the Alpha Squadron to work as a standalone ship, it needs to be proportionately a lot cheaper than it currently is.

THANK YOU.

Eleven points is definitely far more than the difference is worth. Scourge and Mauler are fully 2 points cheaper than an Alpha, substantially more durable and just about as hard-hitting. Honestly, at I5, they probably get the 3-dice attack as often as the interceptor; but when they don't, they get a 2-die attack and the interceptor gets nothing. Add that they can Initiative-kill stuff and they have a talent slot. The comparison is crazy and goes strongly into the aces' favor, even though they're certainly not significantly too cheap.

6 hours ago, mcintma said:

3 natural red dice has a minimum price breakpoint, look at what Zeb pays (the same price) for a worse ship than the Alpha.

Agreed. And it shouldn't. That's why the attack shuttle is never played; there's no way it's paying for itself before it blows up, even with that crew slot, turret slot, talent slot, and shields that the Alpha and Sentinel are missing.

Also I disagree; at low initiative the attack shuttle is much, much more valuable.

24 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Also I disagree; at low initiative the attack shuttle is much, much more valuable.

At 34pts - Alpha has way better dial and actions (boost etc.), and roughly same health (+1 green vs. +1 shield). Zeb's ability is nice but I would say it pulls him equal to the Alpha, roughly. Totally different flying styles ofc, hard to compare bc you might want a great blocker (Alpha) or you might want a cheap Crew carrier (Zeb), and etc., so depends on the list.

I can see a 1 pt down on these ships happening , but I'd watch it very carefully. But I also feel the ini2 Khirazx at 38 is too efficient by a point or so.

Honestly, all the Jumpmaster needs is to be a small base. Then it could take R4...

1 hour ago, mcintma said:

At 34pts - Alpha has way better dial and actions (boost etc.), and roughly same health (+1 green vs. +1 shield). Zeb's ability is nice but I would say it pulls him equal to the Alpha, roughly. Totally different flying styles ofc, hard to compare bc you might want a great blocker (Alpha) or you might want a cheap Crew carrier (Zeb), and etc., so depends on the list.

I can see a 1 pt down on these ships happening , but I'd watch it very carefully. But I also feel the ini2 Khirazx at 38 is too efficient by a point or so.

The attack shuttle

- Doesn’t depend on RNG for survival

- is nearly crit immune

- Can take intimidation or crack

- Can double it’s coverage with a turret

- Can ferry Leia

- Is always I2+ so doesn’t get initiative-killed half as much

It’s better than the Striker except for maneuverability (talent, turret, and crew beat gunner and payload, 2 shields instead of 2 Hull, cancel crits first). And maneuverability means almost exactly nothing at Initiative 1. Maybe a little at I2 but only the AS gets that anyway.

Absent token-stacking abilities, health is almost always better than green dice, especially for tournament play.

3 health is too little for a blocker, and 34 is too much to pay for a blocker. I’m not saying the Alpha isn’t a potentially great blocker, but it’s definitely not up to the task at present.

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:28 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

And maneuverability means almost exactly nothing at Initiative 1.

That....is just wrong on a lot of levels. I'm happy to play devil's advocate on potential price reductions, but not being able to use manoeuvrability reactively is a long way from it meaning nothing.

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:28 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

3 health is too little for a blocker, and 34 is too much to pay for a blocker. I’m not saying the Alpha isn’t a potentially great blocker, but it’s definitely not up to the task at present.

Something with a 3-dice attack is a long way from just a blocker. I don't agree 3 health is too little for a blocker, by the way; an Academy Pilot is a perfectly effective blocker, and the Alpha Squadron (with the benefit of Autothrusters) is clearly better on a one-for-one basis as it can roll without giving up a token and boost at all. I'm not saying it's not too expensive or that it isn't up to the task of being a blocker, but it has the potential to be both blocker and 'firing line'

Comparing it to its closest counterpart, the Planetary Sentinel. I think the Sentinel is a pretty good ship - it's manoeuvrable and tough enough (which isn't the same as objectively 'tough'!) to form a firing line, especially a 40 point 5-ship-a-squad version with a shield upgrade. But it's actually a pretty lousy blocker because it's got a high minimum speed and a low range of speeds it can move at. The Alpha has a much wider range of straight-line speeds and can turn far better close-in.

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That....is just wrong on a lot of levels. I'm happy to play devil's advocate on potential price reductions, but not being able to use manoeuvrability reactively is a long way from it meaning nothing.

You're right. This was an excessive exaggeration. The alpha would be a fantastic blocker; it's just prohibitively expensive, variance-prone, and unable to intimidate (which is my favorite way to fly blockers).

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Something with a 3-dice attack is a long way from just a blocker. I don't agree 3 health is too little for a blocker, by the way; an Academy Pilot is a perfectly effective blocker, and the Alpha Squadron (with the benefit of Autothrusters) is clearly better on a one-for-one basis as it can roll without giving up a token and boost at all. I'm not saying it's not too expensive or that it isn't up to the task of being a blocker, but it has the potential to be both blocker and 'firing line'

Also true. If imperials had any way to mitigate the extreme dice variance, the issue wouldn't be so pronounced. Honestly I've wondered about using Kagi as Sloane's carrier for this purpose (to hand out evades or dodges at I4 and to eat locks), but it's hard to justify the cost. Also I dislike how much of a crutch Sloane is for Interceptor lists. And I agree that the Interceptor as "firing line" in addition to blocker is very lore-friendly and thematic. I've tried and tried to use them this way. It's just very difficult to get consistent results with so many dice involved and so few mods per ship.

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Comparing it to its closest counterpart, the Planetary Sentinel. I think the Sentinel is a pretty good ship - it's manoeuvrable and tough enough (which isn't the same as objectively 'tough'!) to form a firing line, especially a 40 point 5-ship-a-squad version with a shield upgrade. But it's actually a pretty lousy blocker because it's got a high minimum speed and a low range of speeds it can move at. The Alpha has a much wider range of straight-line speeds and can turn far better close-in.

Also true. And yet these also see very little play and even less success than the Alpha Interceptor, in spite of their handy device slot. The Alpha would certainly be a better blocker, especially with some kind of Sense or Informant in play. I so want them to be viable.

BcEh, the interceptor overlaps way too much with the Striker at lower initiative for my taste

Of the two, I can't see why we wouldn't celebrate the Striker more. Prepositioning shenanigans + action; no stress? That's pretty nifty!

The interceptor bring relegated to higher I is kind of a given. Best we can hope for, I think, is a more expensive Soontir and less expensive mid initiative pilots

8 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Of the two, I can't see why we wouldn't celebrate the Striker more. Prepositioning shenanigans + action; no stress? That's pretty nifty!

I agree - and do!

If I was making a squad of generics, I'd always reach for the striker. It feels more manoeuvrable - with its lovely big sweeping turns and flexible red moves, and ability to 'shimmy' with chained bank moves to sideslip obstacles - and 4 hits with agility 2 is less susceptible to being one-shotted. Plus it looks prettier in my opinion.

I can appreciate the desire to make the 'classic' of the TIE interceptor work too, though.

I would suggest actually that a bigger issue than the Alpha is probably the Saber; Saber Squadron is an iconic 'thing' to older X-wing fans, and whilst Soontir needs no particular help, the Saber also has issues; yes you could field 5 of them but aside from Initiative 4 you're gaining nothing over the Alpha Squadron pilots - but whilst Initiative 4 is 'top end' for non-limited pilots it's not actually good enough to reliably compete in a game where most pilots in "agile & fragile" ships generally come in at I5 or above.

Being able to take a 5-ship squad with Sabers and Soontir, or Turr (or both!), or 5 Sabers with some sort of elite talent, might make a big difference.

On 11/4/2019 at 6:12 PM, ficklegreendice said:

BcEh, the interceptor overlaps way too much with the Striker at lower initiative for my taste

Of the two, I can't see why we wouldn't celebrate the Striker more. Prepositioning shenanigans + action; no stress? That's pretty nifty!

The interceptor bring relegated to higher I is kind of a given. Best we can hope for, I think, is a more expensive Soontir and less expensive mid initiative pilots

Quote

I can appreciate the desire to make the 'classic' of the TIE interceptor work too, though.

This is why, to me at least; the Interceptor is iconic, even as a swarm ship. Battle of Endor, anyone? I've always thought that scene is amazing. But of course we never see anything remotely like that on the tabletop because no one wants to put 34-40 points into something that goes pop so easily.

I agree that the Striker and Interceptor can step on each others' toes a little bit. The striker does have a gunner slot and device, which could be a big deal once more of these are available. The interceptor probably ought to have a double-talent slot (or single at I1), just from looking at ships that set this trend and extrapolating.

But neither one is super good as-is. If I were to be very aggressive, I'd like to see how this would play out:

Alpha Squadron Pilot - 32, talent

Saber Squadron Pilot - 37, double-talent

Turr Phennir - 39, double-talent

Soontir Fel - 55, double-talent

Planetary Sentinel - 33

Black Squadron Scout - 36

Countdown - 43

Pure Sabaac - 44

Duchess - 46

Of course, that's a very big change to the way things are. Still, I don't think these changes are unwarranted. Nothing steps on the toes of anything else, really, and there's room for everyone to come out and play. Interceptor/Striker/Bomber/Aggressor/Fighter for filler becomes a very, very interesting choice.

At the outset, the devs had said that the Empire's faction identity was supposed to be "Swarmy ships with special tools for the occasion," in other words, they have ships that excel for each role. Unfortunately that isn't exactly the case right now, and they're mostly still a super-ace faction, with the recent addition of inquisitors en masse.

For grins, I'd also probably go:

Academy Pilot - 22

Obsidian Squadron Pilot - 23

Black Squadron Pilot - 25

Iden Versio - 36

Howlrunner - 45

Scimitar Squadron Pilot - 29

Gamma Squadron Ace - 30

Sienar Specialist - 25

Onyx Squadron Scout - 26

Baron of the Empire - 30

Inquisitor - 37

How much list diversity would that make for! It puts everything approximately on level with current competitive lists. Depending what FFG wanted to do, you could up all of these by about a point, but you'd also have to nerf a lot of top-to-mid-tier stuff that's out there, like Boba Fett, Tallie, Fenn and Teroch, Luke, etc.

And of course, I know it's all a pipe dream. The devs probably know better than me anyway.