Poor Brewer

Could've been the one guy you DIDN'T need Ensnare for

But the fact that he needs to hit to trigger his ability to is just unacceptable

23 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

Seems you have very selectively picked some mid ps ships.

We could easily do the same for I6: when was the last time you saw Midnight or Dengar kill it at a competitive event? 😆

The meta is really spread out with low Int swarms, mid ps beef/efficiency, and finally ace lists all doing well. I am enjoying 2.0 greatly. 😇

I suppose these really are fair charges. Perhaps the Initiative spread is more or less accurate in general.

I'd still like to see plenty of ( small!) tweaks to bring a lot more pilots into the meta and to push back some of the more dominant forces.

But I suppose that's the consensus of this thread anyway!

Long live X-Wing 2nd edition!

6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I would think Wedge has both. He has the potential to Boost as well as BR. T-65's are more maneuverable than they used to be while many other ships are now not as maneuverable as they used to be.

The only ship that can double reposition is an Interceptor....and Vader.

+ A-Wings of both varieties and Silencer and Tie/Ba i think

And anything with Afterburners and a barrel roll (though conditional)

28 minutes ago, ChahDresh said:

Well, a few, depending upon how you want to define your terms. (I don't know how you'd classify Arvel's ability, or Zerik's, or...) Again, though, what's your point? If your argument is that these pilots are being chosen for their abilities rather than their Ini, sure... but so what? They're still seeing plenty of play. Being at an Ini disadvantage hasn't driven them from tables as we saw with precious few exceptions in 1.0.

High Initiative alone isn't enough to get ships on the table... witness Chertek's pantsing of both Berwer and Sun Fac. Action economy alone isn't enough either (say hi, Turr Phenir!). Passive mods are insufficient, says Ezra (twice). The sum package of a ship, moderated by its cost, has to be considered case by case.

How marvelous.

My point is players are choosing high initiative which usually comes with an action economy/passive mods ability (Soontir and Jedi) or action economy (passive mods can be considered action economy.) Take the lambda shuttles. Sai is action economy right? Give a focus via co-ordinate and get a focus -- 2 actions for one. Same with Jendon. TLs out of range is usually a wasted action. So Jendon in a manner of speaking gives you free actions. Jendon and Oicunn and where Arvel fits let you break the rules of the game. Jendon changes the rules for range of taking a TL. Oicunn and Arvel break the rule for attacking at range zero.

And you wouldn't really take Oicunn or Arvel at I6 would you?

The B-wing pilots you put in there give you mods while stressed. That's action economy. Like ClassicalMoser points out Sinker and not Jag. Sinker is a passive mod for possibly more than one ship - Sinker Swarm.

So while the game has done away with the flow-chart combos the top lists are still high I and free actions.

11 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I suppose these really are fair charges. Perhaps the Initiative spread is more or less accurate in general.

I'd still like to see plenty of ( small!) tweaks to bring a lot more pilots into the meta and to push back some of the more dominant forces.

But I suppose that's the consensus of this thread anyway!

Long live X-Wing 2nd edition!

This is the overall conclusion, I think. There are far more mid-Ini pilots than high, so you can "what about..." all day, but as a SPECIES they're doing fine.

And when we're at the level of arguing for particular PILOTS to have better representation, that's an implicit declaration of victory for the overall balance of the game.

8 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

And you wouldn't really take Oicunn or Arvel at I6 would you?

...

So while the game has done away with the flow-chart combos the top lists are still high I and free actions.

Arvel at I6 would be ridiculous, are you kidding? He could reactively boost into anyone and shoot without getting shot. There's a reason he's I3.

I guess I just don't understand what your complaint is. There are aces lists, sure, but there are also swarms, efficiency lists, and debuffers. The top players are choosing lots of different things. I mean, if you define it broadly enough, you could say ALL pilot abilities are passive mods, action economy, or "breaking the rules". What do you think there's too much of, or not enough of?

1 hour ago, ChahDresh said:

This is the overall conclusion, I think. There are far more mid-Ini pilots than high, so you can "what about..." all day, but as a SPECIES they're doing fine.

And when we're at the level of arguing for particular PILOTS to have better representation, that's an implicit declaration of victory for the overall balance of the game.

Brief data review confirms this. Looked up the average adjustments my performance-based model gives for each initiative:

Not huge, but I also didn't look for the standard deviation. Surprised how much it's bringing I2s down by and I6s up by in general. I3-5 are mostly untouched, probably because the good ones balance out the bad ones

Edit: Methodology problems. Disregard the former data. This is how it gives the average of projected points cost changes:

So I5 is kinda strong. I6 is a bit strong. The rest are a little weak on average. But no overwhelming amounts here at all. I agree the meta's in a better place than ever before. Also note that my model goes by the average of what's played so has a slight tendency to power-creep itself. It doesn't have a strict baseline except the average of what's taken to OP events. Toying with the idea of benchmarking based on a 41-pt Blue Squadron Escort and a 23-pt Academy Pilot...

Edit 2: LOL I don't think anyone wants that. They're both doing too well right now. Using them as the baseline would give us the following changes:

No, I think we'll stick with my former numbers...

3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

And all the Aethersprite Jedi

And Silencers

And Awings

I'd stick to "ace" being relatied to initiative, as that's really the issue and has always been to some degree

Though currently, it's the LEAST issue it's ever been imo. Game so far in a neat place

I can say it is Init AND maneuverability. Just maneuverability is daft.

6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Bossk doesn't care if the target is stressed, only that he has crit results to swap one out for 2 hits. Or do you have BT-1 stapled to him so are merging their abilities in your head?

Haha, yeah, sorry. I dont build bossk without bt-1. Lol. What I meant was, reliable crit mechanic, like a fifth brother force user type of thing.

On 10/29/2019 at 7:48 PM, ChahDresh said:

Most-played ship by number of hulls: Vulture Droid (69 hulls across all lists)

Nice.

I guess we can turn off the "Fenn Rau is undercosted" alarm that's been ringing for a few months.

40% is a pretty outrageous cut percentage for an "overcosted" ship.

16 hours ago, ChahDresh said:

Arvel at I6 would be ridiculous, are you kidding? He could reactively boost into anyone and shoot without getting shot. There's a reason he's I3.

I guess I just don't understand what your complaint is. There are aces lists, sure, but there are also swarms, efficiency lists, and debuffers. The top players are choosing lots of different things. I mean, if you define it broadly enough, you could say ALL pilot abilities are passive mods, action economy, or "breaking the rules". What do you think there's too much of, or not enough of?

My bad on Arvel. Yes he would be ridiculous at higher initiative.

I guess what the numbers do not tell us is if those Empire lists made it despite not having Soontir. There are more choices as long as one of the choices is a high initiative with double reposition pilot. I am just asking if a census of ships is really telling the whole story. What about the combos?

The only TIE Interceptor to make it was Soontir. Does that say interceptors are viable or that just Soontir is viable? All those TIE Advances were Vader were they not? If you take Soontir do you have a better or worse chance with Vader? Is Soontir only good with some other bigger target? Top players are choosing lots of things except interceptors who are not Soontir.

You have choices as long as they are "these choices." I have not followed this stuff too closely in the past. I will take your word the choices are greater than before. Soontir and Vader are in the game again and that is good but it sure looks like if you want an interceptor in your list it has to be Soontir.

just because certain ships don't have much pilot choice doesn't mean the game OVERALL doesn't have much choice

The x1 and interceptor are just unfortunately designed to REALLY brown-nose high I pilots, thanks to dependency on target-locks and re-positioning respectively. Not really much you can do there, since their designs are already set in stone.

Ships like the RZ-2 show how it's supposed to be done

10 hours ago, FlyAndtheMighty said:

I guess we can turn off the "Fenn Rau is undercosted" alarm that's been ringing for a few months.

Been saying this for a year now.

Same goes for Boba Fett.

They're still extremely good, but now they're priced fairly.

It's more apparent now that there exist a few more competent wingmen for them.

On 10/30/2019 at 9:22 AM, Stagsquad13 said:

I was expecting to see some of the 5 SF swarms doing well. I guess there are some pieces in extended that reduce their impact in comparison to Hyperspace but that seems like it’s still a good squad. Kylo in place of two is fun as well and I saw a handful of those lists picking up 3 wins.

I'm not so surprised. I've flown the 5x Omega (fanatical+optics) quite a bit and I think it's a textbook low-floor low-ceiling list. I did very well with it locally, and MUCH less well at the XTC and Euros, where I felt the squad's limitations very keenly against top players. Different versions of the squad might do better (or other players might be able to unlock potential in the squad that I couldn't) but I felt that it's a solid squad but lacks all-round capability.

9 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

I'm not so surprised. I've flown the 5x Omega (fanatical+optics) quite a bit and I think it's a textbook low-floor low-ceiling list. I did very well with it locally, and MUCH less well at the XTC and Euros, where I felt the squad's limitations very keenly against top players. Different versions of the squad might do better (or other players might be able to unlock potential in the squad that I couldn't) but I felt that it's a solid squad but lacks all-round capability.

This is exactly how I feel about the theoretical possibility of the 6x Interceptor or Striker spam list. It's easy to fly because you just point and focus, but it's not actually good; it's too squishy and RNG-dependent, it bleeds out MoV every minute the game runs, it gets initiative-killed by everything, it has less offensive output than Howl Swarms or Vulture swarms, and so on.

Low skill floor, low skill ceiling. It certainly shouldn't be an argument against costing these generics appropriately.

On 10/30/2019 at 10:23 AM, ficklegreendice said:

Poor Brewer

Could've been the one guy you DIDN'T need Ensnare for

But the fact that he needs to hit to trigger his ability to is just unacceptable

Works for Whisper

6 minutes ago, wurms said:

Works for Whisper

Is Whisper Brewer?

Are their abilities even closely related outside the hit trigger?

No?

No.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Are their abilities even closely related outside the hit trigger?

Yes. Ship(s) get tokens after hitting. 😀 👍

12 minutes ago, wurms said:

Yes. Ship(s) get tokens after hitting. 😀 👍

Incorrect

Whisper gets a token (singular); Brewer's friendlies (NOT Brewer himself) may perform red calculate actions if they have a lock on the defender, the moon is half full, a perfect white calf is born of a speckled mother, and a wish is made upon at least three stars--but preferably more for good luck

3 hours ago, Dasharr said:

I'm not so surprised. I've flown the 5x Omega (fanatical+optics) quite a bit and I think it's a textbook low-floor low-ceiling list. I did very well with it locally, and MUCH less well at the XTC and Euros, where I felt the squad's limitations very keenly against top players. Different versions of the squad might do better (or other players might be able to unlock potential in the squad that I couldn't) but I felt that it's a solid squad but lacks all-round capability.

I think this is a fair assessment. I prefer the version with Kylo. You have an end game piece and something more interesting to fly

11 hours ago, Frimmel said:

My bad on Arvel. Yes he would be ridiculous at higher initiative.

I guess what the numbers do not tell us is if those Empire lists made it despite not having Soontir. There are more choices as long as one of the choices is a high initiative with double reposition pilot. I am just asking if a census of ships is really telling the whole story. What about the combos?

The only TIE Interceptor to make it was Soontir. Does that say interceptors are viable or that just Soontir is viable? All those TIE Advances were Vader were they not? If you take Soontir do you have a better or worse chance with Vader? Is Soontir only good with some other bigger target? Top players are choosing lots of things except interceptors who are not Soontir.

You have choices as long as they are "these choices." I have not followed this stuff too closely in the past. I will take your word the choices are greater than before. Soontir and Vader are in the game again and that is good but it sure looks like if you want an interceptor in your list it has to be Soontir.

To answer your questions: Among Empire players, five had lists with neither Soontir nor Vader, while three flew Soontir and Vader together. And there were a grand total of two X1s in the cut that weren't Vader. (Though they had Jendon to get around the target lock problem that Vader solves by being I6.)

As @ficklegreendice properly pointed out, the Interceptor in particular is a chariot for aces. We're talking about a ship too expensive and fragile to joust, so it *must* arc-dodge; its cost is driven by maneuverability, which can only be properly harnessed by high-I pilots. Put it all together and it's no surprise Soontir is in all the Interceptors. Honestly, though, that was true in 1.0 also. From basically wave 6 onwards, the only Interceptor pilot was Soontir, and *rarely* Carnor Jax (at PS8-- equivalent to I5).

Could Vader and Soontir cost another couple of points each? Yeah, probably. Are they a problem? It doesn't look like it.

17 hours ago, ChahDresh said:

Are they a problem? It doesn't look like it.

Only in the sense of crowding other stuff out, but again, that's more the fault of the other pilots on their chassis than their own costs. I'd personally put Soontir up 2 and Vader up 3, but before I did that I'd drop all other pilots on the chassis by 1-2 points.