I don’t feel like creating a new topic just for this, and you’ve evidently played quite a few games now—have you played around much with changing up the neutral cards in your deck? For example I put two Helicarriers and two Avengers Mansions in my Stark Leadership deck, to up the chances of getting more card draw/resource efficiency faster. I also put three Emergencies in there as it seems to me an objectively good card, especially with Stark’s great draw efficiency.

I’m particularly curious as to whether Haymaker seems like a good card for any decks (certain heroes/aspects). It seems like a bad idea for Captain Marvel, with her personal cards having plenty of better pure damage-dealers, and similarly for any aggression deck.

Any thoughts?

@SpiderMana
"I don’t feel like creating a new topic just for this, and you’ve evidently played quite a few games now—have you played around much with changing up the neutral cards in your deck? For example I put two Helicarriers and two Avengers Mansions in my Stark Leadership deck, to up the chances of getting more card draw/resource efficiency faster. I also put three Emergencies in there as it seems to me an objectively good card, especially with Stark’s great draw efficiency.

I’m particularly curious as to whether Haymaker seems like a good card for any decks (certain heroes/aspects). It seems like a bad idea for Captain Marvel, with her personal cards having plenty of better pure damage-dealers, and similarly for any aggression deck.

Any thoughts?"

I've speculated on this, but I have yet to actually alter the ratios of cards from those in the books (which are fairly simple: 1 of each basic, 2x of every aspect (1x uniques), and the hero cards.

I do not favor including multiple permanents that have play limits. Yes, you're increasing the probability of drawing one initially, or early by having a larger ratio in the deck, but once it's in play, the rest become duds that only serve as resources. And, there are some negative effects that force their discard, but most of those allow you to pick what you're going to do away with.

Having multiples of the Helicarrier and Avengers Mansion also slightly dilutes their value; i.e. if you add a mansion to the deck you have to draw one additional time each playthrough of the deck to achieve the same rate of draw value, which sets back the ability to reach the cycle cards (i.e. You are at risk of using your avenger's mansion to draw into an avenger's mansion that does nothing, instead of a Photonic Blast which would allow another card draw, or a Repulsor Blast which relies on energy icon cards in the deck to gain damage (Helicarrier is physical, Avenger's Mansion is mental).

So, in general, no, I would avoid including cards that become duds if a card is in play already (and that's something I'm trying to have happen).

I've used Haymaker to drop 3 hp enemies where another card would have been overkill. Otherwise, like most of the basics, it's likely there's something that's higher priority for getting into play/using, so it usually is a resource card early on. After my board has been built all the way up, I'd probably have a situation where I play it, since it has 2 cost and the deck at that point would generally consist of attack/thwart events and resource cards. Haymaker is also energy, so I'd auto-include it on Captain Marvel and Iron-Man, since both see a benefit there.

I agree that Emergency is quite good, especially in decks where there are few/no other reactive options for dealing with threat. The only downside being that it means losing a resource for the coming turn. It does also have an energy resource, so, like Haymaker, it's great for Captain Marvel/Iron Man.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

I do not favor including multiple permanents that have play limits. Yes, you're increasing the probability of drawing one initially, or early by having a larger ratio in the deck, but once it's in play, the rest become duds that only serve as resources. And, there are some negative effects that force their discard, but most of those allow you to pick what you're going to do away with

That’s fair. I didn’t put extras in Spider-Man’s deck when I played him alongside Iron Man today. Tony’s just got good enough draw power with Futurist (plus he can drop the extras when they come up with that ability) that I feel like it helps him more than it hurts him.

Just finished a playthrough of Expert Rhino II/III Bomb Scare using Protection She-Hulk; success but there was a fairly absurd turn 3 Masterplan that resulted in virtually a complete discard of the encounter deck for an early Acceleration token. The superhero law office or whatever it is called did a tremendous job reverting the gains from Rhino schemings.

Haymaker is good for a Captain Marvel deck. You want as much energy as possible to power up energy channel. Hypotonic blast also likes energy, and if your running leadership, so does Vision. Also it’s useful damage, when you need it.

10 hours ago, Daft Blazer said:

Haymaker is good for a Captain Marvel deck. You want as much energy as possible to power up energy channel. Hypotonic blast also likes energy, and if your running leadership, so does Vision. Also it’s useful damage, when you need it.

I've found Haymaker to be good for Black Panther as well. It's not the most efficient source of damage, but he is so event-damage starved that I usually throw it in to use when my Wakanda Forevers elude me.

Played a couple games of Spider-Man Aggression vs Expert Rhino 2-3 + Bomb Scare.

Its a hard row to hoe, because Spidey’s only THW tools are also dependent on minions, and the Aggression THW tools are as well; only problem is that Rhino doesn’t have a glut of minions. Spidey’s THW 1 means he can, at best, tread water against Rhino while in hero form; only to fall behind significantly when being forced to swap to alter ego to heal. The only way to play catch up in the absence of minions is to always choose to play allies, and thwart with them, even when it’s not terribly efficient.

I was actually happy when Shadow of the Past came up, because it enabled my thwarting 6 threat in one turn off the Vulture. After this I’m convinced Spidey will do best with basically anything but Aggression for solo. THW is just too important an aspect to have no on demand tools. She-Hulk’s stock has risen significantly from this.

This has also boosted my opinion of Cap even further; the ability to THW for up to 4 per round is likely to be incredibly good.

So I've finished playing with Black Panther solo through all combinations of each villain + each of the modular sets, in standard mode. This was a lot of fun. I've played Protection for the vast majority of these games, trying other aspects when facing MODOK, who to this day still absolutely terrifies me. I've beaten decks that include him only with Justice.

So for some stats. This made for 39 games, 15% of which my nemesis showed up, 20% of which I had to face my obligation. In none of those games had I to face both (I shudder at the thought). Without going into numbers, does this looks like the ratio you've seen with your own experience at this game so far?

I had a 70% overall win rate when not playing against The Doomsday Chair. But I won only 3 times in 19 games when playing that modular set (one win per villain -- I did not want to replay any of that!!).

Some thoughts:

• Rhino is fun. He is dumb, as he probably should be, but as several others have remarked in other threads, he can surprise you with an insta-win by scheming a bit more than you accounted for, sometimes shooting up from 1 or 2 threat to 7 instantly. This risk makes him less one-sided than he looks like. You have to manage that when playing Protection, because in that case you normally aim for a longer game. Shorter, more violent bouts of course make him much easier.
• I prefer playing against Ultron rather than against Klaw. The drones are a pain, but with Black Panther it is relatively easy to deal with them -- either with retaliate, or the daggers. Also, in a lucky game where your deck falls into place quickly, Ultron can go down faster than the cumulative mayhem he can cause may stop your momentum. But with Klaw, the additional boost card feels to me like a much bigger, and constantly more painful, wrench thrown at my face. Boost abilities come into play faster, ending a turn on Alter-Ego is a lot more dangerous. Overall, Klaw certainly felt much more unpleasant.
• Advance is one of the scariest encounter card. I've lost several tight games where I gambled that I would win if I survive the next encounter, only to reveal this card. Even though I lost, losing to Red Skull's smirk like that makes me laugh every time. That art is just so perfect.
• I just hate MODOK so, so much. His Retaliate 2 is crippling.
• Black Panther is not an easy hero to master, but I've come to appreciate his versatility very, very much. He takes some time setting up, and choosing the right upgrade during setup is key to his success. But with any game that has an early Helicarrier or Mansion -- making your Wakanda Forevers essentially free -- you know things will get fun soon!

I'll take a break now from all this sweating and try the other heroes (She-Hulk is next in line) against an easy Rhino, just to have something easy to beat up for a while. 😂

Some interesting notes, there.

-I definitely agree Ultron is less annoying to play against than Klaw.

-I didn’t actually have too much trouble against Modok, the couple times I’ve faced him? He himself has only come up maybe twice, and I tried to do indirect damage or do a lot at once to avoid him retaliating more than once.

I tried Panther with Leadership today, against Expert Rhino + Legions of Hydra, and I lost fairly quickly every time. Starting with Breakin’ and Takin’ is rough, and two games I failed to take it down before it drew me an extra card. The third game I got an Ally out and managed to thwart it, but I still managed to get hit with Legions of Hydra pretty quickly.

Saw that side scheme I think 5 times in 3 games? It’s just absolutely disgusting, and it pops up even more in a smaller deck like Rhino’s. There’s not much to do against it with that solo build 🤷‍♂️

2 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

I tried Panther with Leadership today, against Expert Rhino + Legions of Hydra, and I lost fairly quickly every time. Starting with Breakin’ and Takin’ is rough, and two games I failed to take it down before it drew me an extra card. The third game I got an Ally out and managed to thwart it, but I still managed to get hit with Legions of Hydra pretty quickly.

I'm not sure if it's that I haven't played with BP enough to know how to get him set up or that he just doesn't gel well with leadership, but I tried that same combination and even hard mulliganed for Hawkeye to control minions (which kept showing up in force) and I still ended up overwhelmed by either minions or threat. For now She-Hulk and Iron Man are my go-to heroes. When Cap comes out, he'll jump to the top of the list. Doctor Strange will also join that list (I'm assuming he'll have a deck at some point - hopefully soon).

3 hours ago, maniakmedic said:

I'm not sure if it's that I haven't played with BP enough to know how to get him set up or that he just doesn't gel well with leadership, but I tried that same combination and even hard mulliganed for Hawkeye to control minions (which kept showing up in force) and I still ended up overwhelmed by either minions or threat. For now She-Hulk and Iron Man are my go-to heroes. When Cap comes out, he'll jump to the top of the list. Doctor Strange will also join that list (I'm assuming he'll have a deck at some point - hopefully soon).

It’s definitely not that combo - I consider Black Panther Leadership one of the strongest and most consistent builds out of the Core set. One of the few I’ve beaten Expert Ultron with.

6 minutes ago, FearLord said:

It’s definitely not that combo - I consider Black Panther Leadership one of the strongest and most consistent builds out of the Core set. One of the few I’ve beaten Expert Ultron with.

I’d be curious to hear your results vs Expert Rhino with Legions of Hydra. If it’s just a straight-up bad matchup or maybe I need to start with Tactical Genius and hard mulligan to try starting with a Wakanda Forever? Idk man but it didn’t end well for me.

33 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I’d be curious to hear your results vs Expert Rhino with Legions of Hydra. If it’s just a straight-up bad matchup or maybe I need to start with Tactical Genius and hard mulligan to try starting with a Wakanda Forever? Idk man but it didn’t end well for me.

I haven’t run him into that specific scenario yet, but I’ll give it a try tonight and give you my thoughts!

I will say though before playing it, that yes starting with Tactical Supremacy is likely a way I would tackle it, but equally starting with an Ally should mean that you can get rid of Breaking and Taking before the first round as well. I’d definitely mulligan aggressively.

5 hours ago, FearLord said:

It’s definitely not that combo - I consider Black Panther Leadership one of the strongest and most consistent builds out of the Core set. One of the few I’ve beaten Expert Ultron with.

It is interesting to compare our own views and experience. I've tried this pairing twice and I hated it. I do not like playing this aspect solo at all and though I do admit I have a small sample size, my experience frankly soured me on Leadership. This aspect relies too much on a guaranteed ally during setup, but you never have such guarantee. I'm just speaking from my personal point of view here, but anytime anyone needs to mulligan aggressively for anything means that this is just an unreliable game plan, if not a bad one (I extend this view to other card games as well). You might get unlucky, or at other times the cost of mulliganing might actually exceed the result. Especially when you need to build up your board at the same time (like the Panther suit).

Sure, cards you won't play become resources in this game, but there is a difference between 'won't play' and 'can't play'. With any other aspect, I feel I always have a choice. My hand can adapt, and after a particularly harsh encounter phase I might change my course of action from, say, doing damage, to some aspect cards that help me right now (thwart, heal, etc.). But in any situation I have no allies -- didn't draw, lost them, used them to save my own butt, etc. -- most of my leadership cards become dead, and deader for any copy of Make the Call that has already been played or discarded. Drawing copies of that card shortly after emptying my deck and reshuffling is a painful streak of self-inflicted bad luck that I do not believe can happen with the other aspects.

I could add other things. The Power Of Leadership is a lot more inefficient than the other aspect's equivalents -- the high costed cards are all unique copies (the allies) or a situational event (Lead from the Front). We only got 1 more in-aspect Ally card than the other aspects. This strikes me as not being significant enough.

I do know that when Leadership works, oh boy it does work wonders. But to me there is very little that feels consistent with the aspect out of the Core set. You need too many things to happen in the right order. You need a consistent draw engine. And you do not have other players to pick up the slack when things don't fall in line for you. And in solo play, getting behind early can spell your doom. 😥

ADDED: Thinking about it, I would love cards that make all allies less expensive (so as to include the neutral ones) and/or a larger choice of inexpensive but useful allies (like Maria Hill, who is my favorite).

Leadership is the strongest aspect in the core by some margin in my opinion - especially solo where only really Leadership and Justice are actually viable against Expert level villains.

I don’t think you need an ally in your opening hand to make Leadership work, although you are correct that lots of Leadership cards are dead without allies. I aggressively mulligan in every game of Marvel Champions. If there is zero chance of me wanting to play it, chances are I will throw it away. This gives you more chance to see cards you do want to play and / or resources to help you play them more efficiently. I consider Power if Leadership one of the better ‘power of’ cards, as you can both use it on expensive Allies and on Those same Leadership allies when playing make the call.

With Expert Rhino, I always try to set things up so I can remove his side scheme turn 1 if possible, turn 2 if not. This is the most important thing when stabilising. I generally try and get as much set up done on the first pass through my deck as possible, and then once set up Panther’s excellent economy means he can easily pay for allies that other might struggle with, so he can usually maintain a strong enough board to clear things for him.

1 hour ago, Ascarel said:

You need a consistent draw engine.

Thinking about it, I would love cards that make all allies less expensive

1) Tony Stark

2) Steve Rodgers

I certainly think more Allies will be a boon to Leadership—eventually you’ll have to figure out where they start clogging your hand rather than being a boon, though.

I’m really interested to see how a double-leadership pairing works, particularly with Stark and Cap, for the aforementioned reasons. I’ll probably end up using placeholders so both decks can use 3x Make The Call and Get Ready for maximum jank For that matter, duplicates of some key Allies so they can be in both decks is another thing I’d like to try out.

Dangit I’m still going to buy a second core set eventually aren’t I? 😂

I'll add a third point of view: I strongly play into my hero cards and usually almost universally only rely on my aspect cards when I have the resources for them! 😅

4 hours ago, FearLord said:

Leadership is the strongest aspect in the core by some margin in my opinion - especially solo where only really Leadership and Justice are actually viable against Expert level villains.

I've trounced expert Rhino+Legions of Hydra playing solo on several occasions using Protection (Spidey and Black Panther). I didn't find it particularly easier or harder than using Leadership or Justice.

Admittedly I haven't moved on to either Klaw or Ultron expert level yet using Protection.

16 minutes ago, Janaka said:

I've trounced expert Rhino+Legions of Hydra playing solo on several occasions using Protection (Spidey and Black Panther). I didn't find it particularly easier or harder than using Leadership or Justice.

Admittedly I haven't moved on to either Klaw or Ultron expert level yet using Protection.

I’m more talking about Klaw and Ultron here. I’ve beaten Rhino on expert with all Aspects, but i don’t think it’s very easy to go against the others (although I am planning to try Protection She-Hulk vs Klaw as I’ve been enjoying that deck recently).

12 hours ago, FearLord said:

I haven’t run him into that specific scenario yet, but I’ll give it a try tonight and give you my thoughts!

Okay, just finished. Won convincingly. After an Aggressive mulligan I was able to play Nick Fury and Avengers Mansion turn 1 as well as Vibranium Suit and finished the turn holding Panther Claws. Panther and Fury both Thwart and Breaking and Taking is gone turn 1! After that, it’s just a case of blocking with either Panther or an Ally if I have one (Maria Hill can do a lot of work in this deck because she’s cheap to keep playing from Discard).

I used Vibranium Suit as my last action on all but one Wakanda forever (the last one) which let me keep my health up. One dicey moment with Charge in play, but I was able to heal and defend it. I was lucky in that I didn’t get Madame Hydra or Legions of Hydra - I did get a couple of the soldiers though as well as Kill Monger joining in.

Just did several playthroughs of Black Panther Protection vs Rhino (basic I/II + Bomb scare into Expert II/III + Bomb Scare, then swapping in Masters of Evil).

I didn’t encounter any trouble, until the MoE playthrough, when I had back to back the MoE scheme, right into Shadows of the past, which put me in the untenable position of being too close to the 7 cap, and having insufficient health to stay in Hero form. Apart from that perfect storm, the next attempt went swimmingly.

I may experiment with running two+ heroes after this, because the margins on one hero threat are truly unforgiving comparatively.

23 hours ago, FearLord said:

I consider Power if Leadership one of the better ‘power of’ cards, as you can both use it on expensive Allies and on Those same Leadership allies when playing make the call.

Has Power of Leadership been ruled to work with Make the Call?

1 hour ago, Palpster said:

Has Power of Leadership been ruled to work with Make the Call?

Yes, if you’re using it on a Leadership Ally.

Did Black Panther Protection vs Rhino Expert II/III + Legions of Hydra;

I really like that Rhino comes with some Hydra Mercenaries for potential synergy on this, although that scenario never actually came up. Fortunately(?) for me, the second legion card hit before I had finished Madame Hydra off, so I only had to chew through her 6 hp one time. More certainly fortunate, I had sufficient board presence and a full set of deployed allies to thwart my way through and clear to the other side.

Madame Hydra (and presumably Modok will be as well) is quite dangerous on Rhino’s scheme, effectively reducing the threat cap to 5(!) if you have to switch over to alter-ego mode. I think this significantly raises the value of both allies (to THW and absorb hits) and of the Medical Team to help keep BP in hero mode. Didn’t see Killmonger thanks to Black Widow cycling Shadow from the Past, so I didn’t have to deal with the true nightmare scenario of: Nemesis + Module + Stage III.

Next stop, Modok!