51 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I play swarms and often I'm done picking my dials before my opponent with 3 ships is done.

I discovered this years ago in 1st ed and argued this point for years on these message boards. You don't know how happy I am to see someone else say this.

^ I mean, yeah, if you look at my usual setup, the amount of space in a vulture droid formation is pretty ridiculous and is occupies a huge footprint on the table with enough bodies/arcs to catch most vectors. Stage 1 of flying a swarm is just learning how it flies in formation, stage 2 is learning when and how to break formation. Because Vultures don't have a linchpin that they all have to be at range 1 of, they can actually space our really efficiently as long as they're not alone.

41 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think it's why I like Heavy Swarms and TIE/fo (who have just enough to stand on their own two feet) rather than swarms where everyone's tied to a range 1 'choke chain' to Iden Versio/Howlrunner/Networked Calculation wingdroids/whatever.

What is your First Order swarm? I haven't touched mine in ages.

36 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Because Vultures don't have a linchpin that they all have to be at range 1 of, they can actually space our really efficiently as long as they're not alone.

I have found that even being able to take a linchpin doesn't mean you should. I am not sold on the Iden + Howlrunner list that many people use. I think you give up too much for them (points and tactics).

It is also when NOT to fly in more than just a loose formation. I remember playing at Krayt Cup and my Captain set me up against a Resistance bomber with Trajectory Simulator and some A-wings. They were eager to take it thinking I would fly in formation. I won with only taking a single point of damage from Bombs. My opponent said he had never seen Tie Fighters flown like that.

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

What is your First Order swarm? I haven't touched mine in ages.

I have found that even being able to take a linchpin doesn't mean you should. I am not sold on the Iden + Howlrunner list that many people use. I think you give up too much for them (points and tactics).

It is also when NOT to fly in more than just a loose formation. I remember playing at Krayt Cup and my Captain set me up against a Resistance bomber with Trajectory Simulator and some A-wings. They were eager to take it thinking I would fly in formation. I won with only taking a single point of damage from Bombs. My opponent said he had never seen Tie Fighters flown like that.

Yeah, my last game against trajectory sims, I took 0 bomb damage. I split the droids into two formations of four, went in opposite directions, varied speed and met in the middle.

5 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Yeah, my last game against trajectory sims, I took 0 bomb damage. I split the droids into two formations of four, went in opposite directions, varied speed and met in the middle.

I split my guys up into two very loose groups and had Vader spend a few turns going deep and the up from the rear.

I'm a big blocker and spent turns sending my Ties in one or two at a time to block the Bomber. I just took pot shots with the Ties for a few turns and slowly burned it down. Vader came in late to finish the A-wings.

Blocking is probably my main strategy. I like a loose spread in front of the enemy so they basically have zero place to land. They end up bumping all the way to the front of the formation with no actions. Much easier to take out that way.

On 10/27/2019 at 10:53 AM, MasterShake2 said:

You seem to think time is the problem, but even when a CIS swarm is going to time, it usually has the upper hand and would've won anyways. My last 3 games with CIS haven't gone more than 75 minutes total (then again, I am a fast player)

The concern about 19pt droids being a bit much, I sympathize with, I thought they were fine, if unspectacular at 20pts each. Struts, Shells, Discord Missiles, Sear and Tactical Relays are kind of the icing on the cake of a ship that already worked as there appears to be no definitively "wrong" way to play a CIS swarm based on results (the Trade Federation Drone and Sear have been at the top of Metawing for more than a month now and Discord Missiles, TA-175 and Struts have been in the top 10 upgrades pretty consistently which is pretty whacky considering all 3 are only available for a swarm).

All that being said, who else is running 7-8 ship lists? CIS appears to be the only faction working in this design space, so I suspect that as long as it's not game breaking, the devs are okay with it being powerful (especially given how few other archetypes are currently available to the faction). I do expect to see Sear going up with the next update and possibly the I1's (maybe even struts as well) although Kracken and TA-175 should definitely swap point costs.

That last point particularly is important - CIS are the only faction capable of working in 7 - 8 ship swarms, and that is part of their design identity. That means they have the limitation of being very quick to die with bad rolls, and will require more careful thought from their player to avoid mass bumps. I play CIS, and I find that larger swarms are actually quicker to lose ships, since the movement options quite often lead to at least two or three of the ships losing their actions. CIS without its calculates is much more "shooting fish in a barrel" for a good player.

14 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Man, if you think struts just allow ships to ignore obstacles you're definitely reading them wrong

Struts take a lot of time to internalize and appreciate, because there is A LOT of text

But, here's the long and short:

1.) "Overlap" and "move through" are separate things in 2nd edition (Excellent point!)

You can't fly through stuff like you're Dash or even a Mining Tie, you have to physically land on the obstacle specifically while executing a maneuver to trigger struts

And because it's "while you execute a maneuver," a strutted ship can be thrown onto a rock via tractor and still suffer ALL the effects of it (unless, obviously, it was already parked on a rock to begin with)

This also means they can't roll onto a rock and land like some kinda robotic gymnast. This, in turn, makes struts pretty dang predictable

2.) Movement is obviously limited, but also surprisingly limited

Landed droids can only pivot 90-degrees or laze off an obstacle with a 2-straight. The ONLY exception is if they barrel-roll off the obstacle before they reveal their dial (since adv. sensors are super expensive, they'll have to do this a turn in advance)

What does this mean ito gameplay? Getting behind them is sad, SAD times for the strutted ship

This is what I've come to appreciate after actually playing a lot of struts. They're good **** fun! They're also VERY easily counter-played if you're not careful, unless the opponent just has no idea how they work or what their limitations are (Love this!)

Great analysis on struts @ficklegreendice ! I make extensive use of my Struts, and these points are all true. I'd add to them, though:

1) If you misjudge your maneuver to attempt to land on a rock, you don't get to use your Struts. You get to lose your action and suffer potential damage, which Vultures can't take a lot of. It makes them just that much weaker.

2) Although it's never happened to me, it's possible that you simply can't land on a rock because it's "full" The Struts limit rock hopping to two ships at most for any given obstacle.

3) Planning out which ships can use the struts most effectively for positioning takes work. You've got to both anticipate opponents' movements and carefully plan your own.

Personally, I love the capability CIS has with Struts, and I find I miss them when I'm not using them, but they do require careful engagement.

Overall, I would say that 7 - 8 ship swarms do have some power, but they also have a lot of options for counterplay as the posters to this thread have shown. I don't have the ship capacity to run an 8-ship Vulture swarm, so my squads tend to be more lightly armed, but tougher. I'm currently running a 3-Hyena, 3-Vulture Sear Swarm, and there's simply not enough room to outfit all the ships with ESC or any secondary munitions. At most, one will get an upgrade to make it hit slightly harder. The upside is that I do get three tougher swarm ships that are more likely to draw fire.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

What is your First Order swarm? I haven't touched mine in ages.

At 7 ships, Epsilon Squadron (more for the fun than anything) - 5 Cadets, "Null", and "Muse" with Fanatical and Pattern Analyser.

6 Ships with a mix of Tech Upgrades and named pilots is better, though, and you can build that pretty much as you like. There's a lot to be said for six Zetas with Pattern Analyser, though; it's kind of shocking how irritating being able to segnor pretty much at will with those things can be.

Personally I think 7-8 ships swarms are a non issue. CIS swarms function differently than the imperial ones and that can make them frustrating.

My biggest issue with them is the frequency I get to fly against them. I need more reps to get better and in my area their aren't a lot of opportunities to go up against it.

23 hours ago, Octarine-08 said:

Versus 7-8 ship swarms, you have 5-6 turns, hard stop. Not turns of engagement, just 5-6 turns.

Be on the ball with how you approach it. You've got to snipe those points to avoid the final salvo in that time.

You also have to actively help your opponent move their stuff as efficiently as possible. The physical aspect is real with the mass of ships.

And finally, you have to be vigilant for people who are exaggerating that aspect to slow play. If on the first turn they take way longer than they should, call the judge over to watch. At higher level events they should have their crap together.

This REALLY bothers me that swarm players do this. I have been flying swarms for years and I never play slowly. In fact, people have thanked me for being efficient when moving all my ships. If you can't execute your maneuvers almost as quickly as your opponents, you shouldn't be playing swarms. The mere idea of slow playing on purpose irks me to no end.

I find it very difficult to slowplay CiS because there's always something to do!

My play slows down when I'm trying to think my way out of a no-win scenario. But Drones, just by virtue of networked calc, can affect the game in myriad ways and give you options galore to explore (roborhyme)

Also, ESCs Reload +/- probe lock let me feel alright about disengaging to reacquire resources

Idk, CiS just "falls into place" more easily than other factions have. They're the only faction I could ever play a swarm of without getting bored.

Only the Arc and its lovely telwo-arc self has come close to feeling so intuitive and flexible

Per worlds data, CIS finishes 54.2% of their games which is in the middle (3 factions with lower numbers and 3 with higher). They're also disadvantaged in any game where they don't finish by about 6% in terms of win rate and still have the highest overall win rate. There were only a handful of builds at worlds dipping below 6 ships and most were in the 7-8 category, so it's safe to assume that you're no more likely to go to time against CIS than any other list in the game.

Thx for the many replies, some really good diagrams put up, and hopefully can get some games in on the net against them ,as we have 0 local players playing them.

Thx again guys

Just now, Mcpolle said:

Thx for the many replies, some really good diagrams put up, and hopefully can get some games in on the net against them ,as we have 0 local players playing them.

Thx again guys

That’s a huge point of emphasis to not just dealing with a swarm but honestly any list. If you’re not used to seeing or playing against high ship counts even semi regularly you end up in a tough spot. Just as if you never see certain types of list they can do well at a tournament simply due to shock value and not being ready for it.

I'd recommend just playing them

Like, not even for learning...just for **** fun

Only issue with buying into CiS is that the sexy probe droids can only be found in the Sith Infiltrator. For casual games, ofc, you could just buy a cheap but well made pair of Probe Droid Tokens and then proxy the card.

If you get over that issue but don't want to just drive into all vultures, all the time, I've been having a LOT of fun with the servants of strife ships + a vulture + two hyenas. It's still a very respectable six ship count and gives you plenty of variety as the second Hyena can be customized into a stationary Ordnance platform or the ever-entertaining 404.

The first Hyenas will be carrying the probes 😛

31 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I'd recommend just playing them

Like, not even for learning...just for **** fun

Only issue with buying into CiS is that the sexy probe droids can only be found in the Sith Infiltrator. For casual games, ofc, you could just buy a cheap but well made pair of Probe Droid Tokens and then proxy the card.

If you get over that issue but don't want to just drive into all vultures, all the time, I've been having a LOT of fun with the servants of strife ships + a vulture + two hyenas. It's still a very respectable six ship count and gives you plenty of variety as the second Hyena can be customized into a stationary Ordnance platform or the ever-entertaining 404.

The first Hyenas will be carrying the probes 😛

Had 404 with 2 hp and a Fuel Leak. I YOLOed and Advanced Proton Torpedo into L'ulo, rolled 3 hits and 3 crits and one-shotted him. "From ****'s heart, I stab at thee!"

5 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Had 404 with 2 hp and a Fuel Leak. I YOLOed and Advanced Proton Torpedo into L'ulo, rolled 3 hits and 3 crits and one-shotted him. "From ****'s heart, I stab at thee!"

R.I.P Rey

god I love this little droid. One might think that Vultures are the posterbots of expend ability. But no, 404 takes it to a greater; far more glorious degree.

Swarms also tend to be much more taxing to fly, as the controlling player has to account for the final positions of eight ships. There's a level of mental endurance to swarm play that just does not exist with 2-3 ship lists.

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

R.I.P Rey

god I love this little droid. One might think that Vultures are the posterbots of dependability. But no, 404 takes it to a greater; far more glorious degree.

ERROR- Ship not found

Death approaching

Launch preservation.exe

ERROR - ****s to give not found

11 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Swarms also tend to be much more taxing to fly, as the controlling player has to account for the final positions of eight ships. There's a level of mental endurance to swarm play that just does not exist with 2-3 ship lists.

Having flown both, this simply isn’t true. The 2-3 ship player is doing Seat-of-pants flying where one mistake is their downfall. The only pressure on a swarm player is not bumping. Sure it’s fatigueing 6 games in, but what list isn’t?

12 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Swarms also tend to be much more taxing to fly, as the controlling player has to account for the final positions of eight ships. There's a level of mental endurance to swarm play that just does not exist with 2-3 ship lists.

I agree. Played a 8-ship list in my last big tourney and now I'm willing to go only up to 6 ships. And boy, that's quite more un-stressful!

2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

Having flown both, this simply isn’t true. The 2-3 ship player is doing Seat-of-pants flying where one mistake is their downfall. The only pressure on a swarm player is not bumping. Sure it’s fatigueing 6 games in, but what list isn’t?

@PhantomFO Swarms also tend to be much more taxing to fly, as the controlling player has to account for the final positions of eight ships. There's a level of mental endurance to swarm play that just does not exist with 2-3 ship lists..

so Estarriol and PhantomFO are not either right or wrong but not really right either

As a swarm player (CIS) you are most likely moving first so for the most part you should not be bumping. You know where the opposing players ships are. you have your own dials know your moves so unless you intentionally self bump you should not be bumping either. set up your ships right plan your moves and fly like the genius you are and bumping is no problem. now if you want to set up blocks and kill boxes for double repo aces now you can get into some mental taxing, however in that match up the aces have to come to you so let them set there own trap, the swarm player should be able to control pace of play and engagement area easily.

As far as the mental tax the 2-3 ship list playing vs the swarm has to expend more mental energy as the have to try to anticipate where 7-8 ships will be to avoid being blocked and trapped as well as having to figure out how to engage without getting key elements dusted in the first real engagement and the following round.

I recently played against a 4 u-wing list with a CIS swarm of seven you would think that the u-wings would be able to block lanes and control my movement not one of my ships got blocked nor did I intentionally or accidentally self bump. I did sacrifice one droid in one round to block the u-wing,s one droid=4 u-wing bump pile up = sad u-wings when the shells and protons fly. in the end 3 and a half u-wings died vs 2 dead Vultures and half a Hyena.

The 7-8 swarm lists can be beat quite easily if you know what you are doing and how to engage the are a problem but as with all problems there are solutions. Angle of attack and range control 3 aces can nuke ini kill 3 droids per round and not have to trade ship/s after one rnd of this the droid list is not so impressive after two rnds of this even if at that point you traded a ship it is all over for the droids.

great flying positioning and the use of a well placed (non traj sim) proton bomb can wreck a swarm handily. here you go I am handing out crits today pick a card, read it and weep. The crit deck is very unforgiving especially against droid swarms.

All I can say is think of you next move during your current move, fly better, have a plan and be able to adapt. If all else fails play some chess to practice thinking ahead it helps.

Live long and ......... my the force be with you.

I have a question since the Epic stuff is coming out:

How do people feel if someone used the Wing tool in a tournament for when their ships all moved the same speed forward?

I don't mean the full rules of wing leader does his crazy stuff and then you move the others. I mean you have a formation of ships lined up perfectly and they all go 3 forward. It COULD save time for moving them all and that is something people hate about Swarm lists. Only usable in the first round or two, but possible to save a bit of time.

35 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I have a question since the Epic stuff is coming out:

How do people feel if someone used the Wing tool in a tournament for when their ships all moved the same speed forward?

I don't mean the full rules of wing leader does his crazy stuff and then you move the others. I mean you have a formation of ships lined up perfectly and they all go 3 forward. It COULD save time for moving them all and that is something people hate about Swarm lists. Only usable in the first round or two, but possible to save a bit of time.

I think that would be fine but who knows?

Still if a player set up in such a way that the movement tool wouldn't work to move the whole list in that way they would still have to move the swarm ships individually. Example I have an opening set up that has 3 ships at the max rng one set up facing towards the left board edge. another 4 ships facing the right board edge first move is two forward for all ships. second move is two forward for all ships now they are lined up in the classic block albeit facing different directions and just off center from the middle of the table. then they all do hard ones and are in a perfect block formation facing the opposing players board edge.

your suggestion is good but only if the swarm player uses classic formations and tactics.

The set up I use sometimes (above) allows for me to control where and when I want to engage to a degree dependent on opposing players actions. I do also have to say and this goes for any list both the where and WHEN you want to engage are very important and a significant part of play it is called tactics and or strategy. I do not advocate slow play any and all players should move ships at an orderly pace, however the opposing player should also not be trying to rush the other player for whatever reasons to gain an advantage for themselves.

Aces have the advantage of being aces, mid range ships can have an advantage in what they bring to the table upgrades, abilities, chassis, while swarms tend to be liable to being ini killed, however they have an advantage if taken or allowed to be taken, in where and WHEN they want to engage, as well as in numbers.

Live long and ......... may the force be with you.

Is no one using struts with their CIS? I flew a 7 swarm at worlds with struts and would park at least 4 droids on rocks for much of the game. 7 dials becomes 3 real quick in most games.

12 minutes ago, NervousSam said:

Is no one using struts with their CIS? I flew a 7 swarm at worlds with struts and would park at least 4 droids on rocks for much of the game. 7 dials becomes 3 real quick in most games.

Struts are great for some swarm lists and I use them sometimes but not en-mass 2-3 will do the trick. As for not bringing massed struts this allows for other builds and or upgrades or you can have a bid. I know there is a lot of strife with point fortresses and bid war but if I play a mirror match per see and win the bid because I left off 2 points by not bringing 2 struts I get to chose who is first player so I would have an advantage of choice. Moving last at I1 is a unique and cool experience.