56 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It isn't a double tax. You get something for a bid a better-chance-at-moving-last upgrade. Moving last is valuable. (Being able to move your ships that want to move first first is valuable.) You leave points off the list because the chance of moving at your choice is more valuable than more upgrades. You get something for those points while not risking giving them to your opponent if the match goes to time. That's not how upgrades should work.

Reposition actions are better when you move last right? So a bid is a better-chance-at-moving-last upgrade to your reposition actions.

Yes it is.

I pay more points for Soontir Fell over Turr Phennir because he is Initiative 6 and Turr Phennir is Initiative 4.

They have the same chassis and Turr has a better ability. But cost 9 point less because he doesn't move neither shoot after a bunch of enemy pilots.

The bid only matters against pilots of the same Initiative. If the Ace of your choice is Turr Phennir you don't need a bid. If you play against low Initiative pilots, you don't need a bid.

When you bid hard with Soontir Fel, you are removing tools from your squad because you don't know who will be your enemy. If you don't play against another 6s with less bid, you have wasted points. I know the bid war exists, but it is for Ace players.

The point fortress is another issue and is not all about reposition abilities and high Initiative pilots. It is more about defensive capacity (Force, High Health, Regeneration), and Soontir Fel isn't too good at this one. The mobility helps, of course, but the autothrusters is not enough.

I don't think the high Initiative and the point fortress are the same problem (Kylo, for example, is a 5). Actually, I don't see a problem here.

Look at Worlds. Almost every archetype was in the cut. There are a lot of options and a lot of counters.

The game is healthy. A bad matchup or a NPE in one or two games don't change that.

There isn't a list with good pairings against everything in the meta. If a full Aces list have problems against swarm, is fine. I said it early in this thread.

The bid isn't an upgrade. It is a downgrade to counter one or two archetypes.

14 hours ago, S4ul0 said:

The bid isn't an upgrade. It is a downgrade to counter one or two archetypes.

You're trying to have it both ways. You have to make choices in your list. You can put in better-chance-to-move-at-your-choice upgrades i.e. a bid or upgrades on cards. Either way you are making a choice as to what you think will give you a better chance to win over a series of matches. You don't get to make a better-chance-to-move-at-your-choice decision and call that a disadvantage.

I can take advanced proton torpedoes or a better-chance-to-move-at-my-choice. I can't have both and I don't get to call a better-chance-to-move-at-my-choice a downgrade. It is choice as to what is best for a list like CLT over Delta or Soontir over Phennir or anything else.

You're saying the game is balanced but I have to give up on a whole string of lists. The lists are already struggling with things and they'll struggle more with taking better-chance-to-move-at-my-choice upgrades while they are losing because they don't get to move at my choice while my opponent gets to keep points off the table for that advantage that you want to call a downgrade. The games are technically close but just like 1st Edition I'm losing in list-building. It just doesn't look like it because I'm not getting obliterated without it being a game.

So please do not try to tell me a bid isn't an upgrade. 🍻

32 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

So please do not try to tell me a bid isn't an upgrade. 🍻

More than that, it's an upgrade that locks those points away until every ship in the list has been destroyed. There's no way of getting half points on those point, and they float around to add to the value of whatever ship you have left. That's a huge advantage given that a significant number of tournament games go to time.

55 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

You're trying to have it both ways. You have to make choices in your list. You can put in better-chance-to-move-at-your-choice upgrades i.e. a bid or upgrades on cards. Either way you are making a choice as to what you think will give you a better chance to win over a series of matches. You don't get to make a better-chance-to-move-at-your-choice decision and call that a disadvantage.

I can take advanced proton torpedoes or a better-chance-to-move-at-my-choice. I can't have both and I don't get to call a better-chance-to-move-at-my-choice a downgrade. It is choice as to what is best for a list like CLT over Delta or Soontir over Phennir or anything else.

You're saying the game is balanced but I have to give up on a whole string of lists. The lists are already struggling with things and they'll struggle more with taking better-chance-to-move-at-my-choice upgrades while they are losing because they don't get to move at my choice while my opponent gets to keep points off the table for that advantage that you want to call a downgrade. The games are technically close but just like 1st Edition I'm losing in list-building. It just doesn't look like it because I'm not getting obliterated without it being a game.

So please do not try to tell me a bid isn't an upgrade. 🍻

Can I ask you what squads are you playing?

If you lose because the bid, I can only think two reasons:

- You play with high Initiative pilots without bid.

And/Or

- You play with a squad that lacks firepower.

11 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

Can I ask you what squads are you playing?

If you lose because the bid, I can only think two reasons:

- You play with high Initiative pilots without bid.

And/Or

- You play with a squad that lacks firepower.

On 10/24/2019 at 9:39 PM, executor said:

You could just remove the option to bid for initiative completely.

Just a roll of the dice at the start of each game. Winner chooses to take or pass initiative.

Then there's no need to see silly 20+ point bids for initiative and people are more inclined to maximize their point lists all the time.

Even after reading through all these replies i still stand behind this comment. This would solve the bidding issues.

Even if people decide to have a bid to hold some points away until all ships are destroyed, they won't have any advantage for doing so as randomizing initiative will make those points wasted points that could just be used to maximize efficiency.

That or alternate initiative each round. Someone mentioned this earlier as well (can't remember whom sorry). That can also be easily implimented as well.

Bid wars are gone and the game continues to be as healthy as it can be