So now that there are 4 factions on the table, the rulebook says that an army can only consist of units of the same faction.

Why?

The AT-RT was utilised by the Clone army before the Rebellion.
The TX-130 was briefly used by the Empire until a newer model (TX-130T) was released, but let's be honest, the newer model was practically the exact same in terms of appearance, just upgraded. There's no reason why the model available to the Galactic Republic can't be used as a 130T for the Galactic Empire.
Wookiee Warriors and Chewbacca fought for the Galactic Republic pre-Empire era.
There were still many Phase 2 Clone units in service to the Empire shortly after the Republic was reformed.

You literally see some of these things in the films.

I could go on and I'm sure other people have their own ideas of legitmate canon reasons why 'same faction only' shouldn't really be a thing.

Is there a way round this? Different card prints for the future? An additional rule in some other book/ supplement?
Or is this something that can only be Housed-Ruled and will never be acceptable in tournaments/ serious clubs?

It’s ruled that way because ffg never game tested mixing units so it could wind up with some bonkers combo. I don’t know what it is (though a Z6 cline squad fire support with surge to crit from that ATRT could be nuts!)

If you want to play with “timeline correct” units that blend factions as a house rule on the home game table, go for it! Sounds awesome. I imagine ffg will have official units that overlap with slightly different or balanced stats sometime in the next several years. Maybe it’ll happen, maybe they’ll skip them to try and avoid overlap.

I know this isn't the answer you want but I'm sure it is for game balance. It also depends on what is available to who. The rebels high-jack one AT-ST in the movie so legion allows rebels to build lists that include the AT-ST. That could be said for most vehicles though... rebels "could" steal a Tank. Clones can take wookies, and Empire can take the Saber tank and phase two clones because of the reason you outlined above, what can the droids take from other factions? Pretty much nothing. This leaves 3 factions with their own stuff and a pile of options from other factions. And the CIS is just kinda stuck with their own stuff. It throws off the number of options availible to each faction worse than it already is.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few select things start to cross over. AT RT's are probably the most likely.

We'll likely be getting the AT-RT for the Clones before too long, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Wookiees pop up. Nothing keeps these units from eventually seeing a spot in their "true" factions. The problems of just grafting them over is one of balance. Some stats will be too good, others won't be good enough to fit their "new" factions. You could also think of it as being a bit of the time gap. The stats and cost of the Rebel AT-RT represents a bit of Clone Wars surplus; the Clone version could have slightly different stats and cost, and represent the same unit as it was brand new. Same with the Wookiees, a different era's training and equipment effecting their abilities and price.

The only way around this is to homebrew something, and that's the way it should be. Otherwise, what's the point of having different factions in the first place?

Additionally, technically Empire should include all of the later items in the Republic army since the transition on military equipment didn't happen instantaneously. So that just leaves the CIS as an independent, non-blended faction.

I prefer keeping the factions separate for competitive play (and general casual play) since that makes it much easier to get something close to balance (or at least avoid flagrantly broken combinations... Veers with AT-RTs seems fairly powerful for one turn). House rules, so long as everyone playing agrees to whatever combinations, have fun.

There are two reasons that this usually happens, game balance and faction identity. If clones get the AT-RTs and can take wookies, suddenly the Republic looks and fights a lot more like the rebels.

That said, I suspect we will see some of that, like Sabine's tie and the mining guild ties in X-wing either the same models but a new card release for them or remodeled for the other army so they can be re balanced and changed to have a different feel and keep the faction identity.

27 minutes ago, allistorpreist said:

There are two reasons that this usually happens, game balance and faction identity. If clones get the AT-RTs and can take wookies, suddenly the Republic looks and fights a lot more like the rebels.

That said, I suspect we will see some of that, like Sabine's tie and the mining guild ties in X-wing either the same models but a new card release for them or remodeled for the other army so they can be re balanced and changed to have a different feel and keep the faction identity.

I'd like to make a slight edit to what you said. I agree that they may fight more like the rebels IF the stats are the same. I think both these units can work in the republic faction with altered stats. I believe the AT-RT at the very least belongs in the hands of the Republic. That's where it was birthed and widely used. It's pretty wonky to have Rebels fighting clones using a vehicle that was CREATED for the republic army, while the clone army it was conceived and produced en masse for doesn't have access to it. I only think it was used for rebels because rebels have few, if any, relevant "light" vehicles. Personally, I'm letting republic opponents use it (I'm 3D printing clone pilots) with its current stats. Wookies can wait because they're localized to only a few major engagements, but the AT-RT should come home sooner rather than later.

I agree they should totally appear with stat changes, for example, like the BARC, the AT-RT will likely have red defense dice, but may or may not have the surge crit on attacks. It has been a while since I watched the cartoon, but they may have other weapon options as well. All of these will certainly change the point cost. Hopefully FF will design some clone versions with a little different look and the new EU will give rebels some distinctly rebel stuff.

Well, so the reason they aren't compatible to start is they aren't made that way, and obviously the sculpts and stats don't reflect all factions - FFG has done pretty good at making sure units have very specific upgrades and overlap, I was quite shocked the new munitions we're gonna see in the AAT and TX-130 are universal. This usually keeps faction identity and solve some X-Wing "combowing" problems, many offensive upgrades upgrade only their unit so you don't need to worry about mix-and-match problems

They could eratta the rebel AT-RT hardpoints to be compatible with a future Republic AT-RT model, or it might make sense to give them their own slightly different hardpoint set to reflect the wants and needs of the Republic Faction. The core stats (and thus cost) probably would be different though, the Clone Trooper pilot would need a different weapon (don't even know if they made A-300 rifles in the Clone Wars) and possibly a different defensive save because he's probably wearing full clone kit of armor. It might also have slightly different HP/Resilience values, because it's brand new, not a 20 year old piece of tech. Anyway, suffice it to say, they would and should make it a slightly different unit and that means a new box. And while it will probably eventually happen, both they and many players probably don't want to do a "rebrand" release just yet. But if we are moving older kits over to harder plastic anyway, they will have to resculpt the AT-RT rider, so they could wait and if they're gonna take a look at the mini anyway, why not?

Now, if you want to do whatever at home and include logical units, go for it, but then you have to acknowledge you're using a unit not balanced or themed for the faction. There are some slight tweaks in stats, upgrades and even keywords which could and probably will appear between variations. The DLT-19, 19D and 19X aren't really that dissimilar, but all have slightly different stats to do slightly different things. Also, with Star Wars, you do not want to play the "but what if logically?" game. Then Rebels needs to be able to steal and field AT-STs, and for every stormtrooper I kill, why can't my rebels upgrade to Red saves when they steal your armor, like every Age of Rebellion or Edge of Empire PC does when they first cap a stormie?

7 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

And while it will probably eventually happen, both they and many players probably don't want to do a "rebrand" release just yet. But if we are moving older kits over to harder plastic anyway, they will have to resculpt the AT-RT rider, so they could wait and if they're gonna take a look at the mini anyway, why not?

I agree with this. I don't think it needs to be right away, but I imagine it would be much easier to develop a unit they have already created/just needs tweaked vs. coming up with something completely new.

9 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Now, if you want to do whatever at home and include logical units, go for it, but then you have to acknowledge you're using a unit not balanced or themed for the faction. There are some slight tweaks in stats, upgrades and even keywords which could and probably will appear between variations. The DLT-19, 19D and 19X aren't really that dissimilar, but all have slightly different stats to do slightly different things. Also, with Star Wars, you do not want to play the "but what if logically?" game. Then Rebels needs to be able to steal and field AT-STs, and for every stormtrooper I kill, why can't my rebels upgrade to Red saves when they steal your armor, like every Age of Rebellion or Edge of Empire PC does when they first cap a stormie?

I understand the danger of trying to use logic concerning our Space-Opera battle simulator, but I do think there is a line. We don't want to blend factions too much (which is why rebels can't steal AT-ST's or armor), but we don't want factions missing out on their iconic toys either. If it were up to me I would have given the rebels a different unit entirely. I think they should have gotten one landspeeder as a lighter "support" unit in the core, and then one of many EU rebel tracked or hover tanks as their second heavy option. Hindsight is always 20/20 though. I'm not sure the designers knew for sure how popular Legion would be, and I'm guessing they didn't have plans for Clone Wars at the initial release of the GCW cores.

16 minutes ago, Dcalov said:

I agree with this. I don't think it needs to be right away, but I imagine it would be much easier to develop a unit they have already created/just needs tweaked vs. coming up with something completely new.

I understand the danger of trying to use logic concerning our Space-Opera battle simulator, but I do think there is a line. We don't want to blend factions too much (which is why rebels can't steal AT-ST's or armor), but we don't want factions missing out on their iconic toys either. If it were up to me I would have given the rebels a different unit entirely. I think they should have gotten one landspeeder as a lighter "support" unit in the core, and then one of many EU rebel tracked or hover tanks as their second heavy option. Hindsight is always 20/20 though. I'm not sure the designers knew for sure how popular Legion would be, and I'm guessing they didn't have plans for Clone Wars at the initial release of the GCW cores.

Another set of limitations is "What EU units will Disney allow? What canon units will Disney insist on? What canon abilities will Disney insist on being duplicated? Etc, etc." As far as I know, Disney has to approve everything before it's released. That's what some of the designers of the FFG RPG indicated at least on the handful of podcasts I've heard interviews.

10 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Another set of limitations is "What EU units will Disney allow? What canon units will Disney insist on? What canon abilities will Disney insist on being duplicated? Etc, etc." As far as I know, Disney has to approve everything before it's released. That's what some of the designers of the FFG RPG indicated at least on the handful of podcasts I've heard interviews.

*sigh*.. I always forget about the Mouse's role in all this. That's a fair point. I think as long as the designers can make a fair argument that X or Y unit will increase interest in a faction/add something significant (thus increasing $ales) AND it already exists somewhere in the EU or elsewhere, it shouldn't be too much of an issue. However, as we've already witnessed even minor intervention (insisting on Luke and Vader operatives/GCW releases immediately following CW release) can be a hindrance to what the designers and most of the playerbase want.

I need to set a filter to replace "Disney" with LFL. I'm pretty sure actual disney employees don't care about the continuity, they understand people at lucasfilm are paid to do that. Disney DEFINITELY doesn't care about "canon abilities insist on being duplicated". Put your illuminati eyes away for a sec. I'm reasonably certain FFG had their relationship with LFL from before the buyout, and still talk to the same people. And remember Lucasfilm lets them create original content (some of which has been pulled back into other parts of the continuity). Some EU pilots also got reprinted for XW2, which is very recent. And EA has put quite a few named EU characters in Galaxy of Heroes (admittedly all from KotoR which they now own the studio who made it but still!)

FFG I think has got to pull back on forced tie-ins, it really tied their hands even though Lucasfilm allowed them some exclusive access to design stuff like U-Wing and TIE Striker minis, but they did not have the complete picture they usually need to make good product. When you're in a business relationship for a long time you get this give and take, like LFL going "Well... could you make some GCW releases still?". If it's a marketing conspiracy they should actually be pushing Clones harder or releasing Scum factions so they can try and get you to buy Disney+ for The Mandalorian or TCW S7. Obviously, hard to know specifics but I think the issue on approval with release is more about keeping pre-established details straight and not obviously contradicting anything. For instance, Lucas himself in TCW and the like seems pretty insistent Boba Fett isn't a mandalorian, just wearing the armor. Since TCW carried over to the canon, this is how it is. So if FFG were to make a pure Mandalorian faction or sub-faction, they probably couldn't put Boba Fett in it, because that would clearly contradict current lore and be potentially confusing for the brand (even if it is true in Legends). Working on directly canon things is much easier because all you do is stay in the lore or maybe ask some clarifying questions, and LFL wrote it all in this continuity so if it's "wrong" it's their fault. Y'all can't see because you're seeing mouse ears everywhere but FFG has "gotten away" with a decent amount of OC in Legion. Even on the very AT-RT we are discussing, I can't find any reference to the unit being equipped with a rotary autocannon or a flamer in either continuity.

I think model production logistics have way more to do with when and what we see than anything to do with Disney.

Yeah, this is a second point. The new GCW operatives were roughly parallel with the CW core set they made it sound, and the devs also made it sound like that helped them round out ideas for both Luke and Vader but also Obi-Wan and Grievous as units. If they were developed in parallel, they should have been ready at roughly the same time, so rules wise, neither perceived interference from Disney/LFL nor dev time would have prevented it from say, being released first, then a big string of CW. Business at this level is a complex thing though, so there's a lot of ways who and why somewhere it was decided not to do that, and do like, a splash of CW, drop the two GCW, presumably the terrain and upgrade kits were developed next so do those all in a set, then rotate back to CW. I think, personally, somebody at FFG wanted to make sure CW was ready so they could sell kits early at Gencon and try for that sooner world-wide release. Hindsight being 20/20 like we said, maybe they should have done it the other way around so CW had more time to ship and coordinate, but hey.

On 10/23/2019 at 2:49 PM, Kaz Crowley said:

So now that there are 4 factions on the table, the rulebook says that an army can only consist of units of the same faction.

Why?

The AT-RT was utilised by the Clone army before the Rebellion.
The TX-130 was briefly used by the Empire until a newer model (TX-130T) was released, but let's be honest, the newer model was practically the exact same in terms of appearance, just upgraded. There's no reason why the model available to the Galactic Republic can't be used as a 130T for the Galactic Empire.
Wookiee Warriors and Chewbacca fought for the Galactic Republic pre-Empire era.
There were still many Phase 2 Clone units in service to the Empire shortly after the Republic was reformed.

You literally see some of these things in the films.

I could go on and I'm sure other people have their own ideas of legitmate canon reasons why 'same faction only' shouldn't really be a thing.

Is there a way round this? Different card prints for the future? An additional rule in some other book/ supplement?
Or is this something that can only be Housed-Ruled and will never be acceptable in tournaments/ serious clubs?

Why? Because by the time the Rebellion exists nearly every member of the CIS and GAR has been dead for ~20-30 years. That’s why.

Personally, when I type "Disney" I mean "Disney or any subsidiary such as LFL," but I find the former much quicker to type. Just because FFG is mostly working with LFL doesn't in turn mean LFL isn't getting some kind of minor direction from Disney. Now, I agree that there could be a closer marketing tie in than Luke and Vader, but the word from FFG is that those models are only being released now due to LFL/Disney/some outside group. This may just be a way to place blame somewhere else, or as you say a casual thing, but it does still highlight that FFG isn't alone in making decisions on Legion. I'm not trying to claim there is a conspiracy either, just that there IS some body of people outside of FFG that has some amount of influence on the product. It also seems from some sources (authors, game designers, etc) that LFL under Disney is more stringent about what it will approve than LFL under Lucas, which was a LOT worse for contradictory information and such.

There is some evidence that Disney/LFL was the reason the German printing of the Age of Rebellion book doesn't have the Bothan race, and now some evidence that Disney/LFL is the reason for the Operatives being released now. So there is evidence of some facet of Disney/LFL exerting influence over FFG's products. The Operative release COULD be intended to tie into the newest movie, given the callbacks SW9 looks like it will have to the OT. Disney+ is fine, but movies are often more of a focus than the small screen. And if they were going to tie into the small screen, there IS also the upcoming release of another season of the Clone Wars cartoon. It could also have just been an idle comment leading to the dev team developing models someone from the LFL indicated they would like in casual conversation. Who knows? Certainly not me.

18 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Even on the very AT-RT we are discussing, I can't find any reference to the unit being equipped with a rotary autocannon or a flamer in either continuity.

Nor can I find an AT-ST with a Mortar, or a double handful of other weapons options that were created for the game. They are all fairly internally consistent though, nothing too insane like some of the stranger weapons that have been in even the newer video games/media. In the case of the AT-RT, we haven't seen the Republic version of the unit yet, so it's possible the rotary blaster and flamethrower are supposed to be Rebel modifications to old vehicles. I can't imagine a flamethrower being of particular use against battle droids (depending on temperatures and meaning outside the game, and ion weapons seems much more useful), but I could see some value in setting fires at an Imperial outpost/supply depo before running off. Edit: As is pointed out below, sticky burning fluid will still mess up electronics.

Clones will get flamers at some point, they do canonically use them, but against Geonosians. They'd be really ideal for the droids for rules, to they might reiterate that one, but i'd expect the Mortar Launcher the AT-RT is supposed to have either way.

7 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Personally, when I type "Disney" I mean "Disney or any subsidiary such as LFL," but I find the former much quicker to type. Just because FFG is mostly working with LFL doesn't in turn mean LFL isn't getting some kind of minor direction from Disney. Now, I agree that there could be a closer marketing tie in than Luke and Vader, but the word from FFG is that those models are only being released now due to LFL/Disney/some outside group. This may just be a way to place blame somewhere else, or as you say a casual thing, but it does still highlight that FFG isn't alone in making decisions on Legion. I'm not trying to claim there is a conspiracy either, just that there IS some body of people outside of FFG that has some amount of influence on the product. It also seems from some sources (authors, game designers, etc) that LFL under Disney is more stringent about what it will approve than LFL under Lucas, which was a LOT worse for contradictory information and such.

There is some evidence that Disney/LFL was the reason the German printing of the Age of Rebellion book doesn't have the Bothan race, and now some evidence that Disney/LFL is the reason for the Operatives being released now. So there is evidence of some facet of Disney/LFL exerting influence over FFG's products. The Operative release COULD be intended to tie into the newest movie, given the callbacks SW9 looks like it will have to the OT. Disney+ is fine, but movies are often more of a focus than the small screen. And if they were going to tie into the small screen, there IS also the upcoming release of another season of the Clone Wars cartoon. It could also have just been an idle comment leading to the dev team developing models someone from the LFL indicated they would like in casual conversation. Who knows? Certainly not me.

Nor can I find an AT-ST with a Mortar, or a double handful of other weapons options that were created for the game. They are all fairly internally consistent though, nothing too insane like some of the stranger weapons that have been in even the newer video games/media. In the case of the AT-RT, we haven't seen the Republic version of the unit yet, so it's possible the rotary blaster and flamethrower are supposed to be Rebel modifications to old vehicles. I can't imagine a flamethrower being of particular use against battle droids (depending on temperatures and meaning outside the game, and ion weapons seems much more useful), but I could see some value in setting fires at an Imperial outpost/supply depo before running off.

Flamethrowers would work just fine against droids. Is your car or cell phone immune to fire?

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

Flamethrowers would work just fine against droids. Is your car or cell phone immune to fire?

Yup. Proven on screen even.

2 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Flamethrowers would work just fine against droids. Is your car or cell phone immune to fire?

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Yup. Proven on screen even.

I will point out that "on fire" and "hit with a blast of fire" are different situations. What I forgot was that military grade flamethrowers are more akin to "napalm throwers" which is probably in line with the sort of design Star Wars militaries would be going for. So point conceded.

3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I will point out that "on fire" and "hit with a blast of fire" are different situations. What I forgot was that military grade flamethrowers are more akin to "napalm throwers" which is probably in line with the sort of design Star Wars militaries would be going for. So point conceded.

Although, I will say they should be less effective against droids.

This scene always bothered me, they were on fire for only a few seconds and were destroyed by that.... it makes so little sense. With that metal casing it should have taken longer. Much longer.

5 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Although, I will say they should be less effective against droids.

This scene always bothered me, they were on fire for only a few seconds and were destroyed by that.... it makes so little sense. With that metal casing it should have taken longer. Much longer.

Me too. Especially since the Jedi and Clones are shown elsewhere having a hard time against the B2s, if they were that weak to fire the Republic should have exploited that...

Maybe the CIS used the same batteries as the Galaxy Note 7 later in the war to save money?

3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Maybe the CIS used the same batteries as the Galaxy Note 7 later in the war to save money?

Low key trying to join ISIS. LMAO

Yeah, that's the only way I could see it plausible. The power source must have been touching the chest carapace, that's the only way it could heat up enough to "pop" in the time frame. (I would presume there's a pocket of air between the chest armor and electronic bits but maybe the CIS was REALLY phoning it in.)

Many claim game balance and other such things but if it is available to all players, thean it would be just as fair for all players. I think it is to keep folks from multi-purposing models between different armies. force you to buy more models. of course, it is also a line. In making rules, you have to draw the line....somewhere. Easier to keep it strict and official rather than somewhere down the slope.

My group, Im setting up where we as players are not representing the empire or rebels or whatnot but instead we are crime lords who are able to buy equipment and hire men on the black market. This allows us to have "stormtroopers", fighting side by side with droids. Mix and match as we like. I know thats farther along than your talking about but we are just branching it in a different direction where we can pool resources as players to save money and allow poorer players to play that might not otherwise be able to do so. It also lets us play in a campaign mixing the different games. We are only doing legion and x wing but we have the maps done up and a way to play it out. We are even able to bring in outside groups like Jabbas forces as NPCs