This thread is devoted to crafting a home brew, optional addition to the rules set which features a limited talent tree for each identified species to allow players the option to build upon their characters investment into being a more iconic example of a particular species. I am hoping that others will join me in trying to craft a balanced and simplified approach to this.

The concept is that each race would have access to a free talent tree specific to their species. I would also propose that the talent tree be smaller than the usual career tree, possibly featuring as few as two or three columns and rows, rather than the 4 columns and 5 rows.

Additionally, the tree should hew as close as possible to existing canon appearances of the species, and traits or qualities which may not be represented in the initial species stat block could be added here. For example, if a species lacked a swim speed or underwater breathing, those could be concepts to explore as per of the tree, showing the characters personal growth or background in the environment.

I am open to examples, although I will try and draft a few. A good place to check may be the species menagerie, as much of these investigations have been done by those industrious folks.

I love this idea, and I'd very much enjoy helping out . I think we should establish a baseline; why not reduce the size by one on each axis - so a 3 x 4 tree for species, with a characteristic-limited form of Dedication at the bottom?

I'll see about getting a rough draft of the togruta made up, if you think those restrictions make sense!

For a reduced tree, I think that Dedication is a little bit OP and simply encourages even more min-maxing with starting species selection (which is already a concern with adding a tree for them).

That said, I think that this is a fun idea and would like to contribute. I would suggest a 3x3 tree size with talents valued at no more than 15 XP.

I'm not necessarily great at coming up with stuff from scratch, but I would be able to make suggestions and critique stuff.

Suggestion: Humans should have Well Rounded as a 15XP option. Also humans: sense we are portrayed as extremely adaptable and able to fit any role, I would suggest having 3 straight columns with different focuses (similar to the Commodore tree).

Something to be careful about is trying to avoid career special talents such as True Aim, which wouldn't really make sense as a natural ability for someone who hasn't trained with the skill.

4 hours ago, Absol197 said:

I love this idea, and I'd very much enjoy helping out . I think we should establish a baseline; why not reduce the size by one on each axis - so a 3 x 4 tree for species, with a characteristic-limited form of Dedication at the bottom?

I'll see about getting a rough draft of the togruta made up, if you think those restrictions make sense!

That's actually what I was thinking as well.

3 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

For a reduced tree, I think that Dedication is a little bit OP and simply encourages even more min-maxing with starting species selection (which is already a concern with adding a tree for them).

That said, I think that this is a fun idea and would like to contribute. I would suggest a 3x3 tree size with talents valued at no more than 15 XP.

I'm not necessarily great at coming up with stuff from scratch, but I would be able to make suggestions and critique stuff.

Suggestion: Humans should have Well Rounded as a 15XP option. Also humans: sense we are portrayed as extremely adaptable and able to fit any role, I would suggest having 3 straight columns with different focuses (similar to the Commodore tree).

Something to be careful about is trying to avoid career special talents such as True Aim, which wouldn't really make sense as a natural ability for someone who hasn't trained with the skill.

I don't think it would be OP as there is only the ability to have one species tree, therefore at most it's equivalent of getting a similar tree in career with non-ranked talents that can be skipped.

1 minute ago, Khazadune said:

I don't think it would be OP as there is only the ability to have one species tree, therefore at most it's equivalent of getting a similar tree in career with non-ranked talents that can be skipped.

It depends how you build the trees, but if you fit with the pattern of increasing the talent costs by 5 per row, it becomes either less expensive or the other talents become more expensive. There are workarounds if you were to make the tree zig-zaggy, but I think that it probably makes the most sense for the concept. If you want to add Dedication, then fine, but I think of the idea of a species specific talent tree as something to give you a few relevant talents close at hand.

Part of the concern comes from the tree being free.

I like the idea, and I think a 3x4 or 3x3 format would be just perfect, as it won't overshadow your chosen profession.

But I think making it free might be a mistake and cause balancing issues. On the other hand, paying even the in-career cost for just 9 or 12 talents seem like a little pricey. What about making it somewhat in line with Force Power and Signature Ability trees? Put one big block up top that can be made somewhat more pricey as an initial buy-in cost? Maybe at 10-15 points and then follow up with a 3x3 grid at 5, 10 and 15 points per row.

The initial buy in could be a custom talent that keys into species abilities, perhaps expanding on it or in the case of those species that get a choice of two options, a chance to pick the one you didn't choose? Or are those with options always just different skill ranks?

19 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I like the idea, and I think a 3x4 or 3x3 format would be just perfect, as it won't overshadow your chosen profession.

But I think making it free might be a mistake and cause balancing issues. On the other hand, paying even the in-career cost for just 9 or 12 talents seem like a little pricey. What about making it somewhat in line with Force Power and Signature Ability trees? Put one big block up top that can be made somewhat more pricey as an initial buy-in cost? Maybe at 10-15 points and then follow up with a 3x3 grid at 5, 10 and 15 points per row.

The initial buy in could be a custom talent that keys into species abilities, perhaps expanding on it or in the case of those species that get a choice of two options, a chance to pick the one you didn't choose? Or are those with options always just different skill ranks?

By Jove... this is it!

15 pt. Signature Species ability for each species, with a 3x4 species career tree.

I think a 10 pt buy-in for the signature species ability is fine, so long as there is the realization that these are more flavour than min/max opportunities. I would prefer seeing the big highlight to the species tree being a shorter route to a single dedication as a "reward" for players to invest in their species background and unique culture/heritage. I am open to this final talent being a force point for certain species (Here's looking at your Miraluka) where the species own history is so intrinsically tied to the force that it makes sense, but I'm not married to the idea as it is more likely to be abused.

That said let's workshop some typical species' talents or signature abilities and see if we can't start getting some tree concepts fleshed out.

1 minute ago, Khazadune said:

I am open to this final talent being a force point for certain species (Here's looking at your Miraluka)

I had the exact same thought.

I've seen suggested Miraluka builds that start them off at FR1, which always rubbed me the wrong way.

Better to just give them some kind of starting ability tied their force sight and consider any inherent FR they would have permanently committed to maintaining that. So, basically FR0, ie Force Sensitive in name only.

For Twi'lek I think the obvious starting point is their lekku. We have seen that there are subtle ways to communicate using lekku and a possible signature species ability is basically a "sign language" with the thought that this could have implications for players trying to non verbally share information in sensitive moments etc, risked against a perceptive target who might clue in to this.

Then since Rebels shared more of their cultural history via Grand Admiral Thrawn, I would suggest at least one talent named for their family heirloom, the Kalikori, which offers a rank or an upgrade in Knowledge Lore checks. (As knowledge ranks are often under-utilized and unappreciated in this system, I think it's nice to put them in the way of other things so that people have to take them and then see their benefit without really thinking of having to choose to invest in it as a 'subpar' option. For example if the dedication point was 'gated' behind the Twi'lek heirloom talent.)

An additional talent which provides a boost to coordination checks and narratively associated to a traditional Twi'lek dance may make sense as well.

Thoughts?

I'll keep a general eye on this, as it seems a good idea. (generally new to the game, so can't really comment too much on suggested abilities)

I'l also suggest just having it a 9 talent tree (at most), simply since while the signature races might be easy to fill out ... once you get into the less exotic races you'll have a harder time getting all the slots filled out.

4 hours ago, thinkbomb said:

I'll keep a general eye on this, as it seems a good idea. (generally new to the game, so can't really comment too much on suggested abilities)

I'l also suggest just having it a 9 talent tree (at most), simply since while the signature races might be easy to fill out ... once you get into the less exotic races you'll have a harder time getting all the slots filled out.

That's a great point, I'll work from the 3x3 instead since there already seems a preference and this adds more credence to that.

3x3 with no side to side action. Every trait no matter the placement is 5xp. All of them are minor effects or even just RP elements. They only work in columns with no side to side shuffle or weird mappings. Once the entire chart is filled out you can get a dedication for 1 characteristic or 1 FP for 25xp. Total cost of the tree to get to and acquire the dedication is 70xp.

X Y Z

| | |

X Y Z

| | |

X Y Z

\ | /

D

I'm not sure you can come up with 9 traits (even if each column is just building off the previous trait) that would make it worth the 5/10/15 xp build towards the end.

This method would also force a wide spread approach to learning about one's culture. You don't get to just focus on one area if you want the ultimate goal of the dedication, you have to learn about everything in your culture. Only then do you reach that level of enlightenment with who you are.

Example: Jawa: (fair warning, these may not be great ideas, just trying to lay out the concept behind the trees)

Ingenuity 1= add blue to mechanical checks; Ingenuity 2= remove black from mechanical checks; Ingenuity 3= allow modifications checks without all required upgrade material (reduces modification cost by 25%)

Survival instincts 1= remove black from any survival check for environmental reasons; Survival instincts 2 = add blue to survival checks for environmental reasons; Survival instincts 3= add additional blue die for survival checks in desert environments.

Expert trader 1= add blue dice to negotiation check; expert trader 2= add blue dice to streetwise check; expert trader 3= add blue dice to deception check

-------------------

As for an approach, don't shotgun this and just accept any and every suggestion...it's going to be chaotic. People suggesting parts of trees, or one talent, or overpowered stuff... Pick 1 race, make a post about it, link to wookiepedia or other sources that describe the race, allow people to make suggestions, then build a grid based on what was suggested. Suggest that people defend their ideas with rational (in clone wars we saw this, in Ep5 we saw this, in book X they talked about that).

I am not a fan of the idea, to be honest, for a few reasons.

First of all, it's more skill bloat.

Second, it plays more into the ' planet of hats ' trope that Star Wars in all its forms already suffers severely from as it is. It'll make all Wookiees more like Chewbacca, all Corellians more like Han Solo, all Chiss more like thrawn etcetera.

Finally, related to that, it will likely create a bunch of talents that are unique to certain species that probably shouldn't be unique to that species. The Wookiee tree will almost certainly have a talent related to arm removal, that could easily go into any Brawn 3 species tree as well.

I was going to assume that no unique talents be created. The twi'lek might get a rank or two of Distracting Behavior, but wouldn't get the Improved version, nor any twi'lek-specific talents.

I can see your point of the "planet of hats" issue, though. Although I'm thinking of this as a way to not double-down on what the species is already good at but rather to expand on the lessor things they excel at that they're maybe less known for. Basically, a way top expand their options rather than further shoehorning them.

But that was my take, perhaps others had a different conception.

3 hours ago, Absol197 said:

I was going to assume that no unique talents be created. The twi'lek might get a rank or two of Distracting Behavior, but wouldn't get the Improved version, nor any twi'lek-specific talents.

I can see your point of the "planet of hats" issue, though. Although I'm thinking of this as a way to not double-down on what the species is already good at but rather to expand on the lessor things they excel at that they're maybe less known for. Basically, a way top expand their options rather than further shoehorning them.

But that was my take, perhaps others had a different conception.

I think you're pretty much alone there.

Reading the thread I mostly see suggestions for unique talents involving a species' culture and anatomy, making them stick as close to canon characters of the specoes in question, and even a Dedication and Force Rating stuff.

Now, I think the concept is sound, but the talents in a species tree should be cheap, minor, and even mostly cosmetic, flavour even.

@Absol197 I had the same take, but it is clearly not the same for some people. I haven't put a tremendous amount of thought into it, but if I were to build a tree for humans, it would be talents like Well Rounded or Indistinguishable that play to the "humans fit any roll, and are everywhere" stereotype.

For the Dresselians or other primitive species, maybe there should be an option (tier 3) for getting rid of Primitive?

had some thoughts, I'll use specific species examples...

• On board with most of these being flare, cosmetic, cheap. Cultural heritage, reknown, etc. Maybe even just a cheaper alternative to invest into specific skills (like twi'lek distraction listed above)
• mid-tier where applicable ... not every species needs these. they can be 10xp, but really only there when it's kinda on-the-nose not to. The aquatic species (mon cals, etc) can get underwater mobility bonuses that they can super upgrade
• upper tier - really only available where the species is flat out known for it and has combat effectiveness. Ithorian sonic bellow being one such example. I wouldn't picture these being super common among species, just more the stuff where players would be "can I do the cool thing, please?"

yeah, there's over-troping species ... but until you're a few characters in, most new players will want to be the awesome thing they know. I kinda see this both as a tool to let players do awesome, and a tool to teach them about stuff they might not realize about the species (if you use deep lore knowledge and tie it to species talents, that'll prompt players to look it up and learn).

So while I'm in a similar mindset as micheldebruyn, I do have a few possible ideas on how to make this feasible without it going down the rabbit-hole as he mentioned.

First, the idea of there being one "entry-level" talent that unlocks access to the other talents is a good idea. Probably have it cost 10XP, and base said talent off what Genesys considers to be 5XP talents, or perhaps even watered down versions of what the Genesys template creation rules would suggest as a 10XP template ability. Probably should avoid the "this skill becomes a career skill" sort of thing for this entry-level talent.

As for the number of talents, I'd keep it very small, with a grand total of four per species (the one base, and then two or three talents that could be purchased afterwards). This way, you provide various extra traits that are keyed to the species (Wookiee climbing claws, Sullustans being very good at not getting lost, Twi'leks being able to convey information via their head-tails, etc) but not bury them under a plethora of either existing talents that become a lot easier to acquire or fluff-heavy talents that are so situational as to be of little practical use. I'd definitely suggest leaving anything to Dedication off the list of possible choices, though you could probably add in a talent that lets the species gain one of their signature skills (i.e. got a free bonus rank in) as being a career skill, such as a Wookiee being able to select Brawl (handy if they went for a career/spec combo that doesn't offer Brawl) or a Twi'lek selecting Charm or Deception (player's choice).

If one is going to do something akin to "remove setback from checks for skill" then I'd actually recommend going closer to the route that Genesys did with Knack For It, being limited to a single skill, but only removing a single setback die instead of two. It still makes the said type of talent useful, but also doesn't make it an automatic "gotta have it!" either. Also, said setback removal probably shouldn't be applied to any skills that the species gets a free rank in at character creation, as that would just double-down on the "planet of hats" aspect and could be seen as punitive to those players who go against the general grain a species suggests.

I admit I'm more in the camp of "is this really necessary at all" but I'm not going to actively speak against someone else's homebrewing, however I would agree with @Donovan Morningfire that you want to keep these extra talents to a tight, focused selection. Four in total (a single talent tree row) should be more than sufficient as these are intended to enhance and flavor a character not compete with or replace the career specialisations.

And to put it more practically, you're going to struggle with the vast majority of species if you want to fill out 9 or 12 talents. I mean, the big names like Mon Calamari or Wookiees might stretch to that with their extensive lore - but Skakoans? Aleena? Phylodons? Four seems the more pragmatic number all-round. It makes your job easier, it limits the potential for power bloat, and it culls a lot of needless duplication across trees.

On 10/24/2019 at 6:12 PM, micheldebruyn said:

I am not a fan of the idea, to be honest, for a few reasons.

First of all, it's more skill bloat.

Second, it plays more into the ' planet of hats ' trope that Star Wars in all its forms already suffers severely from as it is. It'll make all Wookiees more like Chewbacca, all Corellians more like Han Solo, all Chiss more like thrawn etcetera.

Finally, related to that, it will likely create a bunch of talents that are unique to certain species that probably shouldn't be unique to that species. The Wookiee tree will almost certainly have a talent related to arm removal, that could easily go into any Brawn 3 species tree as well.

The idea was not to play into stereotypes, it was to add more options for players who would like to be more authentically their species that don't necessarily have that ability at the moment, and, to offer the system a way to continue to grow without adding more specializations to existing careers. For example, perhaps a player wanted to invest in a Wookiee tree. It wouldn't be built on tearing off arms as you suggest but rather may have the ability to climb using their claws, or perhaps they would have a talent for which provides a boost to knowledge Lore checks based upon Wookiee oral tradition.

The intent is that the optional system could give designers a way to provide for players to do things they should be able to do, but for balance reasons couldn't be given off the hop. It has the added bonus of being able to be packaged as a set into an omnibus species book with a few species left out, and a few new added in. (Enticing players to still need to buy region books or something to get those species, but offering something new to entice them to buy the species book)

As the tree will not be offering more than a boost, remove setback, treat a skill as a career skill and then the biological talent (breath underwater, swim speed, climb speed, scent ability, etc.) and finally, a dedication point. The tree requires at least a 3x3 with species signature buy in talent to not provide a free tree while still providing a path to a stat gain that makes the investment worthwhile to min/max players. Players would be required to purchase 2 of the rank 3 talents to be able to buy the dedication point, making it only 5 xp cheaper than any other tree to get the dedication point, although it has less overall benefit along the way to that talent than career trees for balance.