Hey everyone

So I've been testing hard with the First Order for the last few months. I haven't been messing with Kylo or Tavson, and mostly not Quickdraw either because those pilots are a known factor - we know why they're good and how they should fly. Players much better than me have been demonstrating consistent success with those ships.

I spent a couple weeks on 5 Optics SFs. Once again, we know why they're good - lots of hp, lots of arcs, consistent damage at any range. There's another thread dedicated to them. They're good; check them out.

But what I'm most excited to talk about, and what I personally have had the most success with, is the humble Tie /FO swarm. I want to start with the most obvious comparison: the imperial tie swarm:

Advantages of FOs:

•1 shield gives crit protection as well as a considerable boost to survivability.

•Blue hard 2s makes them less predictable after a turnaround maneuver.

•Sloops give them much more interesting options to turn around.

•Lock action gives them useful options when going for blocks or disengaging.

•Scorch for a reliable 3 die offense.

•Advance Optics for near-Howrunner consistent offense irrespective of formation flying.

Disadvantages of FOs

•Lower initiative means the opponent's list can more easily initiative kill, especially against opposing swarms.

•Fewer useful pilot abilities compared to Imperials

•No Iden to keep you safe from the dice gods

•Howlrunner gives slightly better offensive capabilities than Advanced Optics

•Howlrunner gives passive mods to tokenless ties.

So why pick the First Order?

I think losing the inherent restriction to fly in formation is the single biggest advantage an FO swarm has over all swarms without access to optics. And compared to SFs or RZ2s, sheer numbers. This lets you spread wider nets, take advantage of obstacles, and disengage better than most swarms.

I currently have 2 variations that I've been waffling between. I'm not entirely sure which is better.

The first is a six-ship list: 3 I1 generics, Rivas, Longshot, and Scorch, all with optics and fanatical on Longshot and Scorch. The 4 I1 ships set up in a corner with Longshot tagging slightly behind while Scorch sets up to flank in the opposite corner, fully prepared to turn away should they point their arcs his way. So far I have not list a single game in 15 with this list, although at least 2 games came down to lucky dice. Granted, only 4 of those were tournament games and nothing larger than 16 players, so those numbers could be misleading.

The second list is a seven-ship squad of 6 I1 generics, 2 with Optics, and Scorch with Fanatical. Dice probability says that the additional tie adds more to damage than the loss of 4 Optics. It also adds 4 more hard to kill hitpoints and another blocker. Finally, it has the lucky distinction of being largely immune to the tactical relay TA-175 since all ships save for Scorch get to shoot at I1, preventing any benefit from the relay. I'm 4-0 with this variant, but with no tourney games under my belt yet.

So that's what I love about the First Order. Has anyone else been experimenting with anything similar? I'm very interested in your comments.

My first attempt was going to be six Zetas, all with Pattern analyzer.

It comes in at 192 points, so that leaves a little room for upgrades, or upgrading a couple of the pilots.

I haven't put it on the table yet, though, so I can't vouch for the effectiveness of the build.

22 minutes ago, underling said:

My first attempt was going to be six Zetas, all with Pattern analyzer.

It comes in at 192 points, so that leaves a little room for upgrades, or upgrading a couple of the pilots.

I haven't put it on the table yet, though, so I can't vouch for the effectiveness of the build.

Muse is fun with pattern analyzer - like a toned down defender. I'm not sure PA is better than optics though - these things don't have to do red maneuvers all that often.

Gentleman, I leave you with this:

__________

SleepingGiant

I5

(39) Commander Malarus [TIE/fo Fighter]
(1) Crack Shot
Points: 40

I4

(34) "Scorch" [TIE/fo Fighter]
(2) Fanatical
Points: 36

I3

(29) Omega Squadron Ace [TIE/fo Fighter]
(2) Fanatical
Points: 31

I3

(32) "Longshot" [TIE/fo Fighter]
(2) Fanatical
Points: 34

I1

(28) Lieutenant Rivas [TIE/fo Fighter]
Points: 28

I7/0

(31) "Null" [TIE/fo Fighter]
Points: 31

Total points: 200

7 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

I think losing the inherent restriction to fly in formation is the single biggest advantage an FO swarm has over all swarms without access to optics. And compared to SFs or RZ2s, sheer numbers. This lets you spread wider nets, take advantage of obstacles, and disengage better than most swarms.

This. I'm a big advocate of how great the basic chassis of the TIE/fo is. For a measly 3 points over it's predecessor, the TIE/ln, you're getting a 3 point targeting computer, an 8 point shield upgrade, a tech slot, and dramatically superior dial with blue turns.

7 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

So that's what I love about the First Order. Has anyone else been experimenting with anything similar? I'm very interested in your comments.

A couple of things, on and off. I also think the tech slot is essentially the 'core' TIE/fo ability, replacing the squad-boosting pilots like Del, Iden and Cive in the Empire.

I quite like 'fluffy' forces, so my favourite is a roster-correct Epsilon Squadron:

• Muse - Fanatical, Pattern Analyser
  • This build makes Muse essentially a baby TIE defender. Being able to pull a speed 2 segnor's loop every turn and still get your action makes her shockingly hard to pin down, even with massively 'better' ships, and if she gets winged, Fanatical means she can evade instead and still get modified attacks.
• Null - Advanced Optics, Afterburners
  • Null with Afterburners is a surprisingly good pocket ace. He lacks killing power but advanced optics helps. More importantly, Initiative 7 makes him unexpectedly good when facing other aces.
• Epsilon Squadron Cadet - Advanced Optics x4
  • As noted, this is basically a mini-swarm with a sort of 'distributed Howlrunner effect'. The fact that anyone who still has a focus token left by the time they engage is guaranteed to be able to spend it if they roll less than perfect hits is great!

7 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

The first is a six-ship list: 3 I1 generics, Rivas, Longshot, and Scorch, all with optics and fanatical on Longshot and Scorch. The 4 I1 ships set up in a corner with Longshot tagging slightly behind while Scorch sets up to flank in the opposite corner, fully prepared to turn away should they point their arcs his way. So far I have not list a single game in 15 with this list, although at least 2 games came down to lucky dice. Granted, only 4 of those were tournament games and nothing larger than 16 players, so those numbers could be misleading.

Sounds good. I have to admit Longshot is one of three TIE/fo pilots I'm not convinced by (the others being Commander Malarus and Static).

• Primary weapons fire at range 3 is shoddy at best, and doubly so from a ship with a base primary weapon value of 2.
• A pilot ability which says "when you use your fairly mediocre weapons at their least effective range, they're slightly less awful than they should be" doesn't feel like much of a win.
• Yes, improved initiative, but he's only as good as a basic Omega Squadron Ace - he's paying 3 points relative to the ace and 6 points relative to a generic for the ability (enough to be equivalent to a missile upgrade which would - if the TIE/fo could equip it, which I admit it can't - provide a far greater increase in range 3 potential, and range 2 potential to boot)

Scorch by comparison is great because you can be throwing that bonus die at range 2 or range 1 where it'll actually matter, and the downside (stress) is something you can handle with your great dial.

Rivas is also great just because so many things can trigger his ability. A wingmen target locked his target? Free Lock. The target did a red manoeuvre or action? Free Lock. A nantex self-tractored? Free Lock. A gunboat SLAM-ed or reloaded? Free Lock. Granted a focus/locked 2-dice shot is still a 2-dice shot, but for less than 30 points getting free actions on a regular basis is an amazing deal.

3 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

Muse is fun with pattern analyzer - like a toned down defender. I'm not sure PA is better than optics though - these things don't have to do red maneuvers all that often.

I find they do actually segnor quite a lot (though that may be a matter of flying style). I've been thinking about trying a pattern analyser swarm myself.

I keep wanting to figure out a TIE/fo all-stars squad. There are some great pilots, they just don't play especially well with one another - and I can't convince myself that less than 6 TIE/fo is a great idea, but taking Midnight (your best answer to force-laden aces) really bites into the points.

(that may be an overreaction, though, because in 1st edition you were stuck with 4 TIE/fo if you tried to field an ace squad).

3 hours ago, Bucknife said:

(39) Commander Malarus [TIE/fo Fighter]
(1) Crack Shot
Points: 40

You know what? This might actually be one of the best uses for her. Commander Substance Abuse is essentially a disposable asset anyway because once her charges run out she's no use to man nor beast, so you might as well load her up with Crack Shot as well and try and front-load all her threat. Throwing her into people's faces in the hope of a range 1 double-modified crack shot might make her threatening enough to draw fire of Midnight, Muse or Scorch (i.e. the pilots who actually matter in the long run).

I've tried a 50-point version of her with Elusive and Stealth Device, and for the two turns her charges last, she's amazingly good at tanking 2-3 dice attacks (as in; an entire energy shell-armed droid swarm will struggle to hit her) but the problem is that in a swarm, she's rarely the only target and you can't force people to shoot at her.

Hmm...

• Midnight
  • Fanatical
  • Pattern Analyser
• Scorch
  • Fanatical
  • Advanced Optics
• Muse
  • Fanatical
  • Pattern Analyser
• Commander Malarus
  • Crack Shot
• TN-3465

Malarus and 3456 should between them be able to draw attention off the three aces who can actually achieve something long term.

19 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Hmm...

• Midnight
  • Fanatical
  • Pattern Analyser
• Scorch
  • Fanatical
  • Advanced Optics
• Muse
  • Fanatical
  • Pattern Analyser
• Commander Malarus
  • Crack Shot
• TN-3465

Malarus and 3456 should between them be able to draw attention off the three aces who can actually achieve something long term.

Man, I wish I could get midnight to do anything in my games besides die early having done little damage

I feel the same way about midnight. I really like Scorch Null and Epsilon and that's about it. I fly Scorch Epsilon Zeta Survivor, SJ Engineer and Avenger right now. Fun little team with 3x 3 dice ships, s maneuvarable silencers, an "ace" in Null, a SF because back arc and a blocker.

4 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

Man, I wish I could get midnight to do anything in my games besides die early having done little damage

The trick tends to be to have someone much more threatening to draw attention off him. In a multi-ship melee, he's basically just a TIE fighter with a shield.

In a one-on-one engagement later on, he's devastating - probably the best single use of him I've seen is someone facing off against a bunch of republic N-1s.

Anakin Skywalker with Force charge, Elusive reroll and Full Throttle evade ....locked by Midnight. You could hear the player spitting feathers from the other side of the game store.

AO + fanatic is a pretty obvious, built-in combo

Ofc, FOs being only slightly less spontaneously combustible than normal TIEs keeps one from eagerly investing the six points, but there are some pilots that seem to merit it

Self Sufficient "Swarm"

(39) Commander Malarus [TIE/fo Fighter]
(1) Crack Shot
Points: 40

(34) "Scorch" [TIE/fo Fighter]
(2) Fanatical
(4) Advanced Optics
Points: 40

(32) "Longshot" [TIE/fo Fighter]
(2) Fanatical
(4) Advanced Optics
Points: 38

(28) Lieutenant Rivas [TIE/fo Fighter]
Points: 28

(26) Epsilon Squadron Cadet [TIE/fo Fighter]
Points: 26

(26) Epsilon Squadron Cadet [TIE/fo Fighter]
Points: 26

Total points: 198

@ficklegreendice , I'm personally very curious as to whether or not Malarus at I5 with that ability is actually an asset to this squad or a red herring.

He's not exactly Howl or Iden. More like Mauler almost.

......

Edit: I'm very partial to Null for the FO swarm, and would probably try him instead of Malarus if I had to choose.

6 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I'm personally very curious as to whether or not Malarus at I5 with that ability is actually an asset to this squad or a red herring.

I think it's probably the best way to use her. If you think of her as Mauler Mithel with a shield upgrade, it's not far off. Compared to Mauler Mithel she can actually survive being parked at range 1 (at least for a turn) so whilst you don't get a 4-dice attack, getting a 3-dice attack 'focus'/locked with Crack Shot is pretty close. As @ficklegreendice notes, it's mostly about the separate TIE fighters being independent of one another so not being tied into an Iden Versio/Howlrunner-esque bubble.

One thing I'd seriously consider in that swarm is saving a point somewhere to turn one of the cadets into TN-3465. In a swarm with 5 'buddies', her ability is surprisingly scary, because blocking someone and then adding an automatic critical is scary. It's even scarier in a squad with a single initiative value; you can sacrifice the 'loose end' to add criticals to every attacker, because she doesn't die (despite massive overkill) until the end of the initiative step.

• Epsilon Squadron Cadet x 4
• TN-3465

and either

• Muse
  • Fanatical
  • Pattern Analyser
• Lieutenant Rivas

or

• Null
  • Advanced Optics
• Lieutenant Rivas
  • Advanced Optics

6 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I'm very partial to Null for the FO swarm

He's great for his cost. He's no ace, but he makes for a surprisingly competent flanker, especially if you can afford a tech upgrade and - if you really want to push the boat out - afterburners.