One thing a couple people missed about the big ice thing is that they were saying that the TIEs should be reflected in the water, when really there was no water. When you look closely, the ice is asymmetrical from top to bottom and you can see ice/snow falling off the bottom. Therefore it is not a reflection, but something being levitated.

20 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

One thing a couple people missed about the big ice thing is that they were saying that the TIEs should be reflected in the water, when really there was no water. When you look closely, the ice is asymmetrical from top to bottom and you can see ice/snow falling off the bottom. Therefore it is not a reflection, but something being levitated.

Big Dark Side Energy.

I wonder if all of that is inside like this Force Vergence in space or whatever, and Palpatine has been hiding inside it all this time.

So, what I gather from all this, is that we/someone should fund a real survey, done methodologically sound, with proper sampling and all that stash. This way we could discover with significantly more reliability and validity than anecdotal conjecture and inference, what the population actually think about these new films (one could even include a variable or index that designates a level of "Star Wars Fan"-ness [send your criteria to the team of researcher that are going to conduct this survey - perhaps we could get Gallup to do it?]) Because all I hear is ... to quote another franchise: "My side! Your side! My side! Your side!" That our social networks, digital or otherwise, seem to, on a whole (median and/or average, take your pick) have similar ideas and/or agree with us, can't really be surprising to anyone, and should be considered a clear check on our biases. Regardless of our persuasion.

I like floating ice-berg. Whether in space or on/above a planet, that thing is cool looking.

1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:

I wonder if all of that is inside like this Force Vergence in space or whatever, and Palpatine has been hiding inside it all this time.

This. And may I point to Mortis, from TCW. If they're really doing this rounding up of everything, then a new Force-nexus/vergence thing, isn't impossible. But I won't really believe it before I see it.

Oooh I'm all giddy about this! And now with the new Mandalorian trailer I'm itching to get some time in to run a game ...

4 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

This. And may I point to Mortis, from TCW. If they're really doing this rounding up of everything, then a new Force-nexus/vergence thing, isn't impossible. But I won't really believe it before I see it.

Oooh I'm all giddy about this! And now with the new Mandalorian trailer I'm itching to get some time in to run a game ...

You know, for a long time my personal crazy fan theory was that at the end of the saga, Rey and Kylo would end up as the daughter and son of Mortis with maybe Anakin as the father like he was supposed to in the Mortis arc. That's why they connect so much and why there is so much raw power inside them.

But since it is not that known as storyarc and was not that well received by a lot of fans, I don't think they will go there.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:10 AM, DanteRotterdam said:

Both the trailer and poster are pretty light on alien species... I hope the movie isn’t.
Other than that I am very intrigued.

Looks to be no shortage of alien species in The Mandalorian....13 more days

https://www.starwars.com/video/trailer-2-the-mandalorian

8 hours ago, Red Castle said:

You know, for a long time my personal crazy fan theory was that at the end of the saga, Rey and Kylo would end up as the daughter and son of Mortis with maybe Anakin as the father like he was supposed to in the Mortis arc. That's why they connect so much and why there is so much raw power inside them.

But since it is not that known as storyarc and was not that well received by a lot of fans, I don't think they will go there.

From what little's been leaked about Lucas's original treatment for the sequel trilogy, that could very well have been his plan, since his treatments not only would have delved more into the midichlorians but also would have closed the circle and ended the story permanently. That last bit isn't surprising as after the backlash from the prequels he probably just wanted to "finish things off" and then be done with Star Wars.

12 hours ago, Red Castle said:

You know, for a long time my personal crazy fan theory was that at the end of the saga, Rey and Kylo would end up as the daughter and son of Mortis with maybe Anakin as the father like he was supposed to in the Mortis arc. That's why they connect so much and why there is so much raw power inside them.

That's a cool idea, I really like that.

The Mortis arc was (and still is) one of my favorites. I was hankering to rewatch it the other day, but since it isn't on Netflix anymore... Phooey. I also really want to rewatch the Mandalorian arcs. Also phooey.

13 hours ago, Red Castle said:

You know, for a long time my personal crazy fan theory was that at the end of the saga, Rey and Kylo would end up as the daughter and son of Mortis with maybe Anakin as the father like he was supposed to in the Mortis arc. That's why they connect so much and why there is so much raw power inside them.

But since it is not that known as storyarc and was not that well received by a lot of fans, I don't think they will go there.

Out of curiosity, how is that a good thing? Not being snarky or anything, I just don't really understand the fan obsession with tying everything new to everything old. It's one of the most common things I've seen since TFA was first teased, and the fans just went off to crazy town with wild speculations. And it's always X is really Y, with Y either being a legacy character, or somehow tied to them. Snoke is Mace Windu, Rey is a Kenobi. Rey is a Palpatine Clone, clone of Kylo, etc etc etc. I just, why?

I just....I don't see the appeal of this, and this is someone who is a HUGE fan of the legacy concept in storytelling. But I just don't see how it helps, because the common opinion seems to be that just by virtue of having this tie to a previous character, that somehow makes it better. As if substituting fanservice for writing or content is a satisfactory method of storytelling. But we know that isn't the case, because of films like BvS, which did this, but failed miserably. It doesn't improve anything to tie things to the previous stories, all it does is rehash stuff over and over, something Star Wars is already horribly guilty of, and has been for decades.

I can see why some of us will never agree. I liked the general way the Mortis Arch played out but I disliked the totality of how Filoni treats the force.

3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Out of curiosity, how is that a good thing? Not being snarky or anything, I just don't really understand the fan obsession with tying everything new to everything old. It's one of the most common things I've seen since TFA was first teased, and the fans just went off to crazy town with wild speculations. And it's always X is really Y, with Y either being a legacy character, or somehow tied to them. Snoke is Mace Windu, Rey is a Kenobi. Rey is a Palpatine Clone, clone of Kylo, etc etc etc. I just, why?

I just....I don't see the appeal of this, and this is someone who is a HUGE fan of the legacy concept in storytelling. But I just don't see how it helps, because the common opinion seems to be that just by virtue of having this tie to a previous character, that somehow makes it better. As if substituting fanservice for writing or content is a satisfactory method of storytelling. But we know that isn't the case, because of films like BvS, which did this, but failed miserably. It doesn't improve anything to tie things to the previous stories, all it does is rehash stuff over and over, something Star Wars is already horribly guilty of, and has been for decades.

I don't have a lot of time to reply since I must go back to work, but it's more about the poetry of the thing than the legacy or anything.

Since there is an impressive raw power inside both of them (strong enough to scare Luke Skywalker and make Snoke all excited) and that the movies make it clear that they balance each other (Rey's connection growing up in power to meet Kylo's power), I think it would be fitting to see them both being part of the spiritual balance of the Force that Anakin was meant to bring.

But to be clear, I'm perfectly fine with Rey being from no lineage (in fact, I remember saying 'thank you! to myself when it was revealed in episode 8).

13 hours ago, Red Castle said:

You know, for a long time my personal crazy fan theory was that at the end of the saga, Rey and Kylo would end up as the daughter and son of Mortis with maybe Anakin as the father like he was supposed to in the Mortis arc. That's why they connect so much and why there is so much raw power inside them.

But since it is not that known as storyarc and was not that well received by a lot of fans, I don't think they will go there.

Yeah, I spouted such an idea earlier in this thread, or the other trailer thread.

I don't think they'll go there either, but one can hope.

4 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I don't have a lot of time to reply since I must go back to work, but it's more about the poetry of the thing than the legacy or anything.

Since there is an impressive raw power inside both of them (strong enough to scare Luke Skywalker and make Snoke all excited) and that the movies make it clear that they balance each other (Rey's connection growing up in power to meet Kylo's power), I think it would be fitting to see them both being part of the spiritual balance of the Force that Anakin was meant to bring.

But to be clear, I'm perfectly fine with Rey being from no lineage (in fact, I remember saying 'thank you! to myself when it was revealed in episode 8).

Oh wait...the Mortis arc....is that the incredibly silly 3 magic floaty people that keep the Force in check, and the Dark Side one was dying or whatever, and Anakin was actually destined to "bring balance to the Force" by taking his place, that he refused, and thus making all of the franchise some kind of alternate universe timeline (in theory) , because this is the Bad Ending, where Anakin didn't accept his destiny? The thing that felt like an incredibly lame retcon by the show writer to try and justify having Anakin as a hero, without stepping on the canon toes too much while also having him go bad? That arc?

Ugh...yeah no, Glad they didn't go that route. That was actually the arc that made me stop watching The Clone Wars.

I agree. It felt like Filoni was telegraphing a George who was already at that time (at least to me) a lost cause...

I'm glad it ended up just being nonsense that only really concerned that specific realm and it doesn't seem like LFL/Disney has any interest in rehashing any of that in most things, beyond some mentions, and that balance was restored by getting rid of the whole Force being thing.

13 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I'm glad it ended up just being nonsense that only really concerned that specific realm and it doesn't seem like LFL/Disney has any interest in rehashing any of that in most things, beyond some mentions, and that balance was restored by getting rid of the whole Force being thing.

Well, the whole Mortis business did get at least a nod towards the end of Season 4 of Rebels, with imagery of the Mortis trio showing up on the Lothal Temple. Then again, that show was Filoni's baby, so kind of makes sense that he'd include at least a nod to it, especially as that same episode had Ezra venturing into a space between time/worlds that let him pluck Ahsoka out of her presumed death on Malachor at the end of season two, so that may have just been him doubling down on "the Force is weird space magic."

I love the Force being weird space magic...

But when it comes to the movies... There is one thing you can always be sure of: something from a cartoon series or novel or whatever that a good 90% of the audience has never heard of may be referenced as an easter egg, but it will never be important to the plot.

That's why most internet theories about anything can be discarded out of hand.

26 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I'm glad it ended up just being nonsense that only really concerned that specific realm and it doesn't seem like LFL/Disney has any interest in rehashing any of that in most things, beyond some mentions, and that balance was restored by getting rid of the whole Force being thing.

I think it was done, due to the unfortunate component of this prophecy, of "balance" involving infanticide, genocide, a sort of ethnic cleansing, cultural eradication, and the establishment of a tyrannical dictatorship that holds the galaxy in the clutches of terror and death for decades...all to "bring balance" by killing Palpatine at the end, and that's somehow ok. And to a lot of people, yeah that doesn't really make this prophecy that the Jedi were all interested in, sound like a GOOD thing. So Filoni introduced a different "secret" prophecy, that was rejected, thus meaning everything was (and still is I guess) out of balance, thus making it ok for Anakin to become Vader, kill lots of people, have a change of heart, end the empire in a heroic sacrifice, AND not make it seem like this was all "The Will of the Force", because if so, the Force is a jerk. At least that was my take on why it was introduced at all.

Let that be a lesson to you kids! Introduce mystic prophecies into your storyline at your own peril! Because it opens up SO many ugly can of worms that it will totally overshadow the cool story you thought you were making, and will devolve into a "yeah but what about" debate at your table until you want to eat your GM screen.

13 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think it was done, due to the unfortunate component of this prophecy, of "balance" involving infanticide, genocide, a sort of ethnic cleansing, cultural eradication, and the establishment of a tyrannical dictatorship that holds the galaxy in the clutches of terror and death for decades...all to "bring balance" by killing Palpatine at the end, and that's somehow ok. And to a lot of people, yeah that doesn't really make this prophecy that the Jedi were all interested in, sound like a GOOD thing. So Filoni introduced a different "secret" prophecy, that was rejected, thus meaning everything was (and still is I guess) out of balance, thus making it ok for Anakin to become Vader, kill lots of people, have a change of heart, end the empire in a heroic sacrifice, AND not make it seem like this was all "The Will of the Force", because if so, the Force is a jerk. At least that was my take on why it was introduced at all.

Let that be a lesson to you kids! Introduce mystic prophecies into your storyline at your own peril! Because it opens up SO many ugly can of worms that it will totally overshadow the cool story you thought you were making, and will devolve into a "yeah but what about" debate at your table until you want to eat your GM screen.

I think a lot of it like... breaks down if you delve to deep into a lot of the mysticism set-up by Lucas. Like, there's a level of interesting thought that comes with the idea that the Force has no 'intrinsic' morality on its own, and that it's taken basically until Rey - and maybe Ben, depending on if he gets redeemed or not - to truly understand what a balanced Force really is. And that Anakin could only learn that through becoming Vader... but he somehow missed it until the very, very end? (And the idea that the Dark Side is unnatural because it's a wound, and that emotion and death are part of the Force, just no one has been able to truly grasp it until now).

But, it's hard to say whether or not it's intended, at least with Lucas, BUT I think that's what the Sequel Trilogy has been telling in regards to the Force storyline. Not having a prophecy looming over head, but more about someone finally learning the lesson that the Force has been trying to teach people for... 70 odd years or so, at least in the context of the film timelines, is an interesting angle that I think has ultimately been a boon to the story, imo. Especially so if Rey ends up remaining a nobody, because then the idea of it took someone without some special connection to the Force due to blood to learn it is compelling, but you can still have it be connected to the Skywalker bloodline because Ben is there.

13 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I think a lot of it like... breaks down if you delve to deep into a lot of the mysticism set-up by Lucas.

Delve too deep? *looks around the fan base* You do know you're talking about Star Wars fans right? A franchise that has like a 5 page backstory writeup for a character that has maybe 2.4 seconds of screen time in a film. A fan base that will happily run off on their own with speculation and theories about the most ridiculously minute and insignificant details. A fan base that will write essay length articles on how the Sith are actually heroes, and the Jedi are evil, ignoring things like how the Sith happily engage in things like murder and enslavement of entire planets for personal gain. Yeah....that's pretty much guaranteed to happen. Which is why you don't do prophecy content. Because SOMEBODY out there, who is actually more knowledgable about moral philosophy, and the other disciplines being copied from, will poke holes in your story logic, and twist it on itself, making what you think is a heroes arc, turn into the instruction manual on how to justify mass slaughter.

And honestly, the whole prophecy thing about Anakin didn't actually add anything to the story, just like midichlorians didn't either. They just muddied the waters of the narrative. And you can tell this, because there is almost zero mention of the prophecy after Phantom Menace, and it never actually drives the story in the films, at all. You can easily justify having Qui-Gon wanting to train Anakin, simply because he sees him as a powerful Force user, and a kid that he took a liking to. You can easily justify Kenobi training him, as simply fulfilling the dying wish of his Master, and because he agrees that Anakin would make a good Jedi. The prophecy doesn't factor into his reasoning for going Dark, as that's entirely due to his Flaw of being unable to accept the potential loss of his loved ones. And it doesn't have anything to do with why he would turn on Palpatine, when simply having a change of heart, and wanting to save his son instead of doom him to death, or a life of pain and slavery is more than enough motivation.

It's just, messy writing, just like time travel writing. As Luke put it "this isn't going to turn out like you think!" When you dip into the prophecy well for your storytelling.

Oh, no, I very much agree, and absolutely I know it happens.

Like, Star Wars fans - and I mean the ones who are into the Deep Lore - are often their own worst enemies. Sometimes it's almost... better to approach it from a casual standpoint? Like, yeah, obviously it's fine to be super into something, but especially when it comes to films/shows, it helps to manage expectations and separate the goblin brain that holds all the fan theories from the other part that understands its not rational to expect the actual films/shows to play on those theories.

****, I've looked into it too deep, and used to when I was a kid, but now I sort of just let things remain a mystery, mostly in regards to the Force, and it's so much more satisfying engaging with Star Wars coming from that mindset.

(I'll speculate day in and day out about stuff like The Mandalorian, though, because its not about prophecies or mysticism and more about cool people in shiny armor shooting pew pew guns.)

14 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

(I'll speculate day in and day out about stuff like The Mandalorian, though, because its not about prophecies or mysticism and more about cool people in shiny armor shooting pew pew guns.)

Yup, I think that's all of us. Twice over.

Agreed. Although the whole “Mandalorian thing” never set well with my either. **** I am a grognard...

I’d much rather had it be any old bounty hunter.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yup, I think that's all of us. Twice over.

Not me, I'm not at all interested in the Mandalorian, as I find the fan bases obsession with a side character that got trumped up in importance by one particular writer, to be silly and uninteresting. So I'll just pass on that show thank you

Just now, KungFuFerret said:

Not me, I'm not at all interested in the Mandalorian, as I find the fan bases obsession with a side character that got trumped up in importance by one particular writer, to be silly and uninteresting. So I'll just pass on that show thank you

*facepalm*

He looked cool, but aside from that (if I dare admit it, I was never THAT big a Fett fan) the Mandalorians as a culture are just straight-up awesome. My response was more about the general concept than about the Mandalorian show though.

As far as I see it, The Mandalorian is going to properly earn the reputation Boba Fett didn't really earn.