5 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

However in TFA suddenly after Empire has fallen (even assuming a big majority if Empire military escaped) somehow First Order cut off from Republic/Empire colossal resources managed to build not even another Death Start but SUPER DEATH START INSIDE A FREAKING PLANET. Where did they get resources for it? Building Death Start if I recall correctly took like 30 years? 20 years? With all might of Empire.

It's been suggested (I'm not sure if it's canon) that the First Order was finishing something that the Empire started with Starkiller Base. I believe that it is canon that the Empire had come up with plans for Starkiller Base (an Easter egg in Rogue 1). Also, building Star Killer base might (I stress might) not've been as big a job as building the Death Star because the infrastructure of the planet, not to mention the gravity, was already there. Also, the First Order had ~25 years or so to build the thing. (Allowing for 5 years of finished time and time before the Imperial remnant/FO started construction)

20 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Coming from my personal experience, I'd say that only about 5% of Star Wars fans liked TLJ, because there is literally only 1 person I've talked to (in person) who liked it, and he conditioning it all on IX tying it all together. I am not so blind as to assume that those who dislike TLJ are the majority but dismissing them as fringe is absurd.

Strong disagree. Every poll on every site I have seen showed that the nes disliking the movie are a vocal minority indeed. Your anecdotes mean nothing in that matter.
In fact even in this thread it is the same three guys posting the same arguments over and over. Thus a vocal minority.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

It's been suggested (I'm not sure if it's canon) that the First Order was finishing something that the Empire started with Starkiller Base. I believe that it is canon that the Empire had come up with plans for Starkiller Base (an Easter egg in Rogue 1). Also, building Star Killer base might (I stress might) not've been as big a job as building the Death Star because the infrastructure of the planet, not to mention the gravity, was already there. Also, the First Order had ~25 years or so to build the thing. (Allowing for 5 years of finished time and time before the Imperial remnant/FO started construction)

It's still a lot of "suggest" and "maybe" and it's a big stretch. We talk about something few times bigger than the Death Star.

And I fully understand that SW was never much "science" fiction and everything there should be treated without looking too much at "is it realistic?". I know and always loved star wars for that.

But Faster than Light Laser beam?? Light travels faster than light? And it splits and turns by itself? That's too much even for SW....

22 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

Actually it wasn't financial success. Disney expected every SW movie to make over $2 billion easy. Plus merchandises/toys from it (which are in decline since 2015% by 40-50% because people are not interested in new trilogy character toys). If you want good analysis why TLJ wasn't financial success I recommend to read this: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-people-saying-The-Last-Jedi-was-a-failure-when-it-made-1-3-billion

Do you have Disney's books somewhere? Did someone show you them? Seriously, where is the secret sauce people who are mad about TLJ claim to have? Did you talk to Bob Iger, Alan Horn, and Kathleen Kennedy? Did they take you and all the other upset fans to lunch and explain why it was a failure?

You can't make that claim because no one but Disney knows that fact. Film studios don't release their books, they never have. Also, quora is not a reliable source of anything. Who are these people? Are they actual financial analysts or internet people doing arm chair analysis? Even the Forbes article some guy wrote isn't necessarily truth, because it makes a lot of wildly weird claims.

TLJ absolutely made a profit. No question. We don't actually know if it met whatever expectations they had or not, because no one but Disney knows the actual numbers. But even a conservative number, and guess vs. production cost, 600 million is nothing to sneeze at for profit. That doesn't even consider merchandise returns, home video purchases, digital purchases, ect. ect. ect.

Also, all second chapters of a trilogy make less money than the first, because people who don't want to see it after the first, don't go. Just because it didn't make as much money as TFA, doesn't mean it was a failure, on its own. The same thing happened to AotC and ESB. And then the final entries tend to tick up - this also happened with RotS and RotJ.

3 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Strong disagree. Every poll on every site I have seen showed that the nes disliking the movie are a vocal minority indeed. Your anecdotes mean nothing in that matter.
In fact even in this thread it is the same three guys posting the same arguments over and over. Thus a vocal minority.

Funny, I only see 3 or 4 guys frequently posting on your side.

I'd appreciate a source, however, if it is a poll of people who watched TLJ, it will be relatively irrelevant, because my point is as regards Star Wars fans, not people who went to see it in general.

My point is that there are a lot of people who didn't like TLJ, and it is very hard to pin down numbers on it.

A clarification on my anecdote, there is one person I didn't factor in on it, and that was my younger sister who isn't really a Star Wars fan and liked it mostly because she thought the porgs were cute.

Well you can check out one of the polls on The Star Wars Underworlds FB page. (I have since left FB so I can’t link it). But there too (and even below the post itself) it showed the same picture. Of the around 1000 respondents the results were overwhelmingly positive yet the replies? Not so much.

But if we can talk anecdotes I (a 44 year old man) know zero people in real life who dislike the Last Jedi. None. And I am not talking casual fans but people that grew up on SW, people that travel all over the world for SW celebration, people that play in a weekly star wars rpg group at my table.

9 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Funny, I only see 3 or 4 guys frequently posting on your side.

I'd appreciate a source, however, if it is a poll of people who watched TLJ, it will be relatively irrelevant, because my point is as regards Star Wars fans, not people who went to see it in general.

My point is that there are a lot of people who didn't like TLJ, and it is very hard to pin down numbers on it.

A clarification on my anecdote, there is one person I didn't factor in on it, and that was my younger sister who isn't really a Star Wars fan and liked it mostly because she thought the porgs were cute.

But why aren't they fans? What is a "Star Wars fan"? What is the definition?

11 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

A clarification on my anecdote, there is one person I didn't factor in on it, and that was my younger sister who isn't really a Star Wars fan and liked it mostly because she thought the porgs were cute.

I have similar experience. Generally my friends who are not SW fans (they just watched movies when they were younger and remember they were cool) kind of liked new trilogy (wasn't great, but solid movies for them) and didn't rewatch it even once or buy bluerays etc. They just consumed yet another blockbuster in theater. Same like most viewers of the MCU didn't read even one MCU comics before.

But every SW fan I know (like ones who read books, comics, played video games, were interested in lore, read expanded universe, watched TV series etc.) disliked new trilogy and especially TLJ.

I think there is just much more of the first type of people as most people nowadays just consume new entertainment.

Simillar is with video games. Even heavy criticized video games (like Call of Duty games in last few years or last Battlefield or some Ubisoft games) with bad review always sell well, even if below expectations, and they still make profit. Because most people are just like "ow, new CoD game, gonna buy it". They don't care about anything beyond that. It's just new entertainment. To add something to that- 50% players don't finish up games they buy. Because they are not really involved in franchise, they just consume entertainment and move to another one.

In my opinion it's the same with SW.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

But why aren't they fans? What is a "Star Wars fan"? What is the definition?

It is a way to dismiss the people that don’t think along your lines.

1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

It is a way to dismiss the people that don’t think along your lines.

Agreed, it's the "No True Scotsman!" fallacy.

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

I think you need to get of your high horse and stop acting like your taste is somehow special.

And you need to stop being passive-aggressive when people don't agree with your views.

3 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

But every SW fan I know (like ones who read books, comics, played video games, were interested in lore, read expanded universe, watched TV series etc.) disliked new trilogy and especially TLJ.

And that's the key point, that you know. And based on the criteria, it's a purity test, one set up that anyone who doesn't give a flying flip about all the ancillary material (especially the Expanded Universe which I remind you is no longer canon and has no real relevance to the new media).

In contrast, I know a large number of folks that would pass your little purity test, and found TLJ to be quite enjoyable, if not one of the best films in the entire franchise, far surpassing ESB (which as a reminder got similar vitrol and dismissal from movie-goers as TLJ is getting).

Hahahahaha I am so not passive aggressive here.
You think that the fact that you dislike a movie elevates you over those who do somehow and that is something I reacted on.
You seem to labor under this feeling of superiority but all you have done so far is regurgitate the same bs everyone else who disliked the movie has already. Only with worse spelling and even thinner veilt sexism.

2 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

It is a way to dismiss the people that don’t think along your lines.

Alright, my sister has trouble remembering just who exactly Obi-Wan Kenobi is. She went to and enjoyed TLJ. Is she a Star Wars fan?

The reason it is hard to pin down is that there is no definition. I try very hard to avoid the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I would call the people you described Star Wars fans. I would describe many of my friends (who don't like TLJ) as Star Wars fans. And most of them liked TFA.

You also make use of what StarkJunior accused me of (entirely wrongly, as I did no such thing). You used an anecdote to say that people who don't like TLJ are fringe.

Just now, Donovan Morningfire said:

And that's the key point, that you know. And based on the criteria, it's a purity test, one set up that anyone who doesn't give a flying flip about all the ancillary material (especially the Expanded Universe which I remind you is no longer canon and has no real relevance to the new media).

In contrast, I know a large number of folks that would pass your little purity test, and found TLJ to be quite enjoyable, if not one of the best films in the entire franchise, far surpassing ESB (which as a reminder got similar vitrol and dismissal from movie-goers as TLJ is getting).

Would you say the same, in reverse, to Danterotterdam?

Just now, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You used an anecdote to say that people who don't like TLJ are fringe.

Nope I provided a poll AND I told an anecdote after literally saying I was going to provide an anecdote.

1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

sexism.

Now where are you getting that?

1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Hahahahaha I am so not passive aggressive here.
You think that the fact that you dislike a movie elevates you over those who do somehow and that is something I reacted on.
You seem to labor under this feeling of superiority but all you have done so far is regurgitate the same bs everyone else who disliked the movie has already. Only with worse spelling and even thinner veilt sexism.

Now, aside from the accusation of bs, people who dislike the same movie are likely to have similar opinions on it.

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Would you say the same, in reverse, to Danterotterdam?

No, because he's not trying to pass his opinions of as indisputable facts, something that Benny and even you keep trying to do, making unsubstantiated claims as being irrefutable "facts" when they are the farthest thing.

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

Nope I provided a poll AND I told an anecdote after literally saying I was going to provide an anecdote.

Yeah, and you used the anecdote to make your point. It was clearly marked as an anecdote, but it was still an anecdote. You can't dismiss one anecdote and then use another anecdote to make the opposite point.

Note that I explicitly did not use my anecdote to make a point as regards what the fanbase split is on TLJ.

Just now, Donovan Morningfire said:

No, because he's not trying to pass his opinions of as indisputable facts, something that Benny and even you keep trying to do, making unsubstantiated claims as being irrefutable "facts" when they are the farthest thing.

What unsubstantiated claims have I made, exactly? And what am I trying to push as indisputable fact?

3 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Hahahahaha I am so not passive aggressive here.
You think that the fact that you dislike a movie elevates you over those who do somehow and that is something I reacted on.
You seem to labor under this feeling of superiority but all you have done so far is regurgitate the same bs everyone else who disliked the movie has already. Only with worse spelling and even thinner veilt sexism.

On the other hand I wrote plenty of arguments why I disliked them and all you do is write strawman posts without actually referring or counter-argument reasons why I didn't like movies. I can count at least 5 things I mentioned directly from the movies that made me dislike them. Yet you don't try to discuss, just to diminish.

It's like discussion with child who just goes "no, you". Ok, but why? "no, you". And so on.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Now, aside from the accusation of bs, people who dislike the same movie are likely to have similar opinions on it.

They're entitled to dislike the film or the new media, but they're not entitled to expect to be able to deride the film and the people who liked it without those folks who enjoyed that material shooting back.

Just now, Benny89 said:

It's like discussion with child who just goes "no, you". Ok, but why? "no, you". And so on.

Pot, meet kettle.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Now where are you getting that?

“Merry [sic] Sue”

”the purple general”

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, and you used the anecdote to make your point. It was clearly marked as an anecdote, but it was still an anecdote. You can't dismiss one anecdote and then use another anecdote to make the opposite point.

All that did was to show you HOW ANECDOTES don’t matter. This was literally my point! For every anecdote you can provide there is literally someone who can give an opposing account.

6 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Only with worse spelling and even thinner veilt sexism.

I am not native speaker so yes, my spelling isn't best, but where did you get that sexism from? End of arguments so we go into accusations now? Will I be racist in your next post?

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

What unsubstantiated claims have I made, exactly? And what am I trying to push as indisputable fact?

Wow, you do have a short memory span, don't you?

Starkjunior's already called out your BS earlier in this thread, so you might want to scroll back to refresh your memory.