57 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I don’t know why people are this upset about not learning more about Snoke. He was never a big deal (storywise) to begin with...

I don't know why it's bad to care about him either...

Who said it was bad?

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Who said it was bad?

Well you seemed to be rather derisive of those who thought he should have some manner of a backstory.

I haven't been saying that they need to do a tell-all in the movie, but even Snoke's own Age of Resistance comic didn't give us any information on him. He came out of nowhere and left into nowhere with no explanation, no history, no nothing. Anything about how he came to helm the First Order would be helpful. Maybe some of it will be explained in IX, but since he is dead, I think that there is a decent chance that they won't really cover him.

6 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I don’t know why people are this upset about not learning more about Snoke. He was never a big deal (storywise) to begin with...

You know, I just rewatched Episode 3 with some friends tonight (Star Wars marathon leading to Episode 9), and when I watched Dooku died, I could not help but draw some comparaison to Snoke.

We are introduced to Dooku in Episode 2 and all we know about him is that he was a jedi and now leader of the Separatist army, apprentice to Darth Sidious. He's presented as being an important character and one of the main villain going into Episode 3. Then we get into Episode 3, and 10 minutes later, Dooku's dead. His death serving to advance Anakin's story, just like Snoke's death serve to advance Kylo's story.

Now I can't remember, but was Dooku's death right at the start of episode 3 upsetted the fan as much as Snoke's death did? 20 years later, now that we have a lot more background on Dooku, are fans still upset about his death?

1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

You know, I just rewatched Episode 3 with some friends tonight (Star Wars marathon leading to Episode 9), and when I watched Dooku died, I could not help but draw some comparaison to Snoke.

We are introduced to Dooku in Episode 2 and all we know about him is that he was a jedi and now leader of the Separatist army, apprentice to Darth Sidious. He's presented as being an important character and one of the main villain going into Episode 3. Then we get into Episode 3, and 10 minutes later, Dooku's dead. His death serving to advance Anakin's story, just like Snoke's death serve to advance Kylo's story.

Now I can't remember, but was Dooku's death right at the start of episode 3 upsetted the fan as much as Snoke's death did? 20 years later, now that we have a lot more background on Dooku, are fans still upset about his death?

Granted, there'd been a three-year multimedia project filling the gap between AotC and RotS that gave us some of those details on Dooku, but those were mostly consumed by "hardcore" fans. The people complaining about Snoke's lack of backstory in the films are likely from that camp.

I don't think general audiences really had any problem with Dooku's or Snoke's lack of significant backstory in the films, it wasn't exactly pertinent to the story being told.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Well you seemed to be rather derisive of those who thought he should have some manner of a backstory.

All I said was that I don’t know why people are upset. If you get derision from that then that is all you.

2 hours ago, A7T said:

Granted, there'd been a three-year multimedia project filling the gap between AotC and RotS that gave us some of those details on Dooku, but those were mostly consumed by "hardcore" fans.

Yes, and after the fact.

2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Yes, and after the fact.

****, the Dooku's Big "Book" of Backstory didn't even come out until this year.

6 hours ago, Red Castle said:

You know, I just rewatched Episode 3 with some friends tonight (Star Wars marathon leading to Episode 9), and when I watched Dooku died, I could not help but draw some comparaison to Snoke.

We are introduced to Dooku in Episode 2 and all we know about him is that he was a jedi and now leader of the Separatist army, apprentice to Darth Sidious. He's presented as being an important character and one of the main villain going into Episode 3. Then we get into Episode 3, and 10 minutes later, Dooku's dead. His death serving to advance Anakin's story, just like Snoke's death serve to advance Kylo's story.

Now I can't remember, but was Dooku's death right at the start of episode 3 upsetted the fan as much as Snoke's death did? 20 years later, now that we have a lot more background on Dooku, are fans still upset about his death?

I can't say that I recall ever have heard even minor misgivings about it from the "who is Snoke" crowd, or anybody else for that matter.

And while there was some talk about it being a waste to kill a cool character like Maul after only one film, there was zero complaining about him being just a pretty face without a history.

I can only conclude that the nature of fandom has changed significantly over a small time, or that a certain subsection of the fandom is going out of its way to complain about things without havng to say out loud what really is bothering them about the new films.

All good points, but don’t forget there is an enormous amount of peer pressure where ‘fans’ constantly pressure others into thinking the way they do as well and calling into question the ‘fandom’ of others who do not share their sentiments.
The internet is not helping in that aspect either... I am not the biggest of prequel fans but even I was embarrassed for how people who disliked them as well went about when I read through some threads on theforce.net a few years ago. The vitriol and viscousness with which these things are propelled into the public sphere is unfortunate to say the least and downright toxic to say the worst.

2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

All good points, but don’t forget there is an enormous amount of peer pressure where ‘fans’ constantly pressure others into thinking the way they do as well and calling into question the ‘fandom’ of others who do not share their sentiments.
The internet is not helping in that aspect either... I am not the biggest of prequel fans but even I was embarrassed for how people who disliked them as well went about when I read through some threads on theforce.net a few years ago. The vitriol and viscousness with which these things are propelled into the public sphere is unfortunate to say the least and downright toxic to say the worst.

Reminds me of two cases I witnessed where someone's opinion change completely regarding The Last Jedi.

First, there's a guy with who I play X-Wing that when he saw Episode 8 sent me a messenger to ask me what I thought and tell me that he liked it, except for the execution of one scene (Leia's scene). Fast forward 3 months later, after/during all the backlash the movie got on the internet and I saw him post a message saying something about Episode 8 having to be erased from canon, that episode 9 should start with the characters waking up from a dream. I was intrigued by his 180 of opinion, so I started to discuss it with him on messenger (didn't want to turn it into a facebook show) and all his arguments, all his reasons for hating the movie were pretty much copy/paste of what youtubers were saying about the movie. Now, I don't mind someone changing his opinion in general, but in this case what I found strange and made me doubt that it was really his opinion is that whatever the reasons, it was never really deep, he could never really explain it. He was repeating what he had heard, or saw, and that's it.

Other case is my good friend with who I went to see The Last Jedi in theater. He liked it, and it didn't change. He still like it and think it's one of the best Star Wars movie. But, I noticed somethng strange. He hate Porgs. He really really hate Porgs. Which I'm okay with. Only strange thing is I remember him laughing (in a good way) in the theater when Porgs were playing with Luke saber, or when Chewie was about to eat one. So he didn't like them at first, or at least didn't mind. But I remember spending the evening with him and one of his friends and we got to discuss The Last Jedi. And his friends started to talk about the Porgs, saying how much they were bad and implying that you must be stupid or a child to like them. It got me thinking that he probably convinced my friend with this idea.

Gonna skip it, same as I skipped (good decision as it turned out) TLJ. My issue with this movie is:

1. I don't care about main characters. They didn't get any development, they just are. Uninteresting characters doing things that don't interest me.

2. Merry Sue Ray already proved she is super Jedi so I don't really care. She didn't need any significant training, she already beat Emo Ren twice - so what I should be excited about their third duel? She will beat him again....

3. Bringing back Palpatine because they can't find any other way to explain anything in their trilogy so we will go with "Palpatine is behind it all!" move here. Which also diminish a sacrifice of Anakin at the end of RoJ and him bringing a balance to the Force. Also it will turn out that Rey is somehow connected with Palpatine cause we also need to copy that "Luke, we are related!" "Noooo" thing. Because Disney has no ideas of their own.

4. Resistance fleet was destroyed, no they have full fleet back. Also what does it matter if First Order has tons of destroyers- we have now super weapons to destroy them. Just ram light-speed vessels on them and be done with it.

5. C3PO saying "goodbye friends" to Rey and Fin (most boring character ever...). When they became friends? Did they have many adventures together like C3PO and R2 had with Luke, han and Leia?

6. Emo Ren is exactly what now? He runs around like headless chicken and do what? What are his motives? What are his goals? Loosing again vs Ray? Will he now become an servant of Palpatine because he doesn't know what to do?

7. 5-6 different endings that failed tested audience? So there is no vision of how this sage should end- there is only a xls-based calculation of what will rack most $.

The new trilogy is one big disappointment. TFA wasn't that bad till moment when Fin stood more than 1 sec with Lightsaber vs Emo Ren and when Ray suddenly became Jedi Master during their duel. This is when I knew it will go to ****. Ow and also "faster that light laser that can split out of nowhere...".

Disney has no idea what they do, no respect for lore or characters and they simply do not understand why Luke became so cool while Ray is just....boring

I mean, if you skipped TLJ, then yeah, you're going to have... odd viewpoints? I'm not sure why you'd be complaining about a movie where you missed a whole 1/3 of the background info. Like, if you don't want to engage with it, cool, but don't complain when you don't have half the info. It's like not voting and then complaining about who won. You're discussing from a disingenuous stance. "I don't like this! It's crap!" "Did you see it or plan to?" "No, but I don't like it!"

Also, point 7 is complete nonsense - none of that is even remotely true. It's YouTube 'pundit' nonsense and rumorbait to draw audiences and be 'in' on the latest outrage since that drives views and subscriber numbers. They didn't shoot 5-6 endings, just like Disney doesn't 'buy up tickets in movie theaters' or pay reviewers, and every single blockbuster movie has reshoots nowadays, often just to get more pick-up shots or little things they missed during actual production. Nonsense fake fan outrage, because hating Star Wars is the new way to be 'cool'.

Just say you aren't interested in the new trilogy and move on.

1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:

I mean, if you skipped TLJ, then yeah, you're going to have... odd viewpoints?

I have seen it, but not in theaters. Was good decision for what they made out of Luke... how much you can destroy such iconic character is beyond me. Worst SW movie and so many stupid things like flying Leia... Not to mention purple general who was so stupid it's beyond me and weaponizing light speed which was most idiotic thing you could do to SW. Now everyone should just produce slug missiles size of X-Wing and fire them on enemy destroyers/dreadnoughts. You can't even dodge that or out-maneuver faster-then-light missile....

So, no. My viewpoitns are not odd.

32 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

So, no. My viewpoitns are not odd.

Well that is just not true...[joke!]

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

Well that is just not true...

View points or reviews or how we perceive a medium (be it movie or book or game etc.) is highly subjective.

Saying your viewpoints are odd without counter-argument is very rude. Of course StarkJunior said that believing I didn't see a TLJ at all, which I corrected.

If you on the other hand think my viewpoitns are odd, it might be better to tell why instead of "no, you".

Because I can just say no "yes, it's true" and you can again reply wth "that is just not true" and we can loop like that forever....

Okay, first Dooku: Just from the movies, we knew that he was Yoda's apprentice, Qui-gon's master, a fallen Jedi, the apprentice of Darth Sidious, the leader of the CIS, and no one super important. He wasn't the big bad, and he wasn't set up to be the big bad.

Now Maul: He had one voice line, the dude wasn't all that important. Nor was he set up to be. He was portrayed as a brute who had one job, a job he did fairly well until his arrogance got the better of him. (I loved Maul, especially in the later stuff. I'm just saying it how it is)

The important thing about these characters? Neither of them were mysterious.

Now Snoke: We know that he can use the force, that he turned Kylo to the dark side, and we know that he heads the First Order. He IS shrouded in mystery. Regardless of whether you think that he is important to the story ongoing, he came out of NOWHERE to head perhaps the greatest military power the galaxy had ever seen, he is important (not to mention he turned Kylo to the dark side).

7 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

All I said was that I don’t know why people are upset. If you get derision from that then that is all you.

Dismissive would have been a better word, I knew it was a "D" word, but I was brainlocking and couldn't think of it.

As far as people who didn't like/hate TLJ being "a vocal minority" whose opinions you don't seem to think matter, regardless of the actual statistics, which I think would be hard to pin down, they are a much larger group than you are letting on. Coming from my personal experience, I'd say that only about 5% of Star Wars fans liked TLJ, because there is literally only 1 person I've talked to (in person) who liked it, and he conditioning it all on IX tying it all together. I am not so blind as to assume that those who dislike TLJ are the majority but dismissing them as fringe is absurd. And when I say only one person I talked to, I don't mean just in my circle of friends, I mean acquaintances, random people, and friends. Even people I don't like very much.
Again, this is anecdotal evidence, and I do not propose it to suggest that most fans hate TLJ, I'm just saying it isn't as fringe as you make it out to be.

As for the line about the guy hating Porgs, but laughing at them, that isn't evidence that he secretly likes them. I laughed at stuff in TLJ even when I thought that the joke was stupid (ly timed, or whatever, not necessarily a bad joke), just because some things are inherently funny.

Before you call me a hater or say I've been brainwashed by "The Fandom Menace" or whatever, I formed my opinions myself, during and after the movie. I hadn't even listened to non-spoiler reviews! I was so excited about it I didn't even want hints about it. Therefore, my opinions are my own. I don't even listen to the Fandom Menace. There is one guy who is a part of it that I listen to on occasion because I think he's funny.

13 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

I have seen it, but not in theaters. Was good decision for what they made out of Luke... how much you can destroy such iconic character is beyond me.

So, no. My viewpoitns are not odd.

4 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Well that is just not true...

Oh, hey look! more dismissiveness. Some might even call that derision.

If all you say is "I skipped it", then it's not that odd for someone to infer you haven't seen it. If you did, that's fine. I still don't agree with your view points.

Also, like point 4 - there's a year time skip between TLJ and TRoS. A lot of stuff can happen in a year, and they can rebuild. In fact, one of the comics I believe is about Poe and Leia doing just that. Also, part of the story of TRoS could be them rebuilding the fleet.

It's like three or four shots in the trailer, that's not enough to dismiss it off-hand, especially since we're missing context from the longest SW movie to date.

6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'd say that only about 5% of Star Wars fans liked TLJ

This is nonsense. You can't claim a percentage like that. Personal anecdotes are not evidence of anything, not matter what side someone falls on. 5% of Star Wars fans? How many Star Wars fans are there total? What qualifies as a Star Wars fan? Is there a universal definition of what a 'fan' is? Is it only meaning hard core fans? Or do people who only casually engage but love it just as much count? Does a fan mean people who grew up on the OT or the PT? Or do the new Star Wars fans who were brought in by the ST count? I could go on.

You can't make a claim like that, because it has no data or basis to back it up.

And the people who are fringe and not at all representative of the majority? The specific group of angry fans who write articles on the internet about how their life was ruined because something in Star Wars made them mad.

You don't make 1.3 billion dollars if only 5% percent of fans like something. It's just nonsense.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

This is nonsense. You can't claim a percentage like that. Personal anecdotes are not evidence of anything, not matter what side someone falls on. 5% of Star Wars fans? How many Star Wars fans are there total? What qualifies as a Star Wars fan? Is there a universal definition of what a 'fan' is? Is it only meaning hard core fans? Or do people who only casually engage but love it just as much count?

You can't make a claim like that, because it has no data or basis to back it up.

And the people who are fringe? The specific group of angry fans who write articles on the internet about how their life was ruined because something in Star Wars made them mad.

You don't make 1.3 billion dollars if only 5% percent of fans like something. It's just nonsense.

What the kriff!? You took that entirely out of context. I said that if I only looked at the anecdote, that was the number I'd come up with. You missed my point entirely.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

If all you say is "I skipped it", then it's not that odd for someone to infer you haven't seen it. If you did, that's fine. I still don't agree with your view points.

Also, like point 4 - there's a year time skip between TLJ and TRoS. A lot of stuff can happen in a year, and they can rebuild. In fact, one of the comics I believe is about Poe and Leia doing just that. Also, part of the story of TRoS could be them rebuilding the fleet.

It's like three or four shots in the trailer, that's not enough to dismiss it off-hand, especially since we're missing context from the longest SW movie to date.

That is fair since I said "I skipped it" without adding "in theater". So that's on me.

Year is hardly enough to build entire fleet. Also if that fleet was hidden - where it was during TFA attack. At least in Old Trilogy we could justify how Empire managed to build Death Start - they had resources from all across Empire, thousands of systems, trillions of credits, millions of engineers, slaves etc.

However in TFA suddenly after Empire has fallen (even assuming a big majority if Empire military escaped) somehow First Order cut off from Republic/Empire colossal resources managed to build not even another Death Start but SUPER DEATH START INSIDE A FREAKING PLANET. Where did they get resources for it? Building Death Start if I recall correctly took like 30 years? 20 years? With all might of Empire.

Now one of the points in TLJ was that "the last remaining of Resistance" were chased down by First Order. Now suddenly in an year (or ****, even 3) we have full military-grade fleet back.

Also how fleets of huge starship even matter now if you can just use faster-than-light slug missiles on them and destroy them without effort?

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

And the people who are fringe? The specific group of angry fans who write articles on the internet about how their life was ruined because something in Star Wars made them mad.

Yeah, those are fairly fringe. However, in some circumstances, I can understand how they feel and why. For example: Someone who saw Luke as a role model growing up would not be destroyed by the way TLJ treated Luke, but I can see why it would feel like a gut-punch.

Somewhat extreme example, but picture someone who discovers that their father wasn't who they thought they were. It is nowhere near to the same extent, but it is a similar concept.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

And the people who are fringe? The specific group of angry fans who write articles on the internet about how their life was ruined because something in Star Wars made them mad.

Yeah, those are fairly fringe. However, in some circumstances, I can understand how they feel and why. For example: Someone who saw Luke as a role model growing up would not be destroyed by the way TLJ treated Luke, but I can see why it would feel like a gut-punch.

Somewhat extreme example, but picture someone who discovers that their father wasn't who they thought they were. It is nowhere near to the same extent, but it is a similar concept.

6 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

You don't make 1.3 billion dollars if only 5% percent of fans like something. It's just nonsense.

Actually it wasn't financial success. Disney expected every SW movie to make over $2 billion easy. Plus merchandises/toys from it (which are in decline since 2015% by 40-50% because people are not interested in new trilogy character toys). If you want good analysis why TLJ wasn't financial success I recommend to read this: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-people-saying-The-Last-Jedi-was-a-failure-when-it-made-1-3-billion

16 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Oh, hey look! more dismissiveness. Some might even call that derision

I’d call that tongue in cheek humor. But that does not translate well online I guess.