8 minutes ago, Harlock999 said:

EDIT: The Marvel films are still going strong due to capable casts, new ideas, and a sincere love for the interconnected world that’s been created.

I'm not much of a Trek fan, so I'll take you at your word about the status of things regarding the NextGen movies.

With the MCU, I think what does help keep things exciting is just the sheer variety of characters they've got to work with. Granted, for the bulk of the films Marvel Studios didn't have access to their A-listers (X-Man, Fantastic Four, and especially Spider-Man, who they only got towards the later end of the Infinity Saga), requiring them to dig into their B-list and C-list hero cast. With how long Marvel Comics has been in publishing comics, they've a huge bench of characters to pull from. Heck, I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when they were working on what would become Phase 1 and it dawned on them that they had the movie rights to the majority of the iconic Avengers roster.

That they've been able to do roughly the same origin story for each of the heroes and still have the films be generally entertaining for broader audiences says something to the quality of the cast and crew. And even many of the casting choices that made people scratch their heads ("Mark Ruffalo as the Hulk? RDJr as Tony Stark? Isn't Chris Evans more of a comedic actor?" are some of the ones I remember hearing) have since proven to be solid choices.

Even then, the MCU wouldn't have done nearly as well without Kevin Feige at the helm. The man knows his stuff, and like you said has a sincere and abiding love for the lore of the Marvel Universe while at the same time not being unwilling to change things up as needed.

2 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

Oof, the second I see someone using the term "normies" and activists unironically in regards to SW and the ST, that's a big flag for me.

You see a flag. I see an *******.
I am sick and tired of these morons who think Star Wars changed while not seeing what is clear yo everyone with half a brain. That it is they themselves who were either blind to SW’s messages when they were young or that they grew up to be the villain in the story they used to love.

2 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

13 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Yeah. When you said "I Hope it isn't" to me that implied that you felt that it was not as good an outcome if it was light on aliens. I didn't envision you having a panic attack because I used the word concerned though.

Oh, well I guess it was a lost in translation thing. I just like my aliens so I wanted to see more in the trailer... I am not concerned at all that they are in the final movie (in fact the st so far has had very “alien-light” trailers.)

On 10/23/2019 at 6:28 PM, whafrog said:

I was sick of it before Endgame...the only reason I kept watching was to see how the story ended, but I rented whereas I used to buy. I know it's not just me, my son and a bunch from his generation are very "meh" about the whole Marvel thing. Mostly because they are *all the same*. I will say I really enjoyed Guardians of the Galaxy, but only the first one. The rest were generic.

My hope is the Disney behemoth collapses under its own weight. They spent billions buying all this IP, but I don't think they understand that "buying a built world" is far less valuable than just telling a good story.

Working with several optional endings isn't that uncommon. They did it with Return Of The Jedi, where they even accidentally left some bits of the 'Han dies' ending in the finished film.

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

You see a flag. I see an *******.
I am sick and tired of these morons who think Star Wars changed while not seeing what is clear yo everyone with half a brain. That it is they themselves who were either blind to SW’s messages when they were young or that they grew up to be the villain in the story they used to love.

I'm sorry I missed all those "The Force is Female" T-shirts (EDIT: the Force is for *everyone*), "subverting expectations" speeches, and attacks on fans when I was 5 years old. Guess I just wasn't paying attention.

Also, I must have missed how 20th Century Fox took George Lucas' screenplays and then burned them in favor of scripts that were more likely to test well with audiences who were lukewarm toward big sci-fi fantasy epics.

Oh well, it's unbelievably great fun being a villain and not being able to be entertained by a thing I've loved since early childhood...

*shaking head*

The rest of you? Please continue to enjoy every bright new shiny thing with the words "Star Wars" emblazoned upon them. You are the true heroes.

All the usual talking points. All the usual bs.
Great job, buddy, Jordan Peterson must be super proud!

When I was a kid, when I was in high school enjoying the revival, when I was an adult taking a break and wondering if we'd seen the last, or even seven years ago when Lucas sold the franchise, I never dreamed that grown men would have mortal, moral arguments about Star Wars.

Can we all lighten up a bit?

I've had a quick read through the posts - while binge watching Battlestar Galactica (yeah, yeah whatever!) - for me it's not Star Wars fatigue. I'm not fatigued AT ALL with the Marvel run but I'm done now. I agree that Phases 1- 3 aka The Endgame Saga we were sploit if you like that kind of thing.

I wasn't Star Wars fatigued with Rebels, Clone War or the PT.. the new films just seem to lack depth/love of the lore. They didn't even get a scene or two with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, C3, R2 and even Lando together - or even Wedge... I realised with Ep8 during the opening scene with the 'Phone Call Scene' that I was no longer the target audience, I heard people behind me muttering 'FFS! is this the best they've got?' A few people got up, I thought for the toilet, they never cane back in.

I fell for the fancy trailers and the hype after the Episode 4 reboot. I stayed for Ep8 as I'd used petrol to get there and paid good money to get in. I'd had enough by the Bomber Run...and even my wife was unimpressed with the Supergirl Leai scene.

If people enjoy it good for them... we've got our OT or OT & PT... I love Rebels, I think it's wasted on kids, my nephews love it.

I still think Ep9 will rake it in, not so much as 7 but ppl will still go see. I know two people personally who will gush over Ep9, good for them, just to say they've seen eps 7-9 as midnight showings.

I avoided the trailer for 9 until it was shoved in my face at work on Thursday... I told my colleague to literally F off as I wasn't interested.

I've been off theses forums for AAAAGES due to RW sh**.. i pop on now to see where the RPG lines are going.

EXCELSIOR!!!!!

On the subject of Star Wars "fatigue"...

Don't get me wrong, I'm still excited for more new Star Wars content in general (Mandalorian a bit less so, but I've never been crazy about Mandalorians in the first place, much less so after Karen Traviss got her grimy hands all over them). But with this latest trailer, I'm not feeling that same degree of excitement and anticipation as I felt back when the initial trailers for The Force Awakens were released. I'm fully aware that as an adult I'm never going to get the same sense of excitement and anticipation for a new Star Wars movie that I got back when I was a kid, but that's not the fault of the people making the movie.

Maybe a part of the "fatigue" is just from dealing with the fanbase as a whole. Whoever first said that nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans wasn't very far off the mark.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Maybe a part of the "fatigue" is just from dealing with the fanbase as a whole. Whoever first said that nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans wasn't very far off the mark.

It is the reason I quit FB. Constantly having to wade through fragile middle aged white men’s persecution complexes whenever anything SW related cropped up.
I know I called someone an ******* here and that was unhelpful but, men... if this fragility is now a part of this community as well and these people are still upset because someone, somewhere once wore a tshirt they felt directly excluded them somehow then I guess I steered clear from these pages for a good reason too.

I see the little silhouetto of a padlock...

Nevermind

On 10/25/2019 at 10:27 AM, Harlock999 said:

This will be the first Star Wars film I will not be seeing in theaters.

Not because of fatigue, but because of the complete mismanagement by Disney and its team of producers, writers, and filmmakers more bent on trying to please the "normies" and activists than on creating something new and engaging.

While I actually enjoyed Rogue One and Solo and am actually looking forward to The Mandalorian (yeah, thank God Favreau understands what makes Star Wars tick with that show's Western and Kurosawa influences), this new trilogy and its planned follow-up trilogies have left me unbelievably underwhelmed and frustrated. And I will never view them as canon.

I'm afraid anything with Jedi and the Force as its focus will be an automatic pass from me from this point forward.

I think this is where I am at too. The last three films of the Skywalker saga were just not great. TFA could have been a great building point in many ways but that didn't happen.

Rogue One, Solo, and The Mandalorian are what I care about now, and maybe the upcoming Kenobi series.

I was very happy when I found out that Kiri Hart was relieved of her command and put on consultant status. Anyone who views Star Wars as a mainly a vehicle for Socio-Political Change in the real world is doing it wrong in my opinion. Let people have some escapism and fun, and if you have to try and solve the world's problems go do it directly.

Never underestimate the power of the arts to bring change to the world.

Star Wars has always had a message of socio-political change. It's not new. You just may not like the message the ST is saying, but SW has always had a message that's incredibly political.

Also, everything is political. Politics is life. Nothing is done in a vacuum.

I have seen the opening of every single star wars film in the same seat at Cinerama since 1977. I have my tickets for Rise of Ssywalker and I hope its good. I enjoyed Episodes VII & VIII but I didn't love the the way I did the originals. IX may yet grab me. I'm keeping an open mind. I certainly hope it grabs me. I will say I find Solo underrated and love Rogue One.

My feeling about VII and VIII is that they were exciting and hit all the fan-service tropes and beats, but they lacked soul. Despite trying, I don't really care about the new power trio and don't sense a coherent story underneath the breakneck action. The actors are all talented and nice to look at, but they haven't been given very much to work with. So far it feels like the writers bowed to a melange of focus groups and lost their own focus (facepalm!) on the ephemeral bits of character and story made Star Wars into more than a just another popcorn film. Which is not to say I won't kick back with some popcorn and re-watch the sequels. I will.

As for political messaging, I'm not overly concerned with the content of those messages. Lucas hung left, too. I'm a classical liberal and I'm not wholly unsympathetic. Rather, I'm more concerned with how the message is being delivered. The scripts have been "drop an anvil on their heads" in style and the style of the messaging has been far to pat for my taste. It lacks craft and has a much heavier propaganda vibe than the original films did. Good writers use allegory, analogy, metaphor, symbolism, and good old-fashioned unremarked-upon inclusion without gilding the lily with slogans and sermons to make a point. Less is often more.

Further, you can also put a message in a cultural product (art) without poisoning the well with corporate virtue signalling. Telegraphing your side in a culture war on social media creates bias, ruffles feathers, and is counter-productive. I would rather they just let the audience see it without pontificating. I want to absorb the film as an event and experience, and decide how to interpret the end-result for myself. We can all fight about petty political differences online after we've actually seen it and formed our own opinions about it. When you treat your audience like they are stupid you inspire resentment rather than receptivity.

For all that, I'm still excited about IX. I'm also looking forward to the Kenobi series and will check out the Mandalorian (though I'm less interested in that). We shall see. Like Polyanna I hope to be pleased.

“Virtue signaling” is another one of those terms that usually tells me way more about the person using it then the product he (somehow it is always a he, isn’t it?) is referring to. I would put it in the “normies” group and I think your using it undermines your message.
Also, the OT’s message lays on very, very thick and I am sure that had there been social media in those days the same **** would have happened as did today.

4 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

“Virtue signaling” is another one of those terms that usually tells me way more about the person using it then the product he (somehow it is always a he, isn’t it?) is referring to. I would put it in the “normies” group and I think your using it undermines your message.
Also, the OT’s message lays on very, very thick and I am sure that had there been social media in those days the same **** would have happened as did today.

I feel that using those two words particular was simply a poor choice of words on Vondy's part rather than being used with any intentional malice or derision.

But by the same token, I do agree that Star Wars from the very first movie has always had a political message. I remember an older friend of my aunt who was very active in the social rights movement in the 60's saying of the Star Wars movies (which she did enjoy) that about the only reason you didn't notice the political statements in the original films as if you were a child/teenager or just simply being willfully ignorant of the issues of the day.

I don't think the new films are heavy-handed so much that as a culture we're generally far more aware of the issues that exist within society, and it's thus a lot easier to draw parallels between what's being shown in the new films and what's going on in the world today. So in that light, I can see where Vondy's coming from in that the social commentary feels a little more heavy-handed than it did in the originals. Then again, the prequels weren't exactly subtle either about the perils of authoritarian government, staged wars, or the dangers of obsession either.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

But by the same token, I do agree that Star Wars from the very first movie has always had a political message. I remember an older friend of my aunt who was very active in the social rights movement in the 60's saying of the Star Wars movies (which she did enjoy) that about the only reason you didn't notice the political statements in the original films as if you were a child/teenager or just simply being willfully ignorant of the issues of the day.

I don't think the new films are heavy-handed so much that as a culture we're generally far more aware of the issues that exist within society, and it's thus a lot easier to draw parallels between what's being shown in the new films and what's going on in the world today. So in that light, I can see where Vondy's coming from in that the social commentary feels a little more heavy-handed than it did in the originals. Then again, the prequels weren't exactly subtle either about the perils of authoritarian government, staged wars, or the dangers of obsession either.

Which is basically my point, yeah, and why I'm constantly baffled when people claim that somehow it's a new thing. It's not, and the only reasons why I can think of someone who claims to love Star Wars so much would miss it tend not to be the most generous to the person.

And, sadly, a lot of people prove that those reasons are accurate. Most other times, it's because most people were kids when the OT (if you're over a certain age) or the PT came out, so you just may have missed it, but if you go back and watch now... they might as well be slapping you in the face with it.

12 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

And, sadly, a lot of people prove that those reasons are accurate. Most other times, it's because most people were kids when the OT (if you're over a certain age) or the PT came out, so you just may have missed it, but if you go back and watch now... they might as well be slapping you in the face with it.

Agreed, though with the older films the reason that the socio-political commentary doesn't seem as blatant is due to nostalgia filters on the part of the viewer, especially if they were a small child when the films came out. And I'm sure that much of the socio-political commentary flies right over the heads of small children who are watching the new films.

6 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

“Virtue signaling” is another one of those terms that usually tells me way more about the person using it then the product he (somehow it is always a he, isn’t it?) is referring to. I would put it in the “normies” group and I think your using it undermines your message.
Also, the OT’s message lays on very, very thick and I am sure that had there been social media in those days the same **** would have happened as did today.

If you want to myopically zero in on two words, and boil a post down to the identity of the person who made it as opposed reading the holistic whole of its content, feel free. Straw men and ad hominem attacks are Internet norms. I'm used to it.

34 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Which is basically my point, yeah, and why I'm constantly baffled when people claim that somehow it's a new thing. It's not, and the only reasons why I can think of someone who claims to love Star Wars so much would miss it tend not to be the most generous to the person.

And, sadly, a lot of people prove that those reasons are accurate. Most other times, it's because most people were kids when the OT (if you're over a certain age) or the PT came out, so you just may have missed it, but if you go back and watch now... they might as well be slapping you in the face with it.

Its not nostalgia. Its new medium. It was a different time. We didn't hear Lucas talk about his intended politics until well after the films were released. Sometimes years afterward. And even then, it occurred in mediums that did not instantly disseminate like wildfire. We were allowed to experience the films, come up with our own interpretations, and form our own opinions long before being bombarded with distilled political nonsense. The message was delivered through the art as opposed to being delivered through art critics long before anyone actually saw the art itself.

On 10/24/2019 at 2:33 PM, StarkJunior said:

Just to drop some differing viewpoint - I'm hype as **** about this. I've loved every SW movie put out since Disney took over, far more than the PT or the OT. (Yeah, I know, heresy.) Can't wait to see it all wrap-up in IMAX.

I guess we are both heretics then because, while I'm waiting for episode 9 to pass final judgment, the Sequel Trilogy is building up to be my favorite out of the 3. One of the thing that I really like about it is that it is building up on the Original Trilogy without relying on Nostalgia and Fan Service.

18 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Its not nostalgia. Its new medium. It was a different time. We didn't hear Lucas talk about his intended politics until well after the films were released. Sometimes years afterward. And even then, it occurred in mediums that did not instantly disseminate like wildfire. We were allowed to experience the films, come up with our own interpretations, and form our own opinions long before being bombarded with distilled political nonsense. The message was delivered through the art as opposed to being delivered through art critics long before anyone actually saw the art itself.

All of that is still 100% true. Everyone can still do that. Plenty of people do that. Soooo many more people don't engage in Internet discussions or read articles or interviews than those who do. Most of the returns for any big global franchise comes from people who don't engage anywhere outside of viewing the film itself, or the occasional one comment on a FB post somewhere. These discussions here, and other niche places, are in total vacuums and stuff like fan reviews are always displayed in vacuums and don't reflect the general attitude at all . The positive messages of inclusivity, acceptance, and no one being special just because of their blood that the ST is showing is HUGELY important, especially when they core cast emulating this is what they are, and it's playing an important role in the next generation of young SW fans growing up with the ST.

Also, when the fandom and pop culture explosion (which, arguably, Star Wars is one of the largest contributors to its origination) has necessitated creators always having to give something to the crowds because there's an incessant need to constantly engage with something, then yeah, writers/directors/producers/actors/whatever are going to talk about it. You bet if Lucas had access to the same level of stuff that occurs now and people were asking him about it, it would have been the same. No piece of art is produced agnostic to the creator's political views, so why is it a problem when they talk about it? Even something that appears to take no stance, is taking a stance . Just don't read or listen to something if you do't want to be 'influenced' - but just by watching or engaging with a media, you are already being influenced.

And it's not like anyone really thought Lucas wasn't trying to say something super political, if they knew his background. He's part of that group of USC/SoCal filmmakers who all held largely the same views and had - and continue to have - their films influenced by them, and it's not like THX 1138 or American Graffiti were any different before he made Star Wars.