1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Just because you and your immediate circle might be ga-ga over the show, that doesn't mean everyone else feels the same about the show. Take a look outside your bubble and you might find the show isn't as universally revered as you tried to claim it be, whether it be among the hardcore fans, the casual fans, or those with only a passing interest in Star Wars in general. Even Baby Yoda has started to wear out its welcome with folks due to its meme status.

I talk routinely with a substantial group who aren't sci-fi fans in general, much less of Star Wars, and they have zero interest in the show, having only gotten their Disney+ subscription for access to the large catalog of Disney, Marvel and even National Geographic programming.

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-mandalorian-disney-plus-is-top-tv-show-in-world-2019-12

And since it's pretty much only available in the US, that's pretty impressive.

I also think The Mandalorian is really just above average show (I still enjoy it though as it's true to SW!). The praises it gets and overall overrating is because compare to Disney poop-worth trilogy it seems like much better then it really is. I mean if you ate a really bad burger in restaurant, even McDonald will taste like best burger after that (not saying Mando is like McDonald, it's just example).

Me and my friends also think it's overrated but compare to what abomination Disney made - it seems like pure gold.

Well, I can't blame people for overrating it currently. They finally got some good, classic Star Wars.

Of course, it's my opinion but people in comments on internet tend to agree why they themselves overrate Mando.

Ugh. When did this turn into the third worst fandom ever?

6 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Ugh. When did this turn into the third worst fandom ever?

Sometime in the early 00s, probably. (BTW, what do you consider the first two?)

9 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Sometime in the early 00s, probably. (BTW, what do you consider the first two?)

It was a pretty rough estimation, but the Warhammer 40K and Rick & Morty fandoms have some atrocious low points. Gamergate made me ashamed to call myself a gamer as well if that counts.

I know that's three, which is roughly two.

Maybe I'll peace out and hang with the bronies a while, I mean they're fans of a pastel colored, progressive cartoon about the magic of friendship. It can't possibly be bad right?

Oh, ffs...

This is why we can't have, no, don't deserve anything nice anymore.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

And since it's pretty much only available in the US, that's pretty impressive.

I don’t think anyone is denying that. What I was disputing is that somehow “now” Star Wars has penetrated popculture.

6 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Ugh. When did this turn into the third worst fandom ever?

Being fan doesn't mean being fanatic and auto-like everything that is related to your passion. Same as being gamer doesn't mean you will like and positively see/receive every new game. We are all SW fans here, but while some of us like new trilogy and have right to do, some of us despise them and wish they never happened and also have right to do. Both a signs of being a true fans, because as Henry Cavil said about Witcher fans hating on things in new Netflix series "I don't see it as hate, but as a passion" to paraphrase him (note that he himself is huge fan of Witcher). A little bit less fanatism and little more distance always helps.

https://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-wars-episode-ix---the-rise-of-skywalker

Reviews are in... and they are not great.
My thoughts are in the spoiler thread.

8 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Ugh. When did this turn into the third worst fandom ever?

Is it that,* or is it the same two or three guys who get super-edgy and make it difficult to disagree? 🤓

* Well, yeah, okay, it is that, too.

Edit: On-point, while critics appear totally mixed on Abrams' formula, the (positive) Variety review has a ring of objectivity to it. This might just be the movie where we all sit back and say, "Yeah, that was pretty good. I love Star Wars."

1 hour ago, Benny89 said:

Being fan doesn't mean being fanatic and auto-like everything that is related to your passion. Same as being gamer doesn't mean you will like and positively see/receive every new game. We are all SW fans here, but while some of us like new trilogy and have right to do, some of us despise them and wish they never happened and also have right to do. Both a signs of being a true fans, because as Henry Cavil said about Witcher fans hating on things in new Netflix series "I don't see it as hate, but as a passion" to paraphrase him (note that he himself is huge fan of Witcher). A little bit less fanatism and little more distance always helps.

It's ok to dislike. Move on and do something you like. If you're staying in a fandom just to keep telling everyone else in it how objectively bad it is... well, then you're just a terrible person.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

It's ok to dislike. Move on and do something you like. If you're staying in a fandom just to keep telling everyone else in it how objectively bad it is... well, then you're just a terrible person.

Well, its not different from "staying in fandom just to keep telling everyone else in it how objectively good it is.... well, then you are just a terrible person". There is no difference between someone telling how X is great and someone saying how Y is terrible. It's just different opinion on the same subject. Ask any music band fans about their fav band albums. You will have people who dislike album X and people who say album X was the best. But they are all part of same band fanbase.

Opinions vary, it's just good to accept it and also I didn't see any requirement like "you need to absolutely love everything related to SW if you want to be part of fandom. No different opinion allowed" when I joined this forum.

And forum is always used to express opinions, be it positive or negative. It's not reserved only for praising stuff.

19 minutes ago, Benny89 said:

Well, its not different from "staying in fandom just to keep telling everyone else in it how objectively good it is.... well, then you are just a terrible person". There is no difference between someone telling how X is great and someone saying how Y is terrible. It's just different opinion on the same subject. Ask any music band fans about their fav band albums. You will have people who dislike album X and people who say album X was the best. But they are all part of same band fanbase.

Opinions vary, it's just good to accept it and also I didn't see any requirement like "you need to absolutely love everything related to SW if you want to be part of fandom. No different opinion allowed" when I joined this forum.

And forum is always used to express opinions, be it positive or negative. It's not reserved only for praising stuff.

No there is no fundamental difference in saying "X is good, i enjoyed it" and "Y is bad, I didn't enjoy it." There IS a fundamental difference in "X is good, I enjoyed it." and "Y is bad, and is an abomination to human society, and everyone that is involved in it needs to die in a fire for their obvious hostile intent to attack the fanbase by butchering the things they love. they clearly hate all things Y, and actively seek to destroy Y with their every waking breath. Liking New Y means you are a Traitor to Y (and yes, I've actually had someone tell me this about SW, that is not hyperbole), and you should be ashamed, and I WILL PLASTER THIS OPINION ALL OVER EVERY MEDIA OUTLET I CAN, IRRESPECTIVE OF TONE OR MATURITY ON MY PART, BECAUSE I AM JUST THAT MAD AND PERSONALLY TIED UP INTO THIS FRANCHISE WHEN IT COMES TO MY PERSONAL IDENTITY!" One is an opinion, "I like/don't like X" and that's not something that can be debated. If you do/don't like something, fine. But the other part "Person is intentionally trying to destroy X, and hates the fandom, and is specifically targeting everything we love in an attempt to destroy it, for some apparently Palpatine level Because I'm Evil motivation, and nothing more" that is NOT an opinion. That is a declaration of intent and motivation on the part of another human, and can actually be confirmed/denied with evidence. And, this is the part I think people miss, the two have NOTHING to do with each other. Conflating the two doesn't prove/disprove anything.

Nobody really gets annoyed when someone JUST says "Y is bad, I didn't enjoy it." But that's not the examples people are pointing too when they talk about the bad examples of fandom and criticism, they are pointing at the second example. Of which there is plenty of examples to cite out there, and on this forum itself.

And no, this forum doesn't mandate everyone like everything, varying opinions are perfectly fine and encouraged. But some people on these forums are incapable of behaving in a mature fashion, and just calmly, and rationally discussing something, pro or con. And THAT is where the issue arises.

I've had multiple wonderful discussions with people on this forum, about TLJ, and we were both able to behave like mature adults, and it was great. We stated our thoughts on elements of the narrative and structure, cited reasons to back our thoughts on the pros/cons, and while I'm pretty sure neither of us really swayed the others opinion, except maybe on a few points (I still like the film, he still doesn't), it didn't devolve into a festering flame war about SJW's and Get Woke, Go Broke, and all that stuff. Because we were able to objectively look at the thing, without taking everything as a personal assault on our identity, or weaponizing the franchise to push some political/social agenda.

Because, and I think this bears repeating at every opportunity to this fanbase. *coughs and clears throat*

IT'S JUST A MOVIE! IT'S JUST A TV SHOW! NONE OF IT IS REAL, IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY MATTER.

I'm sure some of you are rolling your eyes at that, and saying "no duh", but we all know people who are too invested in Star Wars, or Star Trek, or Sports Ball, or any of a number of other ultimately meaningless things, and you can't deny that there is a portion of this fandom, who is incredibly vocal in ways that clearly indicate their unhealthy level of obsession to this franchise. And when the situation has devolved to where people are yelling and insulting other people about a scifi/fantasy franchise about space wizards with laser swords, we really all need to step back and think if this stuff is really worth this level of investment in it. Because honestly, as time goes on, I'm finding it less and less worth it. Not because of the material itself, most of Star Wars products have always sucked (remember those Ewok cartoons and that live action show? Yeah...SW Christmas Special? yeah....it's always had a bad pedigree), but because of how we are increasingly letting ourselves get sucked into some fan war, on par with religious zealotry about a schism in the original doctrines. And frankly, it's very sad, and really pathetic.

Ok, sorry, rant over.

Maybe it's because I'm someone that focus on the positive, but I don't really see a reason to constantly reminds others why you hate something in every occasion. I mean, it's alright to say you didn't like/love something, but I don't see the point to drag it on.

I don't personally like the prequels, but I leave it at that. If I see two or three persons discussing and saying how they personally love the prequels, I don't see the point to join the conversation to tell them how much I personally don't like them. Why try destroying what others enjoy? On the contrary, even if I don't like the prequels, I'll be interested to know why they love it? Because even though I don't personally like them, I'm sure that there is still good in them, and when I watch them, I try to find reason to enjoy them instead of focusing on why I don't like them, or worst trying to find new reasons to not liking them.

Critisism is important. But I don't really see the point to tell it to others that already love what you hate. Why try to change other people minds to adhere to yours? A critisism should be send to the creator. If I don't enjoy a meal or service in a restaurant, I'll tell it to the owner or the waiter. I won't tell it to the person sitting next to me that seems to enjoy his meal. If my friends ask me my opinion, I'll gladly give it to them and explain why, but I won't feel the need to call them to tell them to avoid the place, it's quite possible that they might enjoy it so what's the point? Why this constant needs to be heard?

I'll be seeing Episode 9 saturday night. Honestly don't know if I'll love it or hate it. But if I end up hating it, you won't see me reminding everybody that I hate it. If they enjoyed it, why try to make them hate it? There is no right or wrong in opinions and I don't give more value to mine than others. If they enjoy it and I don't, good for them. And for my part, I'll move on... just like I moved on from the prequels.

I suspect with Star Wars that a large part of it is the emotional connection in the fandom.

That is, more than a lot of things, Star Wars has largely endured because of the unique fandom, and the way the fandom has interacted and let the brand continue on even when there weren't big things being produced for it. Because of that, people want to view the franchise the same way as others, and I think it tends to make some folks try to make others hate something as much as they do, as a weird reaction due to the perceived fan ownership.

That perception I think creates such statements like the ST/Disney SW is all non-canon, which is obviously not true no matter how much you don't like the movies, or that the ST is fan fiction... which like, yeah, technically it is... if you mean that it's made by fans of Star Wars. Which, by the way, Kathleen Kennedy, JJ, and Rian absolutely ARE - but again, fans don't agree on everything, and you can see from the headcanon thread that even here everyone has different ideas of what SW is.

I think that's largely the big thing, really - it's not like with the MCU, where they've basically given us a longer saga than Star Wars in 11 years and have sort of galvanized a fandom around it in that short period of time. Star Wars has existed for 40+ years and in the long years of gestation between the tentpole trilogies, people have solidified what Star Wars is to them, and anything that deviates from that is going to automatically be perceived as bad or at least negative, because it conflicts with what is basically an identity. There are kids today who's view of what Star Wars is will start with the ST and all things Disney SW, and be shaped from it, and that's awesome.

But, you can't really make other people perceive Star Wars they way you do, because it's deeply personal and no one has the exact same experiences. But dislike and hate are far easier to weaponize as a reaction, especially on the internet. In small real life circles, it's usually not the case, I've found, but on the internet, absolutely. And, of course, everyone feels like their particular internet community (here, a subreddit, Facebook, tumblr, Twitter, or whatever else) is the be-all-end-all of the world's perception of Star Wars, so it's almost impossible to break away from the opinions found within.

Rambly, but I think that might be a large part of it. For my part, I'm just going to enjoy all things Star Wars, because that's what I want to do.

16 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Why try destroying what others enjoy?

Some people just take pleasure in making others miserable. Others feel that just because they don't like something for whatever reason, they're now entitled to harass others who did like the thing.

And it's not just in the Star Wars community this has been happening, especially with the advent of social media. If anything, the larger a community a franchise builds, the higher percentage of it includes overtly toxic individuals. I suspect that John "Q" DeLancie's opinion of the MLP:FiM has soured considerably over the years, and that about a show is very much about acceptance and tolerance.

That's a growing attitude around the world today and I am not calling out Millennials because it includes way more age groups than just that. For some reason, people have decided that if they don't like something, it shouldn't exist and nobody else should be able to like it.

A most recent example of that was a Christmas sweater being banned from Walmart website because it had a drug theme. People could have easily just shook their head and clicked on but, instead, someone had to complain about it and Walmart removed it and apologized for it (even though it's still available on other sites).

Star Wars faces the same criticism, if not more, because it's fanbase spreads across so many age and social groups. From the beginning, it had something for everyone, not everyone liked everything about it but could find things they did like. Now, there are so many avenues of viewing Star Wars people seem to be getting more greedy about it. For me, I'll just shake my head at the "crazies", grab my popcorn, and watch my Star Wars.

19 hours ago, Benny89 said:

Well, I still have hopes they will kick her out or just move her somewhere else in Disney after TRoS will quiet down. Hope dies last, no?

Trilogies are more demanding because you need clear story, clear ideas, character development and depth, and good execution so everything fits together, which is something they totally can't do right now as they already shown.

I won't say, Rogue one was in my opinion a good movie (not without it's bads), so If they take simillar approach, I might be interested again. I just hope they will learn something from this poor trilogy. For the better.

I wouldn't say that they "can't" do it right now, just that they didn't. And much of that can be attributed to Ryan Johnson with The Last Jedi (like the movie or not), who went out of his way to subvert expectations in TLJ.

Hey, I'm excited. Any movie that William Shatner was obviously the secret script doctor on can't be all bad.

HORSES IN SPAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!!!

Hi. I am here for an open discussion about TLJ now I have seen it. I thought it was great

reads previous pages, sees familiar diatribe attacking Mandalorian and Kathleen Kennedy.

You guys really need to get over it when your expectations aren't met. Complaining on a forum does nothing but make you angrier, and we all know that anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering...

See ya!

7 hours ago, Andreievitch said:

Hi. I am here for an open discussion about TLJ now I have seen it. I thought it was great

reads previous pages, sees familiar diatribe attacking Mandalorian and Kathleen Kennedy.

You guys really need to get over it when your expectations aren't met. Complaining on a forum does nothing but make you angrier, and we all know that anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering...

See ya!

Read up on some psychology: Expressing anger and hate is healthy. Repressing those emotions is what leads to suffering, either for the person holding those emotions inside, or for others when those emotions explode out in an uncontrolled manner (and no, venting against a piece of fiction is not harmful) .

Expressing toxic emotions is absolutely not healthy.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/emotional-wellness_b_4612392?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLm5sLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAD6L_ngB8gLE8fvlscM050JedOW4L8BHWprDV7pPHUf_3snJFHX2QZizVEC5ldjIxnR4lBayf5fQ6txb5RLT3D7QiZNeKGd71ulsPJpTaoZUyH8wHkipwAxOiC3eOfks4x6DGXRaeRMRfYxwCmJjEa_d1Z48wfVWghaVlaJwHN_O

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

Read up on some psychology: Expressing anger and hate is healthy. Repressing those emotions is what leads to suffering, either for the person holding those emotions inside, or for others when those emotions explode out in an uncontrolled manner (and no, venting against a piece of fiction is not harmful) .

Venting can be healthy in moderation.

Still working yourself up into a mouth-foaming rage over a two years old film is... not healthy or sane.

11 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Expressing toxic emotions is absolutely not healthy.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/emotional-wellness_b_4612392?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLm5sLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAD6L_ngB8gLE8fvlscM050JedOW4L8BHWprDV7pPHUf_3snJFHX2QZizVEC5ldjIxnR4lBayf5fQ6txb5RLT3D7QiZNeKGd71ulsPJpTaoZUyH8wHkipwAxOiC3eOfks4x6DGXRaeRMRfYxwCmJjEa_d1Z48wfVWghaVlaJwHN_O

Huffpost is hardly an academic source. It is a progressive political tool and nothing more.

Here is a contrary non-academic source that is at least non-political.

Perhaps you would do better not to politicize an article written by a Harvard educated cardiologist just because you don’t like the outlet that “printed” it.

8 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Perhaps you would do better not to politicize an article written by a Harvard educated cardiologist just because you don’t like the outlet that “printed” it.

Here is a Harvard-educated person with an opposite view.