It becomes an issue, though, when people use a purity test of whether or not TLJ (or the ST as a whole) was/is good because Star Wars "fans" didn't like it - or rather, what is likely only a small snippet of the fandom that's very vocal on visible spaces online, and not at all representative of the larger whole. Especially because when you point out the box office success and the "A" Cinemascore of the TLJ (same as TFA and RO), you often get retorts of "BUT THE ROTTEN TOMATOES AUDIENCE SCORE" or "I'M A FAN AND I DON'T LIKE IT THEREFORE IT RUINED IT FOR ALL FANS" - not that anyone here is doing that - but it's like a weird situation. The negatives prove one point, but the positives don't prove the opposite point? It's weird.

Ultimately, I think SW exists in a weird space where what constitutes as a "fan" of Star Wars has way too much importance and weight on the property. And because there isn't actually a definition of fan that everyone agrees to, and Lucasfilm and Disney don't care because anyone who gives them money counts, then any discussion around what is and isn't a fan, and whether or not that matters when talking about the goodness of the ST, is probably irrelevant and not helpful to any real discussion.

35 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

As far as what constitutes a "Star Wars Fan" I don't believe in purity tests, and I believe that it is very hard to form any sort of criteria. If you want to say that your definition of "Star Wars Fan" is what you wrote down, then when we say Star Wars fan, interpret it as "Die-Hard Star Wars Fan."

See the thing is, that's what most people who bother with labeling people "true fans" or not are actually saying. Basically boiling down to "are you as obsessed with this as me? Then you are not a fan if you are not." And they use it to invalidate any contrary opinions in a debate about something. I've actually had someone in my Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes guild say this to me about the new films. He actually, un-ironically said, and I'm not joking "that the new films are a betrayal, and true fans know this. and anyone that likes them are traitors to the original material."

Now your opinion on the new films aside, that kind of rhetoric is just ******* stupid. But it IS out there. There are people who will make such declarations, claiming some superiority of fandom, to justify their stance and claims on a subject. And the shun those "lesser" than them, as part of the unwashed masses, who can be sneered and ridiculed. And that it's ok to do so, BECAUSE they are not as "true" to the faith as they are. And ridicule people this guy would do. ANY time, ANYONE in the guild would upgrade a character he deemed "unworthy", and the game would thus notify the guild "SOANDSO has promoted Blingo Sloopsnarf to 7 Stars!" he would shout out TRAITOR! in the chat, and he wasn't kidding. I know because I flat out called him out on it, and he said the above comment about how people are traitors to Star Wars if they like the new stuff. And he jumps into any conversation about the new stuff with snarky, toxic comments. So yeah, it exists. It's stupid, and petty, and juvenile, but that's never stopped obsessed people from doing it before.

I have never heard anyone suggest that the people who like TLJ are a negligible statistic. I have heard the alternative from proponents of TLJ. From what I've seen, people who like TLJ are arguing that we exist in fairly significant numbers and people on the other side are arguing that we don't. That is why the negatives can be said to "prove" one point while positives don't "prove" the opposite point.

10 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

what is likely only a small snippet of the fandom that's very vocal on visible spaces online, and not at all representative of the larger whole.

This is why "Who is a fan?" matters. If you just look at people who watched TLJ, the numbers of people who liked it are going to be much higher than if you are only looking at people who particularly care about Star Wars. Like I mentioned earlier, my younger sister loved TLJ. Her main reason? "The porgs were cute!" She is welcome to like it, and I'm glad she did, I don't begrudge that of anyone. But if you put that answer next to someone who really cares about Star Wars and can give you a litany of reasons as to why they think that TLJ is awful (whether you agree with the reasons or not) it is going to come up with a fairly skewed result. (Basically, "What is the larger whole?")

I do not, I repeat, do not call into question the fandom of people who like TLJ. I have seen people who like TLJ calling into question the fandom of people who disliked it. I believe that fans can have legitimate disagreements on whether a movie is good or not. I also believe that TLJ is objectively bad from a story perspective (i.e. Finn and Rose contributing nothing to the story [except the semi-cloaking device*]).

*In the book that gave the backstory of Rose and Paige, it was actually a pretty interesting story of how she designed the thing (I just wish she'd been done as well in the movie as in the JUVENILE NOVEL ).

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

He actually, un-ironically said, and I'm not joking "that the new films are a betrayal, and true fans know this. and anyone that likes them are traitors to the original material."

Then I disagree with him, and he was wrong. Even if I might share some of his criticisms, that is not the right way to go about it, and he was wrong.

Just now, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Then I disagree with him, and he was wrong. Even if I might share some of his criticisms, that is not the right way to go about it, and he was wrong.

I agree as well, however being wrong has never stopped anyone from spouting out their thoughts, even when directly confronted with their wrongness. It usually just makes them double down and shift the conversation to something else to ignore that counterpoint.

44 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I have never heard anyone suggest that the people who like TLJ are a negligible statistic. I have heard the alternative from proponents of TLJ. From what I've seen, people who like TLJ are arguing that we exist in fairly significant numbers and people on the other side are arguing that we don't. That is why the negatives can be said to "prove" one point while positives don't "prove" the opposite point.

This is why "Who is a fan?" matters. If you just look at people who watched TLJ, the numbers of people who liked it are going to be much higher than if you are only looking at people who particularly care about Star Wars. Like I mentioned earlier, my younger sister loved TLJ. Her main reason? "The porgs were cute!" She is welcome to like it, and I'm glad she did, I don't begrudge that of anyone. But if you put that answer next to someone who really cares about Star Wars and can give you a litany of reasons as to why they think that TLJ is awful (whether you agree with the reasons or not) it is going to come up with a fairly skewed result. (Basically, "What is the larger whole?")

I do not, I repeat, do not call into question the fandom of people who like TLJ. I have seen people who like TLJ calling into question the fandom of people who disliked it. I believe that fans can have legitimate disagreements on whether a movie is good or not. I also believe that TLJ is objectively bad from a story perspective (i.e. Finn and Rose contributing nothing to the story [except the semi-cloaking device*]).

*In the book that gave the backstory of Rose and Paige, it was actually a pretty interesting story of how she designed the thing (I just wish she'd been done as well in the movie as in the JUVENILE NOVEL ).

And I have seen the exact opposite. Again, it's why I say these discussions ultimately prove nothing, because nothing ever changes and someone always has an anecdote that is the opposite of someone else's anecdote. It all depends on who you surround yourself with, and what your particular pocket of the fandom uses to communicate and who tends to frequent it.

All of our various circles aren't representative of much of anything beyond what the circles represent, and isn't in actuality proof of much on a global scale, but I talk about the box office numbers and Cinemascores (this less so, but still good) because those do prove something on some level, but you get the "Disney buying out whole theaters" or "paying off critics" as a way to explain away the numbers to support one side, which isn't actually occurring. (Whereas the review bombing DID and DOES occur, and sites have changed their procedures to combat it.) Namely what those things prove is that TLJ was a success by industry accounts, and that's all Disney ultimately cares about. All of this discussion is just keeping the brand alive, so that's good for them. Again, no one here in this thread is explicitly doing any of the conspiracy stuff or whatever at present, but spend five minutes on Google and the wider internet and this kind of **** is prevalent and loud, two years after the fact and it's mostly the same people all shouting at each other, because like I said, our circles tend to inform themselves.

"Who is a fan" only matters if there is a universal definition of what a fan is, and there really isn't, because everyone considers it differently. And it also only matters as if that has some actual bearing on anything beyond a way to - and no one here is doing this explicitly - segregate a part of the audience from the other by arbitrary qualifications that shouldn't exist.

Like, right here as an example, Finn and Rose's contribution is immensely important to the development of Finn, and is not bad, in my opinion. You can't label it as objectively bad, because that part of it is subjective. I'm not going to argue this point for the thousandth time, but it just goes to show that no one is 'right' or 'wrong' because it's all subjective discussion like 95% of the time.

Donovan even pointed out that ESB basically had similar backlash (with sources), and only got its reputation years after the fact, but again, it gets dismissed for... reasons.

Anyone who speaks for “the true fans“ seems to not have understood the message of Star Wars but I guess that irony would be lost in them.

I watched all movies and TV series (even Resistance!), I've read almost all book since the Disney buy out and all comic books, played almost all Star Wars video games and every fantasy flight games Star wars games... Can I have my Star Wars fan badge please so that my opinion is worth more than others when discussing opinions about Star Wars?

Thanks!

I find all of it really fascinating, in a sad kind of way. The way that people carve up the franchise, and then debate what "really" happened with something, and cite various sources that are all fictional, is pretty much identical to actual religious fracturing. You have the group that are the Old Testament (EU/Legacy devotees) style fans, who cite sources from the plethora of authors with different agendas and timelines of when they were published, and use it to try and establish some massive story with connective tissue, as if it all leads back to a single point. You have the New Testament (those who say "Hey all that stuff isn't canon anymore, we aren't beholden to those constraints and can rewrite everything in contradiction to the old stuff!" Something that actual religious people do) devotees who ignore the previous source material that colors the discussion in a different way. You have those who rant about the moral righteousness of the Jedi/Sith, and get into circular debates about what the actual intent is of things. Like are the Jedi/Sith Creeds literal or interpretive, just like actual religious people do with things like the 10 Commandments and the Deadly Sins. They cite adherences to the original prophet Lucas, or revisionist apostles that came after. It's just...all terrifyingly on the nose to actual religious behavior. It of course doesn't help that Jedi is an official religion now, which muddies the waters even more. People base their entire life's purpose about believing in this franchise, to the point of assaulting (verbally and likely physically somewhere at some point) those who would decry or besmirch their beliefs in it.

I find it fascinating, in a terrifying kind of way, but fascinating all the same.

6 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I find all of it really fascinating, in a sad kind of way. The way that people carve up the franchise, and then debate what "really" happened with something, and cite various sources that are all fictional, is pretty much identical to actual religious fracturing. You have the group that are the Old Testament (EU/Legacy devotees) style fans, who cite sources from the plethora of authors with different agendas and timelines of when they were published, and use it to try and establish some massive story with connective tissue, as if it all leads back to a single point. You have the New Testament (those who say "Hey all that stuff isn't canon anymore, we aren't beholden to those constraints and can rewrite everything in contradiction to the old stuff!" Something that actual religious people do) devotees who ignore the previous source material that colors the discussion in a different way. You have those who rant about the moral righteousness of the Jedi/Sith, and get into circular debates about what the actual intent is of things. Like are the Jedi/Sith Creeds literal or interpretive, just like actual religious people do with things like the 10 Commandments and the Deadly Sins. They cite adherences to the original prophet Lucas, or revisionist apostles that came after. It's just...all terrifyingly on the nose to actual religious behavior. It of course doesn't help that Jedi is an official religion now, which muddies the waters even more. People base their entire life's purpose about believing in this franchise, to the point of assaulting (verbally and likely physically somewhere at some point) those who would decry or besmirch their beliefs in it.

I find it fascinating, in a terrifying kind of way, but fascinating all the same.

I'm sure there's been more than a few academic papers written on the subject matter! (I know because I wrote one in undergrad. 😋)

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'm going to call this specific point out, because it falls squarely into the realm of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

What exactly defines a Star Wars fan? Do you apply a BS purity test like what Vondy suggested a while back, and anyone that doesn't meet the criteria of that purity test gets dismissed as "not a true fan"? At point, it's much easier to say "well none of the Star Wars fans I know..." when you set the criteria to such a point you get a very narrow slice of what the actual fanbase is and can easily dismiss any opinions of those who disagree with your views because they don't pass your purity test of what a Star Wars fan is.

I would say that I have my own test of it but I do not try and say that this is definitively what a Star Wars fan is, mainly because it's just not that important in the larger scheme of things. There are a lot of things (content-wise) that I feel are not worth attention and not worthy of perpetuating in the vast collection of content for the IP, but that is my opinion and I feel like it does not need to conform to some pleasant standard that holds that everything is the same and it's all good when it comes to the evaluation fictional works.

I do dismiss views that I feel don't hold water for my view of how things are best when it comes to the IP, and I don't see what the problem is as I don't think everyone is going to agree with me, though agreement is nice when it occurs. People should be able to understand that other people need not like what they like and not take it as an insult.

In my actual experience I have never met a person who thought ESB was trash and still had views of the IP that make any sense to me.

1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

People should be able to understand that other people need not like what they like and not take it as an insult.

In my actual experience I have never met a person who thought ESB was trash and still had views of the IP that make any sense to me.

And on the flip side, people should be able to understand and accept that other people like and enjoy things that they don't and not take that as an insult. If you can't be bothered to extend that level of respect to people who enjoy things you don't, then feel free to take a long walk of a very short pier.

And that second sentence is exactly the sort of gatekeeping grognard jerkery that makes discourages new people from wanting to have anything to do with Star Wars. Which I guess if fine if one wants the franchise to die and fade away (which it seems is what a lot of those gatekeeping grognards who pass judgment about who is or isn't a "true Star Wars fan" are really after so that they can feel special). Personally, I'd rather have more Star Wars, and more people joining the fandom for it, even parts of the new material aren't of interest; for instance, I don't care one whit about The Mandalorian and probably won't watch a single episode of it, but I also won't badger or crap on people who are excited for it.

Or, take off the nostalgia glasses and re-watch the original films with a far more objective view. I assure you that if you can manage that (not easy to do for many, since it involves checking your bias at the door, something humanity in general is quite bad at), you'll see that they're not nearly as good or flawless as the Fandom Menace would have you believe.

Honestly, one of the best things about Star Wars is the fact that there's something for everyone. I just wish some parts of the fandom could let that just... be the case.

34 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Honestly, one of the best things about Star Wars is the fact that there's something for everyone. I just wish some parts of the fandom could let that just... be the case.

NOO!! ALL MUST BE AS I WANT IT TO BE!! IF NOT IT'S A CONSPIRACY BY THE *INSERT GROUP YOU DON'T LIKE* AND IT SHOULD ALL BURN IN NERD RAGE!!!!

58 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I do dismiss views that I feel don't hold water for my view of how things are best when it comes to the IP, and I don't see what the problem is as I don't think everyone is going to agree with me, though agreement is nice when it occurs. People should be able to understand that other people need not like what they like and not take it as an insult.

The problem is that a lot of people, wrap up their personal identity and value as a person, into their love/obsession with a thing. This isn't exclusive to Star Wars, or nerddom in general. It's just how people are. A significant percentage of humans, find comfort, purpose, and validation, in their love of *Insert Thing*. And when someone else criticizes that thing, even if it's a valid criticism, their reaction is to feel the criticism is pointed at them as a person. Because it's just that important to them. It's not just Star Wars, it's STAR WARS! Maybe it's the thing that helped them get through a troubling childhood, as they used the films and comics and soundtracks, as an escape for a bad life, so they have deep, personal meaning to them. So when someone says "that thing was dumb/lame/badly written", they hear "You think I'm pathetic because I like this thing." So now they are in a defensive mode, they're flushed and anxious, feeling called out in public, even if they are the only ones aware of their current state. And then they start to lash out, with whatever reason they can think of to try and counter what you said, and not just counter it, but to elevate and lionize the thing they hold so dear. And then you get what we have today. People planting flags of fandom, ranting and railing at anyone they deem "other", with a zealous fervor that just makes everything worse.

And I know this happens, because it used to happen to me, with the band RUSH. In particular, a specific album of theirs called Presto. Now, to most people, RUSH sucks. They hate Geddy Lee's voice, they don't find the songs appealing, etc. And even among RUSH fans, most don't like the Presto album, as they feel it was subject to the sin of being made "In the 90s". For me though, I personally attribute that album to saving my life. And I'm not speaking in hyperbole there. Short version, my family is pretty ****** up, and as a teenager, things were not great at home. So I would hide in my room, read my scifi/fantasy novels, play my video games, and listen to my favorite music with headphones on, so I could drown out the yelling in the other room. And for a while there, I considered suicide. But there is a song on Presto, specifically about suicide, and being against it. And the lyrics of Neil Peart (the drummer and lyricist for the band) have always spoken to me personally. And listening to that album as a whole, but that song in particular, helped me realize I could get through the **** at home, and be ok. And for the most part, I was. So that album is deeply important to me. And for a long time, when people would badmouth RUSH, in general, or that album in particular, I would get angry. It would physically make my body flush with adrenaline, in that embarrassment/anger feeling you get. I don't recall ever going off on someone about it? But I sure as **** wanted to. It doesn't matter if their criticisms about the musical structure and quality of the songs are valid (I don't know, not a music theorist so I can't speak to that), that is the single most important album to ME, and if you spoke ill of it, you made an enemy of me....at least for like half an hour or so until I calmed down.

Now, in general I'm pretty laid back, and it takes a LOT of work to tick me off where I am actually angry at someone. My temperament is just of the kind to not take offense at much, and I've always been perfectly cool with the idea of "It's just not my/your thing" and let people like what they like, even if I don't. But even for someone like me, I have my weak points. I'm personally able to keep myself in check even then, but a lot of people can't/don't. For a lot of people, any slight is a personal attack, and they have to respond immediately, and with all guns blazing, because it's the only way they know how to react to that kind of stimulation. This can improve somewhat with age and time, but on a fundamental level, I think it also just boils down to the personality of the individual.

Some people just have Zero Chill, and no amount of rationale debate will fix that, quite the opposite in fact.

For me personally, I don't give more value to the opinion of a 'fan'. The opinion of someone that never saw or never really was interested in Star Wars is just as important as the opinion of someone that consume everything Star Wars.

One thing to keep in mind is that everybody can potencially become a 'fan'. Every movie, every book, comics or games can be the entry way for somebody into this wonderful universe. An exemple that comes to mind for me is my girlfirend. We have been together for close to twenty years now and while she watched every Star Wars movies at least once (she had to, at least once :P), she never really got into it. She like Han, Luke, Leia the story of Anakin and redemption of Vader... but she never really cared for any of it. She understood my passion, but never shared it. Some things were a little bit too silly for her. Until she saw the Sequel Trilogy, and now she's hooked. She loves Poe, Rey, Kylo, Finn, Rose, she spent countless time just watching fanmade videos on Youtube about those characters and she'll come with me to watch Episode 9 when it will release (just like she came with me to watch Episode 8 2 times in theater). While I don't really consider her a fan of everything Star Wars, she's definetly a fan of the new trilogy.

Another exemple is a friend of mine. She is now consuming everything Star Wars be it books, comics or TV Series, but what really got her into it is the new movies. Prior to them, I would not have called her a fan, but now she's one of the most hardcore fan I know. Both of those persons were not fans of Star Wars prior to watching the Sequel trilogy, but now they are, or at least part of it. And I love it! I definetly love the idea of my girlfriend finally sharing my passion of Star Wars and hearing her asking me to watch Star Wars together.

I think it's nice to see the community of Star Wars fans grow. That the movies are not just made to catter to the old fans, but also to welcome new ones. And if we want this trend to continue, to continue to welcome new fans into the community, I don't think that giving more value to the old fans opinions is the right way to go. Sounds like gatekeeping to me.

Star Wars is for everybody.

20 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

someone always has an anecdote that is the opposite of someone else's anecdote

We call this anecdata. It's not a substitute or even a placeholder for data. It's a poor basis for any sound and rational argument, as understood in the theory of communicative action (Habermas 1987, 1996).

I find it fascinating though, the vehemence of some to approximate definitions of "fan" and "true fan" and "die-hard fan" et cetera ad nauseam. As if any such criteria actually solve or assist in the resolution of a taste-based judgement of a piece of cultural expression. Sure, there are criteria that can assist in it, but "fan" is hardly a useful variable under any operationalisation. It's loaded with value and serves only as a distraction, often applied as a logical fallacy to somehow justify or attempt to obtain an illusion of authority.

1 hour ago, Jegergryte said:

We call this anecdata. It's not a substitute or even a placeholder for data. It's a poor basis for any sound and rational argument, as understood in the theory of communicative action (Habermas 1987, 1996).

I find it fascinating though, the vehemence of some to approximate definitions of "fan" and "true fan" and "die-hard fan" et cetera ad nauseam. As if any such criteria actually solve or assists in the resolution of a taste-based judgement of a piece of cultural expression. Sure, there are criteria that can assist in it, but "fan" is hardly a useful variable under any operationalisation. It's loaded with value and serves only as a distraction, often applied as a logical fallacy to somehow justify or attempt to obtain an illusion of authority.

I’m a fan ergo I know better than you...

52 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I’m a fan ergo I know better than you...

But my dad is smarter than your dad AND he has a larger axe and faster chainsaw than your dad, therefore you are in the wrong, and I am right, despite your status as a fan, because "smart," "larger axe" and "faster chainsaw" beats "fan" any day of the week, it's a deadly persuasive combo of irrefutable relevance, authority, and power.

Right? Right.

So, can we get back to analysing the trailer?

I mean, what is that iceberg thingy? Is it like an ice-based cloaking device that hid all those ISDs for three decades?

My dad works for LFL!

1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

I’m a fan ergo I know better than you...

I look at it like this. There are a lot of things to like about Star Wars. Some like parts and not others and others like other parts and not others. I happen to fall into the Fanatics portion. Give me Star Wars, I may not like everything about it, both PM and TLJ had things I enjoyed and several things I didn't but it was still Star Wars.

"True Fans" if it has to be named are anyone that falls into multiple rings.

1 hour ago, kaosoe said:

My dad works for LFL!

Pics or it isn't true....!!!11!!11!!111111!!!1

1 hour ago, Varlie said:

I look at it like this. There are a lot of things to like about Star Wars. Some like parts and not others and others like other parts and not others. I happen to fall into the Fanatics portion. Give me Star Wars, I may not like everything about it, both PM and TLJ had things I enjoyed and several things I didn't but it was still Star Wars.

"True Fans" if it has to be named are anyone that falls into multiple rings.

****! So close to the homerun! I swear, I'm working very hard to like the Prequels...

Hint: you can like the prequels but still hate Episode 1 and still qualify 😁

7 minutes ago, Varlie said:

Hint: you can like the prequels but still hate Episode 1 and still qualify 😁

If I only somewhat like Episode 3... can I still qualify?

my personnal order for the Prequels are 3-1-2