4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

The issue is who is the judge of the passion of another? Where does one person get off saying 'sorry but you don't love it as much as *I* think you should, so I'm going to judge you to not be a fan." And there is a lot of that out there in the nerdsphere.

Most people should be more than able enough to tell if they feel passionate about a topic/person/genre/team/whatever. But this won't keep other people from either creating new "definitions" like Super- or Hardcore-Fan or beeing somewhat Fanatic about it - it is not the right way but as Fan comes from Fanatic it is no surprise that some get on insane levels.

On 11/6/2019 at 10:54 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

And on the flip side, people should be able to understand and accept that other people like and enjoy things that they don't and not take that as an insult. If you can't be bothered to extend that level of respect to people who enjoy things you don't, then feel free to take a long walk of a very short pier.

And that second sentence is exactly the sort of gatekeeping grognard jerkery that makes discourages new people from wanting to have anything to do with Star Wars. Which I guess if fine if one wants the franchise to die and fade away (which it seems is what a lot of those gatekeeping grognards who pass judgment about who is or isn't a "true Star Wars fan" are really after so that they can feel special). Personally, I'd rather have more Star Wars, and more people joining the fandom for it, even parts of the new material aren't of interest; for instance, I don't care one whit about The Mandalorian and probably won't watch a single episode of it, but I also won't badger or crap on people who are excited for it.

Or, take off the nostalgia glasses and re-watch the original films with a far more objective view. I assure you that if you can manage that (not easy to do for many, since it involves checking your bias at the door, something humanity in general is quite bad at), you'll see that they're not nearly as good or flawless as the Fandom Menace would have you believe.

I don't take it as an insult that some people seem to have never met a piece of crappy EU slapstick character, schlocky sci fi ported trope, or a power gamed build-a-bear character they didn't like, I just think those things suck. I'm sure that they are a perfectly good person in real life, and none of this stuff indicates anything about them as a person. The things are just not connected.

The parameters for not liking ESB don't make sense to me in the context of the statement I made. I will be clear, that person may not like ESB, but as a person I make no judgment about them as a person.

But in discussions when someone raises an objection to content the discussion has to stop while the pleasant police berate people for making comments that aren't positive. There is no discussion that is honest if you cannot discuss deficits as well as strengths of that thing. TLJ has faults that are well documented and so in the interest of not having to trot out a page long description I just say that it sucks.

Am I responding to your counter battery fire of my assault on something you apparently like? Yes I am, but I feel like the crusade to mandate the quality of all concepts is the same and that the right answer is to shut up when you don't like something is just not correct. There are plenty of ideas I have that other people think suck, and they are welcome to that. I would not hesitate to interact with them in real life because their likes and dislikes as far as Star Wars are not how I see them as a person.

On 11/6/2019 at 12:05 PM, KungFuFerret said:

The problem is that a lot of people, wrap up their personal identity and value as a person, into their love/obsession with a thing. This isn't exclusive to Star Wars, or nerddom in general. It's just how people are. A significant percentage of humans, find comfort, purpose, and validation, in their love of *Insert Thing*. And when someone else criticizes that thing, even if it's a valid criticism, their reaction is to feel the criticism is pointed at them as a person. Because it's just that important to them. It's not just Star Wars, it's STAR WARS! Maybe it's the thing that helped them get through a troubling childhood, as they used the films and comics and soundtracks, as an escape for a bad life, so they have deep, personal meaning to them. So when someone says "that thing was dumb/lame/badly written", they hear "You think I'm pathetic because I like this thing." So now they are in a defensive mode, they're flushed and anxious, feeling called out in public, even if they are the only ones aware of their current state. And then they start to lash out, with whatever reason they can think of to try and counter what you said, and not just counter it, but to elevate and lionize the thing they hold so dear. And then you get what we have today. People planting flags of fandom, ranting and railing at anyone they deem "other", with a zealous fervor that just makes everything worse.

And I know this happens, because it used to happen to me, with the band RUSH. In particular, a specific album of theirs called Presto. Now, to most people, RUSH sucks. They hate Geddy Lee's voice, they don't find the songs appealing, etc. And even among RUSH fans, most don't like the Presto album, as they feel it was subject to the sin of being made "In the 90s". For me though, I personally attribute that album to saving my life. And I'm not speaking in hyperbole there. Short version, my family is pretty ****** up, and as a teenager, things were not great at home. So I would hide in my room, read my scifi/fantasy novels, play my video games, and listen to my favorite music with headphones on, so I could drown out the yelling in the other room. And for a while there, I considered suicide. But there is a song on Presto, specifically about suicide, and being against it. And the lyrics of Neil Peart (the drummer and lyricist for the band) have always spoken to me personally. And listening to that album as a whole, but that song in particular, helped me realize I could get through the **** at home, and be ok. And for the most part, I was. So that album is deeply important to me. And for a long time, when people would badmouth RUSH, in general, or that album in particular, I would get angry. It would physically make my body flush with adrenaline, in that embarrassment/anger feeling you get. I don't recall ever going off on someone about it? But I sure as **** wanted to. It doesn't matter if their criticisms about the musical structure and quality of the songs are valid (I don't know, not a music theorist so I can't speak to that), that is the single most important album to ME, and if you spoke ill of it, you made an enemy of me....at least for like half an hour or so until I calmed down.

Now, in general I'm pretty laid back, and it takes a LOT of work to tick me off where I am actually angry at someone. My temperament is just of the kind to not take offense at much, and I've always been perfectly cool with the idea of "It's just not my/your thing" and let people like what they like, even if I don't. But even for someone like me, I have my weak points. I'm personally able to keep myself in check even then, but a lot of people can't/don't. For a lot of people, any slight is a personal attack, and they have to respond immediately, and with all guns blazing, because it's the only way they know how to react to that kind of stimulation. This can improve somewhat with age and time, but on a fundamental level, I think it also just boils down to the personality of the individual.

Some people just have Zero Chill, and no amount of rationale debate will fix that, quite the opposite in fact.

Thank you for sharing this KFF, it was well written and I was moved by it. So I am going to put it out there that I too am a Rush fan, and have braved the slings and arrows of those who hate one of my favorite bands I like all eras of Rush and the more modern keyboard stuff doesn't bother me and I like the atmospheric quality of it. I also really like Counterparts though as that heavier sound from them is awesome. A really good friend of mine with whom I have so much in common and who supports me in my worst times hates Rush. I would love it if she saw the genius of their music but it's not in the cards lol. She says very clearly how she hates Rush and explains why she does not like it, and I laugh at those same things I hear so much when the band comes up.

I think what you are saying about flag planting is true and I understand. When encountering people who are really invested in an identity based off something like being the biggest fan of Episode 2 I recognize that you get more with honey than vinegar, but sometimes it gets old having to assent to an assumption of neutrality and null. It's important to be polite and not be all about negativity, but man I feel like sometimes having honesty and frankness is a goal worth chasing. It should be obvious that we all don't share the same passions, and that this is ok. I'm sure that even though we are both Rush fans that there is plenty we would vehemently disagree about, and we can certainly celebrate our likenesses while also being able to disagree. I don't demand that others show love for what they don't love. There is value in knowing why someone dislikes something like a concept in Star Wars, because if you enter a conversation with the possibility that you might learn something you may just do so.

Also thank you for the wisdom of that last line, it was great.

Congrats to Archlyte on completely missing my entire point about gatekeeping the fandom and out-of-hand dismissing the counter opinions of others because you don't judge them to be "proper" fans.

14 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Thank you for sharing this KFF, it was well written and I was moved by it. So I am going to put it out there that I too am a Rush fan, and have braved the slings and arrows of those who hate one of my favorite bands I like all eras of Rush and the more modern keyboard stuff doesn't bother me and I like the atmospheric quality of it. I also really like Counterparts though as that heavier sound from them is awesome.

Yeah I really enjoy Counterparts as well. Most of their later albums are right in my wheelhouse of sound. Oddly enough their earlier stuff are some of my least favorite albums. 2112 is what introduced me to them, and that live album they did with the 10 minute YYZ performance are some of my favs. But their Tolkien inspired albums, and Bytor and the Snow Dog stuff, eh..*shrugs* I could take it or leave it honestly.

14 hours ago, Archlyte said:

A really good friend of mine with whom I have so much in common and who supports me in my worst times hates Rush. I would love it if she saw the genius of their music but it's not in the cards lol. She says very clearly how she hates Rush and explains why she does not like it, and I laugh at those same things I hear so much when the band comes up.

A thing I found funny about a lot of people who have expressed dislike for RUSH to me personally, would say they didn't like Geddy's high pitched voice. But, the funny thing to me about that, is many of them were metal heads, and liked a lot of other bands, that had high pitched male vocalists. Always made me chuckle about this disconnect.

14 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I think what you are saying about flag planting is true and I understand. When encountering people who are really invested in an identity based off something like being the biggest fan of Episode 2 I recognize that you get more with honey than vinegar, but sometimes it gets old having to assent to an assumption of neutrality and null. It's important to be polite and not be all about negativity, but man I feel like sometimes having honesty and frankness is a goal worth chasing.

Sure, honesty is good, but you have to think about "what is the end goal here?" If you're debating somebody in a comic shop about the qualities of Ep. 2, what is the final result? Being determined to argue the point isn't really going to solve anything. It's just a person in a comic shop, and their opinion. I try and look at it from the "energy and effort invested to defend my position versus what possible benefit I might get out of it." if the end result is just one person going "Ok, maybe it's not as crap as I thought." I mean....ok? Yay? But was it worth 2 hours of heated arguing back and forth while people are just trying to buy comics? I don't think so. Also if the thing said is just "I don't really like the film". I won't even argue it. I'll just shrug and be like "ok, to each their own." Maybe it's a thing with age, I dunno. I just don't put as much personal merit in using up my limited time on this planet, arguing with some rabid neckbeard about why Episode 2 betrayed the legacy of Star Wars and blah blah blah. I just...really don't care that much anymore, and I've learned that generally you won't change their mind regardless. They are so entrenched in their personal identity, as defined by their fandom for *Insert Thing*, that it's just not really a battle I bother to participate in.

If they are being a major *** about their comments, I might speak up and tell them to chill out, and remind them it's just a film or something, but I won't bother putting on the gloves and getting into the ring for a 12 round fight anymore. Thought honestly I never really did.

14 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I'm sure that even though we are both Rush fans that there is plenty we would vehemently disagree about, and we can certainly celebrate our likenesses while also being able to disagree. I don't demand that others show love for what they don't love. There is value in knowing why someone dislikes something like a concept in Star Wars, because if you enter a conversation with the possibility that you might learn something you may just do so.

Oh we definitely disagree on things, that much is apparent in these forums, but since most of them boil down to differences in how we run our tables as GMs, I don't really care to argue the point. As I've stated in other threads, it's your table, run it how you want. If you and the players are in agreement, I don't really care what alterations you make to the game.

And yes, knowing why people dislike something is useful, if you plan on trying to debate them on it. Though I have found that very often, a lot of rabid critics have trouble actually articulating the details of why they dislike something, when actually directly asked about it. They'll initially be like "it just sucks!" "Yes, but WHY does it suck for you? What are the flaws? The writing? The acting, what?" And you can see them often kind of stop and be like "...crap, why do I hate this thing?" But, even then, you still hardly ever actually change their mind on things. If they weren't already of a temperament to be willing to change their mind about things, odds are you aren't going to be the one to alter them."

5 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Congrats to Archlyte on completely missing my entire point about gatekeeping the fandom and out-of-hand dismissing the counter opinions of others because you don't judge them to be "proper" fans.

Like you arent guilty of the same behavior when you decide someone criticiams arent valid because you have decided the reason is wrong.

34 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Like you arent guilty of the same behavior when you decide someone criticiams arent valid because you have decided the reason is wrong.

Facts are objective.
Opinions are subjective.

32 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Like you arent guilty of the same behavior when you decide someone criticiams arent valid because you have decided the reason is wrong.

You mean your so-called "criticisms," for instance?

All of which boiled down to you whining about how things weren't explained to you in the films, and every single one of them was A) countered with answers taken from no source other than the film in question, B) a minor application of rationale thinking, or C) are nothing more than you being a churlish boor who freely gives a pass to male characters while openly denigrating female characters?

I've not once tried to declare or tried to decide who is or isn't a fan of Star Wars, which is my point of contention with posts like Archlyte's, P-47's or Vondy's about how certain people are or aren't proper fans based on their deliberately excluding criteria. I and several others here may think you're just being a raging a-hole about how you dislike the new movies simply for the sake of being a raging a-hole rather, or trying to pass your opinions off as undeniable fact (guess what princess, they ain't!), but I'm also not trying to claim that you're not a Star Wars fan; that you're here posting on this forum about Star Wars in and of itself says that you're fan.

But sure, whine on about how your caustic and belligerent attitude and how people are wrong for liking something you didn't is being met with unwarranted hostility You're probably the exact sort of person that would complain about getting thrown out of a restaurant by the cops after you stormed into the kitchen and started literally pissing all over the food that was being prepared.

Here's an idea, how about everyone who wants to have the moral high ground in this bicker-fest, be the mature adult, and just STOP with the barb tossing either way. You can sit there, smug in your mature superiority by NOT continuously flooding threads with personal insults and attacks, and if someone tosses a jab back, they lose the "I'm more mature than you! Nuhuh! I"M more mature by a lot!" competition! Win/Win for all of us!

PS: Replying to this with further barb tossing by proxy automatically disqualify you for the "I'm the mature one" title.

I look forward to blessed silence on the matter from both parties, thus insuring both people are actually mature adults, and able to comport themselves as such. And not petty teenagers in a digital **** waving competition.

The trailers for the ST have always gotten me hyped up! But I have been somewhat disappointed with the ST overall. But still, I am extremely curious as to how they are going to wrap this up! I am certain I will have my gripes, but it looks cool from the trailer.

13 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Here's an idea, how about everyone who wants to have the moral high ground in this bicker-fest, be the mature adult, and just STOP with the barb tossing either way. You can sit there, smug in your mature superiority by NOT continuously flooding threads with personal insults and attacks, and if someone tosses a jab back, they lose the "I'm more mature than you! Nuhuh! I"M more mature by a lot!" competition! Win/Win for all of us!

PS: Replying to this with further barb tossing by proxy automatically disqualify you for the "I'm the mature one" title.

I look forward to blessed silence on the matter from both parties, thus insuring both people are actually mature adults, and able to comport themselves as such. And not petty teenagers in a digital **** waving competition.

But I AM the matoor one. You stating that replying disqualifies me, is wrong, it is gatekeeping, and unfair, and illogical... not to forget irrational. And ... urrr... mean. And not at all matoor.

EDIT: Also, what I understand you're getting or hinting at is what I've dubbed the "socio-politics of entitlement," which I hold is ruining everything these days. Whether but-hurt MRAs, Peterson lackeys, über-woke hipster morons, or otherwise inclined, but similarly backwards, idealistic activists of entitlement .... hiding it behind concepts like: "rights" and "identity" ... bah! Mouth-breathers.

Also: I apologise for starting this thread.

23 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

Also: I apologise for starting this thread.

Not your fault that humanity in general as a species sucks.

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Not your fault that humanity in general as a species sucks.

I know. I think ... but I should be (more) aware that, like me, a lot of people are just difficult, and some cultivate it like an art-form... whether high-art or vulgar-art doesn't matter ultimately

On 11/12/2019 at 10:17 AM, DanteRotterdam said:

Facts are objective.
Opinions are subjective.

This is a simple statement that is absolutely true in a sort of math and science manner, like 1+1 = 2. But then human psychology and memory enter the scene and you have people being reductionist and omitting counter facts or holes in the gathered knowledge on a subject. Also there is the exclusion of whether or not something is potentially falsifiable with future information. Then what you get are people wielding facts they like and trying to smash the whole of reality into a simple explanation.

3 hours ago, Archlyte said:

This is a simple statement that is absolutely true in a sort of math and science manner, like 1+1 = 2. But then human psychology and memory enter the scene and you have people being reductionist and omitting counter facts or holes in the gathered knowledge on a subject. Also there is the exclusion of whether or not something is potentially falsifiable with future information. Then what you get are people wielding facts they like and trying to smash the whole of reality into a simple explanation.

The problem comes when people try to wield their opinions (such as "TLJ is a horrible film and Rian Johnson is a clueless hack") as undeniable and unalterable facts, or claim that "the movie didn't explain this tidbit" when the movie either did explain it or the movie figured the viewer wasn't a braindead goldfish and could figure out what was going on without the reasoning being spoon fed to them. And when they get all huffy about how their so-called "facts" have been shot full of holes, and then act as if they're the aggrieved party simply because their alleged "facts" about why the movie is horrible have been debunked and revealed to be nothing more than opinions, and how the people defending the film are the real monsters.

I've had civil discussions with folks IRL that voiced less hostile versions of several of the "complaints" that routinely get brought up by the YouTube personalities that are on the "bashing all things Disney-produced is cool because it's Disney" train, and when those people were presented with "hey, this was covered in the film" or "this is most likely what was going on," the response was polite. But then, in none of those discussions did those folks try to assert their opinions were anything more than just their opinions, and admit that in several of those cases it was things they simply missed or overlooked. A few of them decided to rewatch the movie, and decided it wasn't nearly as bad as they'd been lead to believe, mostly by those YouTube personalities who are more interested in getting clicks than in anything remotely resembling journalistic integrity.

...let’s move on.

so how will evil Rey from the second trailer figure into all of this

It's probably another cave-vision thing.

I mean, I'd love it if she went dark, but I doubt it...

She looks so stoic in that shot. Almost like she is taken over by something or someone.

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

so how will evil Rey from the second trailer figure into all of this

More likely than not, she's a Force vision, not unlike the Vader in the cave on Dagobah.

What's going to be interesting is the context of that vision. She's already taken the dive (literally) into a dark side nexus in TFA, so it doesn't seem likely that we'll get a repeat of that. Perhaps it's a trick from Palps to try and coerce her into becoming his servant. Or just a Force-induced vision of what she could have been, illustrating a "not so different" between her and Ben Solo.

It's probably a vision of a future where she kills Kylo and takes his place. We haven't really seen the crackling lightsaber effect anywhere else (as far as I know) and it would make sense considering everything else we've gotten so far. I'm pretty certain Rey isn't going dark side. Aside from the more meta reasons, it doesn't make a lot of sense for a main character to turn to the dark side (that dramatically. She is obviously not just dipping into it in that clip) in the last movie of the trilogy, unless that character was then going to be defeated. Otherwise you end up with an all-too-quick character arc that more than anything else, is likely to feel incredibly shallow and pointless. Furthermore, if there was actually going to be a big plot twist of Rey going dark side, they wouldn't put it in the very first teaser trailer. A trailer that is supposed to pique your interest without telling you anything.

16 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Furthermore, if there was actually going to be a big plot twist of Rey going dark side, they wouldn't put it in the very first teaser trailer. A trailer that is supposed to pique your interest without telling you anything.

Depends on who's putting together the trailer. A number of movies have had critical scenes and major reveals spoiled because some executive decided those scenes needed to be in the trailers.

Examples aplenty to be found here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TrailersAlwaysSpoil/LiveActionFilms

That may be, but this is Lucasfilm, notorious for deceptive trailers (Jedi Finn, deceptive editing of "the client," etc.).

I still stand by my theory that the Dark Rey is a vision, but it's for Kylo, not Rey herself. That he's going to be given a vision in some meditation session, where he sees what the result of having Rey turn to his way of thinking, and realizing it would destroy everything about her that he actually cared about. Probably having her quote his "let the past die, kill it if you have to." quote. He'll realize "oh crap, the one person I actually give a crap in this galaxy (excluding my mom who may/may not live due to the actress death), will become nothing like what I care about, if she goes dark. And Palps is likely going to make her go dark. So I should probably go try and fix that, thus saving her, and redeeming myself, though I won't internalize that portion, it will just be a side-effect."

And that the scene of them fighting on the deck of that star destroyer in the rain, is actually Kylo showing up to try and turn her back from the temptation of the emperor, because he knows what's down that road, and doesn't want to see it for her.

I'm probably not going to see it actually play out that way, but it's what I'd like to see.

I 100% think she's a force vision though, just not sure who is receiving the vision. My money's on Kylo, but we'll see.

New teaser!

I wonder why she has not constructed her own lightsaber yet...