I'll allow it. Others in the forum may be a bit more picky

Funny thing about the prequels for me. While I don't think they are great films, I find I enjoy them just fine these days, mostly as just "funny, goofy films that are ok to have on in the background." But the funny thing, the thing that gets almost everyone to agree is bad, the Sand Comment, I actually like. Not the part after it, where Anakin starts stroking her hand, and licking and biting his lip like a complete perv. But the actual, casual comment about not liking sand, I think is probably the most genuine line from Anakin, a slave boy from a desert planet, in the entire trilogy. It always reminded me of Dune, and also of Eskimos and snow. I've heard it said, that Eskimo tribes have like 50 words to describe snow, given it's such a pervasive part of their life, they are intimately familiar with it, and it's differences. And the same for Dune, and the Fremen, in how they described sand and all it's subtle variances. So to me, this kid from the desert, standing on this lush, verdant planet, the complete biological opposite to his native planet, stating about his own environment, makes perfect sense. They were talking about the location, and how beautiful and pretty it was. For him to say "yeah, it's really lovely here, not like home. I hate sand." Which he said with a chuckle and smile, clearly meaning it to be a lighthearted comment. "It's rough, and course.." and looks at her knowingly. "And it gets everywhere..." smirk. Implying that you'd always have sand chafing your bits, no matter how hard you would try and keep it out of your home and pants. That fits! It's a fitting line for someone with that background! It's immediately torpedoed by his "it puts the lotion on it's skin" level of creeptastic behavior right AFTER that line, but nobody ever mocks that. They always mock the sand line itself, which I think is misdirecting the actual criticism.

OT: Eh, the trailer, I mean, yeah it's a thing. It will happen, who knows what the details are supposed to be. You can never tell with that thing.

In all fairness, anaikin is a gigantic space virgin wizard meeting the woman of his dreams, without being taught anything about how to deal with those feelings aside from “control them/ignore them” makes his train wreak of smooth talking perfectly apt. I kinda felt that these scenes were always meant to be super awkward. XD

it also really showed us how the Jedi failed him on so many levels. He just didn’t have help to deal with any of these things he was feeling, and ultimately his relationship with his master seemed, at least in part, adversarial

Yeah, that’s all good and well until the girl falls for it... I was an awkward teen too. I did not get laid too much then.

On 11/6/2019 at 5:51 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

My younger sister has watched and enjoyed all of the Star Wars movies. However, I would not classify her as a Star Wars fan.

Why do you get to define what kind of fan anyone else is?

She wouldn't even define herself as a Star Wars fan. Plus I elaborated as to why.

9 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Funny thing about the prequels for me. While I don't think they are great films, I find I enjoy them just fine these days, mostly as just "funny, goofy films that are ok to have on in the background." But the funny thing, the thing that gets almost everyone to agree is bad, the Sand Comment, I actually like. Not the part after it, where Anakin starts stroking her hand, and licking and biting his lip like a complete perv. But the actual, casual comment about not liking sand, I think is probably the most genuine line from Anakin, a slave boy from a desert planet, in the entire trilogy. It always reminded me of Dune, and also of Eskimos and snow. I've heard it said, that Eskimo tribes have like 50 words to describe snow, given it's such a pervasive part of their life, they are intimately familiar with it, and it's differences. And the same for Dune, and the Fremen, in how they described sand and all it's subtle variances. So to me, this kid from the desert, standing on this lush, verdant planet, the complete biological opposite to his native planet, stating about his own environment, makes perfect sense. They were talking about the location, and how beautiful and pretty it was. For him to say "yeah, it's really lovely here, not like home. I hate sand." Which he said with a chuckle and smile, clearly meaning it to be a lighthearted comment. "It's rough, and course.." and looks at her knowingly. "And it gets everywhere..." smirk. Implying that you'd always have sand chafing your bits, no matter how hard you would try and keep it out of your home and pants. That fits! It's a fitting line for someone with that background! It's immediately torpedoed by his "it puts the lotion on it's skin" level of creeptastic behavior right AFTER that line, but nobody ever mocks that. They always mock the sand line itself, which I think is misdirecting the actual criticism.

OT: Eh, the trailer, I mean, yeah it's a thing. It will happen, who knows what the details are supposed to be. You can never tell with that thing.

The sand quote doesn't really bother me that much. I mean, I laugh every time I hear it, but it's the kind of silly quote coming from Star Wars. Let's just say that Georges Lucas was not the best scripter.

What I have a little bit more trouble with, is how much Anakin acts like a creep the entire Episode 2 movie and yet Padme fall in love with him. I get that he has trouble dealing with his emotion and that he spent his past ten years being told to repress them as much as he can and that he is forbidden to love... but the way he act, I just can't believe that Padme would fall in love with him. Everything he does is a big 'please avoid' warning sign and pretty close to sexual harrasment the way he look at her or touch her. We could make a video about what not to do in the presence of a woman just with all Anakin and Padme scenes from Attack of the Clones.

But, like I said, I want to like the Prequels. And there is good in them. Georges Lucas is a great world builder. He's a genius. As much as I don't like the execution and how it was generally filmed in the prequels, I love what it brought to the Star wars universe. Not a fan of Jar Jar (don't really mind him), but I like the Gungans and the design of Otoh Gunga. I love the contrast of Naboo compared with the rest of the Star Wars universe. Kamino is a great setting with all the lights inside and the darkness and storm outside. Same goes for Geonosis, love it. Podracing, even though the race was a little too long for my taste, was nice, and again, a good addition to the universe (currently trying to have one of my player become a podracer). Mustafar... Prequels brought us some great new worlds. And characters. I love Qui-Gon, Darth Maul or Dooku. I love how it fleshed out the jedi council. And the general story is good. It's a good political plot. Palpatine is always great, Ian is a very talented actor and I can't wait to see it in Episode 9, even if it is still just for one little scene like Yoda in Episode 8.

The only thing killing it for me is the execution. I don't feel any emotion most of the time. Dialogues doesn't sound real and sometimes forced. Same for some scenes... like the scene between Padme and Anakin by the fireplace. She dress very sexy, sit right by the side of Anakin in the dark just lit by the fireplace only to tell him that they can't fall in love. What is that? That's just cruel!

I want to love them, but every time I watch them, there is always something missing, something feeling off. But I still love everything they brought to the Star Wars universe (Clone Wars series might have helped a little bit here) and watch them from time to time.... always hoping.

Clone Wars is by leaps and bounds my favorite piece of Star Wars media. The prequels will always hold a special place in my Star-Wars infested heart, but they certainly had their issues. I skip most of the Anakin ❤️ Padme scenes and just watch the interesting stuff (particularly the Battle of Geonosis; monumentally stupid tactics on the part of the Jedi [poor clones! T_T] but OH! So, so cool [and the tactics are easily explained by Jedi foolishness]).

Episode 3 was much better all round, I can watch it straight through without making people think I'm having a seizure (I struggle with vicarious embarrassment. A lot.).

Three cheers for Clone Wars Season 7!!!

9 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

She wouldn't even define herself as a Star Wars fan. Plus I elaborated as to why.

That just went right over your head, huh?

The point is, you don't get to define what kind of a fan anyone else is. Because that's how we end up with gatekeeping.

And that is a bad thing.

8 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Clone Wars is by leaps and bounds my favorite piece of Star Wars media. The prequels will always hold a special place in my Star-Wars infested heart, but they certainly had their issues. I skip most of the Anakin ❤️ Padme scenes and just watch the interesting stuff (particularly the Battle of Geonosis; monumentally stupid tactics on the part of the Jedi [poor clones! T_T] but OH! So, so cool [and the tactics are easily explained by Jedi foolishness]).

I don't mind the stupid tactics of the Battle of Geonosis, or any battle. Let's be honest, Star Wars has never been about brilliant strategies, right from the start in Episode 4 there is some pretty stupid decisions being made, so I don't see why now people expect military genius from the new movies. Bad battle decisions to lead into the action and moustache twirling villains, that's Star Wars!

What I do find bad (in a funny kind of way bad) is when all the jedi light their lightsaber on Geonosis and they all make a superhero pose while doing so. We can see that it was probably fans playing the jedi living their moment in front of a green screen with no idea what was actually happening. Probably with some simple words from Georges to guide them like: 'Okay, you're a jedi and you light your saber ready for battle, go!'

8 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Three cheers for Clone Wars Season 7!!!

Oh yes definetly, I was so glad when they announced that they would continue Clone Wars!

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

The point is, you don't get to define what kind of a fan anyone else is. Because that's how we end up with gatekeeping.

And that is a bad thing.

I'm sorry, but it is you who is missing the point. I'm not defining what sort of fan anyone is. I was countering Donovan's assertion that anyone who has watched and enjoyed a Star Wars movie is automatically a "Star Wars fan" which is a very broad classification with no bearing on reality. I was countering using an example I know very well that I didn't have to make any sort of assumptions on.

By and large, if someone would describe themselves as a "Star Wars fan" they probably are. That doesn't mean that their opinion on any given subject will be as valuable as someone who really knows the stuff and is a hardcore fan like I, and presumably Donovan, are. There is no opinion (other than "I think Star Wars is great!" [which is a very general statement]) that would classify you as a Star Wars fan or not. I would never contradict someone and tell them "no, you aren't a Star Wars fan" however, I might say, "Oh, you don't know X (i.e. the Starfortresses' bombs were basically guided ordnance*) from the ancillary materials, so you don't actually understand this particular thing (i.e. the bombs dropping towards the dreadnought)" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

*I thought of several explanations while watching that scene in the theater because I realized instantaneously that that was going to be something people would take issue with.

2 hours ago, Red Castle said:

I don't mind the stupid tactics of the Battle of Geonosis, or any battle. Let's be honest, Star Wars has never been about brilliant strategies, right from the start in Episode 4 there is some pretty stupid decisions being made, so I don't see why now people expect military genius from the new movies. Bad battle decisions to lead into the action and moustache twirling villains, that's Star Wars!

Probably mostly propped up by improved tactics in Legends and the Clone Wars.

One thing regarding being bothered by insane tactics is the question of the explanation (or lack thereof): In the case of TLJ, there are a lot of issues (which I won't get into here unless you want me to) and little to no explanation for why.
In the Battle of Geonosis, it was Jedi with no experience leading a huge battle and basically throwing everything at the wall and seeing what stuck. Bad tactics, good explanation (and acknowledgement, see the 501st Journal).

I am a military geek (see handle) and I am pretty good at strategy, so I often see the flaws in tactics and try to figure out why there was X tactical flaw. What was the explanation. Generation Tech/Geetsly's Everything Wrong/Right With ___ series has been pretty helpful for that.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Probably mostly propped up by improved tactics in Legends and the Clone Wars.

One thing regarding being bothered by insane tactics is the question of the explanation (or lack thereof): In the case of TLJ, there are a lot of issues (which I won't get into here unless you want me to) and little to no explanation for why.
In the Battle of Geonosis, it was Jedi with no experience leading a huge battle and basically throwing everything at the wall and seeing what stuck. Bad tactics, good explanation (and acknowledgement, see the 501st Journal).

I am a military geek (see handle) and I am pretty good at strategy, so I often see the flaws in tactics and try to figure out why there was X tactical flaw. What was the explanation. Generation Tech/Geetsly's Everything Wrong/Right With ___ series has been pretty helpful for that.

I'm also a military geek, more specifically with WW2 (my user name is the translation of one of the japanese carrier ), but unless a movie/book try to pretend as if it is actual genius, I don't have a problem with bad tactical decisions in a movie. Just like I did a lot of fencing, but I don't expect sword combat to be real in movies, especially if it is a fantasy setting.

Regarding The Last Jedi, like you said it has been discussed too many times already so no point to do yet again, but I'll just say that I don't mind the bad military decisions. Like I said, it's been part of Star Wars from the beginning. The battle of Yavin has a lot of issues, the invasion of Hoth, the battle of Endor, the battle of Naboo, Geonosis... the one difference with the Last Jedi is that it is the first time (if I recall correctly) that the movie acknowledge that the leader is not a good tactician and should not be leading the battle, and I respect it for that. It's not like the other battles where we are meant to believe that, for exemple, Tarkin is an actual tactician genius. Hux is stupid and the movie (and books) doesn't try to hide it.

edited to add the part about my username

4 hours ago, penpenpen said:

The point is, you don't get to define what kind of a fan anyone else is. Because that's how we end up with gatekeeping.

And that is a bad thing.

I guess it comes down to whose set of criteria she's using to determine what level of fan (if any) she is.

One of the ladies that I game with for the longest time didn't consider herself to be a Star Wars fan because she had only seen the prequels as a teen (which she liked and enjoyed) and the originals later on (which she had mixed feelings about but still liked), simply because she was judging her level of fandom on the sort of gatekeeping purity BS that the sweaty neckbeards at the local gaming/comic shop where she grew up used. It wasn't until years later when her husband (who has seen and enjoyed a much broader range than her) discussed the matter with her after she claimed that she wasn't a fan of Star Wars when the topic of going to see the new movies came up. End result of that discussion was acknowledging that she was a Star Wars fan, and that just because she hadn't experienced as large a volume of the available content didn't make her any less of a fan.

Now, my friend's still not done a deep-dive into all the comics, books, and what-have-you; she's seen all the movies to this point (RotS remains her favorite, Rogue One her least favorite), as well as Rebels (loved), Resistance (loves), and about a third of TCW (pretty meh, adores Obi-Wan and hates Ahsoka but is willing to keep watching in the hopes of the show explaining how the little brat of TCW managed to evolve into the cool lady she first met in Rebels), but she also doesn't have an interest in venturing much into the books or comics (she's intrigued by Doctor Aphra, but yet hasn't picked up any of the trades) or video games. And I for one welcome her into the fandom fold with open arms.

So in the case of P-47 Thunderdolt's sister, I guess her assessment of "is she a Star Wars fan or not?" comes down to whose qualifications she's using. I'm hoping she's not fallen into the same trap that my friend above fell into and is discounting herself from being a fan because she doesn't pass some load of crap "purity" test that's meant to gatekeep the franchise.

I hate Star Wars... I only bought the FFG stuff to burn it and post it on Youtube to spite someone who gets into the game after FFG stop printing it.. I'll even melt my four sets if dice in the microwave for sh*ts and giggles...

38 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I guess it comes down to whose set of criteria she's using to determine what level of fan (if any) she is.

One of the ladies that I game with for the longest time didn't consider herself to be a Star Wars fan because she had only seen the prequels as a teen (which she liked and enjoyed) and the originals later on (which she had mixed feelings about but still liked), simply because she was judging her level of fandom on the sort of gatekeeping purity BS that the sweaty neckbeards at the local gaming/comic shop where she grew up used. It wasn't until years later when her husband (who has seen and enjoyed a much broader range than her) discussed the matter with her after she claimed that she wasn't a fan of Star Wars when the topic of going to see the new movies came up. End result of that discussion was acknowledging that she was a Star Wars fan, and that just because she hadn't experienced as large a volume of the available content didn't make her any less of a fan.

Now, my friend's still not done a deep-dive into all the comics, books, and what-have-you; she's seen all the movies to this point (RotS remains her favorite, Rogue One her least favorite), as well as Rebels (loved), Resistance (loves), and about a third of TCW (pretty meh, adores Obi-Wan and hates Ahsoka but is willing to keep watching in the hopes of the show explaining how the little brat of TCW managed to evolve into the cool lady she first met in Rebels), but she also doesn't have an interest in venturing much into the books or comics (she's intrigued by Doctor Aphra, but yet hasn't picked up any of the trades) or video games. And I for one welcome her into the fandom fold with open arms.

So in the case of P-47 Thunderdolt's sister, I guess her assessment of "is she a Star Wars fan or not?" comes down to whose qualifications she's using. I'm hoping she's not fallen into the same trap that my friend above fell into and is discounting herself from being a fan because she doesn't pass some load of crap "purity" test that's meant to gatekeep the franchise.

I had a Sequel Trilogy era SW fan state I WAS NOT a proper SW fan as I only really liked the OT, and the PT (this was a few years ago before R1 and eps 7 & 8 existed)... I let this an*lly retentive, beta-male, mommie's boy/daddie's little soldier continue on his tirade for a good 10 minutes explaining that I was not a fan because I had not read any of the novels, comics, guides, maps, atlases, official splat etc that had been released before the PT... I had worked out a few put downs while he ranted.. I just replied with 'At least I got to see the OT in their original theatrical release that proves Han shot first - which I now have on the OTR Special edition DVD collection... he was a bit stunned with that remark but it got a few smiles from people nearby in my Not-So-LFGS... that being said this was one of the regular gamers who used the gaming table... I only shop online now. If that's the kind of f*ckwits we 'mild' SW fans have to deal with they can have their franchise...

28 minutes ago, ExpandingUniverse said:

I hate Star Wars... I only bought the FFG stuff to burn it and post it on Youtube to spite someone who gets into the game after FFG stop printing it.. I'll even melt my four sets if dice in the microwave for sh*ts and giggles...

I may even pull up outside that Not-So-LFGS and way for THAT fan and burn it in front if him

(Merriam-Webster) Fan. Definition: 1. an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or performing art) usually as a spectator 2. an ardent admirer or enthusiast (as of a celebrity or pursuit)

By that measure, she does not describe herself as a fan.

If you are using it extremely colloquially, then you and I are arguing over the length of something while using different units of measure.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I guess it comes down to whose set of criteria she's using to determine what level of fan (if any) she is.

One of the ladies that I game with for the longest time didn't consider herself to be a Star Wars fan because she had only seen the prequels as a teen (which she liked and enjoyed) and the originals later on (which she had mixed feelings about but still liked), simply because she was judging her level of fandom on the sort of gatekeeping purity BS that the sweaty neckbeards at the local gaming/comic shop where she grew up used. It wasn't until years later when her husband (who has seen and enjoyed a much broader range than her) discussed the matter with her after she claimed that she wasn't a fan of Star Wars when the topic of going to see the new movies came up. End result of that discussion was acknowledging that she was a Star Wars fan, and that just because she hadn't experienced as large a volume of the available content didn't make her any less of a fan.

Yeah the levels of "fandom" have always been stupid to me. I've watched the OT enough times where I can almost quote it verbatim, though I do have to be watching them when I do it for a mental cue, not just cold reading sitting in a coffee shop or something. Going to see Return of the Jedi in the theaters was one of the earliest memories I have, and the reaction of the audience in that film has burned into my brain. I owned a metric ton of the toys as a kid, and played with them for years.

I have also avoided most of the EU/Legacy content, because I find most of it to be utter crap as far as quality, and can't be arsed to waste my money on what I consider to be nothing better than published fan fiction, before fan fiction was a thing.

And I'd laugh in the face of anyone who tried to tell me I wasn't a "true fan", because I can't cite the ship schematics for a YT-1300 off the top of my head, and state what it's cargo capacity and weapon mounting capacity is. Because those people are just pathetic people who have wrapped up their personal identity and sense of self worth, into encyclopedic knowledge of a fictional product franchise, and I frankly don't care what they think.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

I can't cite the ship schematics for a YT-1300 off the top of my head,

*gasp* And here I was, thinking of you as an equal, worthy of treading these virtual halls of glory!

Begone, treacherous knave!

26 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

*gasp* And here I was, thinking of you as an equal, worthy of treading these virtual halls of glory!

Begone, treacherous knave!

NEVAAAARH!!

Fan comes from Fanatic/Fanaticus - so at least some amount of passion seems appropriate to qualify when talking about definitions.

On 11/7/2019 at 11:30 PM, Red Castle said:

We could make a video about what not to do in the presence of a woman just with all Anakin and Padme scenes from Attack of the Clones.

Already been done...

RedLetterMedia's blue comedy singes my hair a bit, but the cultural impact of Plinkett has been incredible. The critique was good enough. Presenting it through the obsessive work of a crazy, old murderer was genius. Mike Stoklasa shared the frustration many of us had over Lucas' direction with Star Wars that we'd kept quiet because...complaining about Star Wars is maniacally dorky. Articulate it through a dorky maniac, though, and all you have left is the message.

A7T's comment a few pages back about social media and the Prequels reminded me that lack of technology made a difference, but — it was a different time. I was in college when my friends and I watched The Phantom Menace. It wasn't what I was expecting. Didn't feel right. I wanted to like it but gave up on third rewatch. I backed away from Star Wars (I've actually never seen Episodes II or III). KOTOR suggested that other stories could be told in the genre, but for years I wondered if the OT really only was that single story Star Wars had in it that Lucas miraculously ended just in time. Thought maybe it wasn't for me, anymore. Plinkett made me realize how many others felt the same way. Online, a movement assembled and became aggressive; I'd be amazed if it didn't factor into Lucas' franchise sale. I stayed quiet.

I've come into Disney's offerings from the very bottom of expectations. I think they're good movies. Not great; just good. I don't agree with Donovan that TLJ will rise to the acclaim of ESB, but I don't think it has to. And while I think the ST outdoes the PT on most counts, to me it falls short on creative spark (no Lucas), sound design (no Ben Burtt) and scoring (limited John Williams, and modern composers don't hold a candle if Disney even had them trying). But, again, I'm not upset about it. Star Wars succeeded because it was living mythology in a world that had none left, and I suspect that the more it's shared, told and retold, the less we worry about what's correct.

5 hours ago, Malashim said:

Fan comes from Fanatic/Fanaticus - so at least some amount of passion seems appropriate to qualify when talking about definitions.

The issue is who is the judge of the passion of another? Where does one person get off saying 'sorry but you don't love it as much as *I* think you should, so I'm going to judge you to not be a fan." And there is a lot of that out there in the nerdsphere.