9 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

What words?

The ones under discussion, obviously. You know this.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Princess Leia vs. Vice Admiral Holdo. I really don't care though, I hadn't even thought about her dress until it was brought up today.

That's General Organa these days. Holdo is a childhood friend of Leia's who runs in the same social circles as her highness. And is far more eccentric and a bit of a hippie. So, pink hair and a dress. General Han Solo just wore his civies, while general Calrissian wore the proper uniform, personalised with a cape.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

The ones under discussion, obviously. You know this.

Alright, tell me what words are under discussion.

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Alright, tell me what words are under discussion.

Yeah, this seems like a sincere request.

8 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Yeah, this seems like a sincere request.

No, seriously. What did I say that would tell you that I'm sexist? If I said something to that effect, I'd want to explain myself.

22 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

What words?

Princess Leia vs. Vice Admiral Holdo. I really don't care though, I hadn't even thought about her dress until it was brought up today.

I was quoting Vondy, since it was his comment. I don't think she goes by Princess (of a world that doesn't exist) anymore. Everyone but Max von Sydow seems to call her general. And she definitely wears dresses.

1 minute ago, Vek Baustrade said:

I was quoting Vondy, since it was his comment. I don't think she goes by Princess (of a world that doesn't exist) anymore. Everyone but Max von Sydow seems to call her general. And she definitely wears dresses.

I was thinking of TFA vs. A New Hope. I had forgotten that Leia wore dresses during TLJ because I've watched TFA much more than TLJ.

On 10/27/2019 at 10:39 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

Yeah, I'm not seeing how Rey is a clone, either of Kylo, Luke, Palps, or anyone else for that matter.

One of the themes of the new films (though perhaps a bit subtle) is that anyone can become the hero if they've the will to do it. Rey being "nobody from nowhere" and not tied to any of the greater legacies or figures of power from the previous movies makes for a better character.

As Stan said, we do see a brief flash of her past, when her parents abandoned her. And given how Kylo seems to her mind through their Force bond, he's probably on some level aware of what she knows about her own past, and used that in TLJ to try and get her to join him, getting her to at last confess out loud that her parents were nobody.

One of Rey's arcs through the two films thus far is trying to get some form of replacement for her departed parents, be it Han in TFA as a supportive father-figure or Luke in TLJ as a mentor, and her Force vision in the Atch-To cave was the Force's way of showing her that she didn't need to rely on parents (actual or substitute or mentors to support her, but that she was capable of supporting herself, that all the answers she'd been craving were inside herself.

It's not unlike Anakin's appearance in TPM (going solely by what's in the movie), in that he just "showed up" being unusually strong in the Force, and not even having a father. And as other Jedi had to come from somewhere, why is it so hard for some to accept that Rey was created the natural way and that the Force for ineffable reasons selected her as the new "chosen one' to combat the rising darkness that is Kylo Ren? Even in Legends, we've had Force users that came from nowhere who turned out to be astonishingly strong in the Force, with Revan of the KOTOR era being a prime example, with the only "legacy" he had was the one he forged for himself.

9 hours ago, Vondy said:

This boils down to Abrams handing Johnson a hook on a silver platter, Johnson pointedly ignoring it in favor of his own vision, and Abrams returning to answer the giant elephant of a question that he put out there. From Johnson's own account the yo-yo handling of Rey's background was more about directorial ego than good story telling. Rian Johnson is a talented director who doesn't understand the franchise or fans as well as Abrams does. Lucas' vision was that this was the Skywalker Saga . You can argue that ended in the throne room over Endor, but from all interviews on the historical record Lucas' sequels would have been about their legacy. Attempting to do away with that in the eighth of nine installments without so much as a nod was... benighted.

Johnson is on record saying that is exactly what he wanted to do. Down with elitist legacies and all that. Feel good kid with a broom coda, blah-blah-blah. Johnson's film hit some very high and very low notes. It was crazy uneven. Purple-haired admirals in evening gowns aside, his handling of The Rey Question as was the definitive low note. He made Abrams' job a lot harder than need be. I also think its why Disney brought Abrams back. They made a mistake: there was no oversight ensuring the three films had a coherent thread running through them. If Johnson weren't on record saying he was intentionally acting as a spoiler and going his own way I would agree with your assertion: make it look implausible and double down. But, in this case, the director told us what was going on behind the curtain. Abrams is the necessary clean up crew.

Now, I'm not saying Rey has to be a Skywalker. Abrams may well have a clever twist that would be very satisfying and let's him pretend "this is what was intended all along." I await with baited breath to see how he handles the pickle Johnson put him in. The running joke-theory in our house is that Anakin wasn't a Skywalker either. He was Space Jesus and Skywalker was the name he plucked for himself out of thin air because he didn't have one. Rey has no parents? Maybe she was immaculately conceived of the Force via midichlorians and a human mother? Maybe she's Space Jesusa and her legacy is to finish what Anakin began: bringing balance to the Force. That would make her as much a Skywalker as Anakin was and fit with some of Luke's views about the Jedi being past their sell by date. Skywalker = conceived of the Holy Spirit, er, the Force! Right! Erm. Sure. We shall see.

Note: I don't really have an issue with purple hair. A purple-haired admiral in a uniform would have been pure gold.

This^ The saga films are, and always have been about the Skywalker bloodline. That came straight from GL himself. So having the main protagonist be a "nobody", unrelated to the Skywalkers doesn't sit well with that established fact. And, as such, I definitely see JJ Abrams undoing that part of what Johnson did with Rey on that matter. Regardless, it that didn't keep me from enjoying the movie any.

6 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I'm not a fan of Holdo's Sacrifice either, but mainly because I felt it should've been Leia staying behind, as she was the older member of the cast, and they were clearly cycling out the elderly actors for a new generation of people. Having Holdo take over as Leia's replacement, in an ongoing manner made more narrative sense to me, as this whole trilogy is about passing the torch to a new generation. But, *shrugs*, they chose otherwise.

If they'd had a crystal ball, that might've happened. But, the torch-passing appears to have been structured to give one of the Big Three a spotlight and exit in each of the films. Ford/Han got his in TFA, Hamill/Luke in TLJ, with Fisher/Leia originally slated to get hers in (what is now) TRoS. Life, tragically, worked against that. Part of me strongly suspects that, if Carrie were still with us, we wouldn't be seeing Hamill in this installment.

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This^ The saga films are, and always have been about the Skywalker bloodline. That came straight from GL himself. So having the main protagonist be a "nobody", unrelated to the Skywalkers doesn't sit well with that established fact. And, as such, I definitely see JJ Abrams undoing that part of what Johnson did with Rey on that matter. Regardless, it that didn't keep me from enjoying the movie any.

That's a retcon, though. In New Hope, Vader wasn't even Luke's father. Leia didn't become a Skywalker until Return of the Jedi. That whole saga/bloodline thing is only something applied to the movies in retrospect.

3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's a retcon, though. In New Hope, Vader wasn't even Luke's father. Leia didn't become a Skywalker until Return of the Jedi. That whole saga/bloodline thing is only something applied to the movies in retrospect.

Prior to making the prequels, the trilogy was Luke's story from start to finish. After making the prequels, the whole thing became the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, with Luke being moved down to a supporting character in Anakin's broader story arc.

Point is, Lucas has a habit of revising his views on things as time goes on, so taking everything he says at face value is inadvisable, as there's probably an earlier or later statement that completely contradicts what he's saying at that moment.

Plus, there's the simple fact that Lucas no longer owns Star Wars, so what he envisions things to be prior to selling the franchise to Disney isn't really relevant where the new media is concerned. Plus, there is still a Skywalker at the center of the sequel trilogy, it just so happens that the Skywalker in question is the bad guy.

5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's a retcon, though. In New Hope, Vader wasn't even Luke's father. Leia didn't become a Skywalker until Return of the Jedi. That whole saga/bloodline thing is only something applied to the movies in retrospect.

That's one of the reason why I don't really take seriously the complaint about the sequel trilogy that not everything was written in advanced. The idea of Vader being Luke's father only came to be during the writing of the second or third draft of Empire Strike Back (and sadly maybe because the person that wrote the first draft passed away so could not write a second draft. In the first draft Anakin came to see Luke as a ghost on Dagobah), and that's kinda one of the big plot point of Episode 6. Things change with time.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Plus, there is still a Skywalker at the center of the sequel trilogy, it just so happens that the Skywalker in question is the bad guy.

Another point that some fans seems to miss. The Sequel trilogy is just as much Kylo Ren story than it is Rey's journey. We are following Ben's journey into darkness and hopefully redemption at the end.

10 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

If they'd had a crystal ball, that might've happened. But, the torch-passing appears to have been structured to give one of the Big Three a spotlight and exit in each of the films. Ford/Han got his in TFA, Hamill/Luke in TLJ, with Fisher/Leia originally slated to get hers in (what is now) TRoS. Life, tragically, worked against that. Part of me strongly suspects that, if Carrie were still with us, we wouldn't be seeing Hamill in this installment.

Oh I know it's out of their hands that she died, but it's still something that bugs me narratively. Personally I would've liked for both Leia and Luke to go out in this film, and just cut that umbilical cord clean, leaving the last film to be entirely in the hands of the new generation to deal with. No more wisdom or power from the previous generation, they're gone. It's up to us now. Personally, I'd find that WAY more satisfying.

Regarding Luke in Ep 9 though, regardless of the Leia/Carrie issue, I suspect he would show up in Ep 9 no matter what. The whole Force Ghost thing is just too easy of a plot device to allow some exposition to the protagonist, and to establish an emotional dilemma for them to deal with.

6 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Oh I know it's out of their hands that she died, but it's still something that bugs me narratively. Personally I would've liked for both Leia and Luke to go out in this film, and just cut that umbilical cord clean, leaving the last film to be entirely in the hands of the new generation to deal with. No more wisdom or power from the previous generation, they're gone. It's up to us now. Personally, I'd find that WAY more satisfying.

Regarding Luke in Ep 9 though, regardless of the Leia/Carrie issue, I suspect he would show up in Ep 9 no matter what. The whole Force Ghost thing is just too easy of a plot device to allow some exposition to the protagonist, and to establish an emotional dilemma for them to deal with.

With Carrie's passing, it's entirely possible that they'll have her exit the film as early as the first act, thus setting things up so that the fate of the galaxy is indeed in the hands of the new generation. There's probably only so much unused footage from TFA that they can use, so it makes sense to not stretch Leia's appearances throughout the film.

I do agree that Luke's most likely going to show up in Episode 9 as a Force ghost, even if it's just one final scene before the final act to impart a last bit of encouragement to Rey or perhaps even some final admonishments to Ben. Plus, he's on the cast page per IMDB, I'd say it's all but confirmed that Luke's ghost is going to pop up at least once in the film. Of course, it could be a flashback sequence rather than him being a Force ghost, or what in-setting was pre-recorded footage (maybe Rey went back to Acht-To during the time skip and recovered some of Luke's possessions, including a final recording he made prior to TLJ's final act that gets played during TRoS).

6 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

With Carrie's passing, it's entirely possible that they'll have her exit the film as early as the first act, thus setting things up so that the fate of the galaxy is indeed in the hands of the new generation. There's probably only so much unused footage from TFA that they can use, so it makes sense to not stretch Leia's appearances throughout the film.

Yeah I agree, my personal theory is they are going to have some kind of ship accident, or surprise attack from the First Order as they are disembarking, or Leia is staying behind in the ship for some normal reason while everyone else gets out, "I'll be right there! Just let me get this last thingy before we shut the ship down!" kind of scene. And then boom, everyone is surprised, looks shocked, we can all share in the sudden loss feeling of the character, echoing the sudden loss of the actress. *shrugs* That's what I'd prefer, but who knows how they decide to do it.

10 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I do agree that Luke's most likely going to show up in Episode 9 as a Force ghost, even if it's just one final scene before the final act to impart a last bit of encouragement to Rey or perhaps even some final admonishments to Ben. Plus, he's on the cast page per IMDB, I'd say it's all but confirmed that Luke's ghost is going to pop up at least once in the film. Of course, it could be a flashback sequence rather than him being a Force ghost, or what in-setting was pre-recorded footage (maybe Rey went back to Acht-To during the time skip and recovered some of Luke's possessions, including a final recording he made prior to TLJ's final act that gets played during TRoS).

Do they have to list an actor in a film if all of the footage of that actor is pre-recorded material from a previously published project? Like re-purposing Last Jedi material in Rise of Skywalker? Seems like that wouldn't need to be listed as acting credit to me, but then I'm not up to speed on entertainment law.

Carrie Fisher is also listed on the cast credits for the film, with a note that it's via archive footage.

There's a similar note on Edward Furlong's listing for Terminator: Dark Fate, listing him as "John Connor reference" as opposed to him actually appearing in the film itself.

It might not be entertainment law such as Screen Actor Guild guidelines, as the actor who played Red Leader has a credit for Rogue One that includes the archive footage tag, but there's no listing for either Carrie Fisher or Peter Cushing for the same movie, as their characters were recreated digitally and imposed over the faces of other actors (who are credited).

2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Carrie Fisher is also listed on the cast credits for the film, with a note that it's via archive footage.

There's a similar note on Edward Furlong's listing for Terminator: Dark Fate, listing him as "John Connor reference" as opposed to him actually appearing in the film itself.

It might not be entertainment law such as Screen Actor Guild guidelines, as the actor who played Red Leader has a credit for Rogue One that includes the archive footage tag, but there's no listing for either Carrie Fisher or Peter Cushing for the same movie, as their characters were recreated digitally and imposed over the faces of other actors (who are credited).

On the final poster (released the same day as the final trailer), Carrie Fisher receives top billing. Both trailer and poster were released on her birthday.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Carrie Fisher is also listed on the cast credits for the film, with a note that it's via archive footage.

There's a similar note on Edward Furlong's listing for Terminator: Dark Fate, listing him as "John Connor reference" as opposed to him actually appearing in the film itself.

It might not be entertainment law such as Screen Actor Guild guidelines, as the actor who played Red Leader has a credit for Rogue One that includes the archive footage tag, but there's no listing for either Carrie Fisher or Peter Cushing for the same movie, as their characters were recreated digitally and imposed over the faces of other actors (who are credited).

Huh, *shrugs* well no clue what it means for Mark then, though I suspect it's going to be pretty easy to convince him to come back for some ghosty mentor content. It's thematically appropriate with the series, has a long standing tradition in all branches of the franchise, and just makes narrative sense to have Ghost Mentor show up when the character is at their lowest, to encourage them to keep going. That's just how that kind of storytelling works. So yeah, I suspect he's got new content in Ep 9, not just archival footage.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Huh, *shrugs* well no clue what it means for Mark then, though I suspect it's going to be pretty easy to convince him to come back for some ghosty mentor content. It's thematically appropriate with the series, has a long standing tradition in all branches of the franchise, and just makes narrative sense to have Ghost Mentor show up when the character is at their lowest, to encourage them to keep going. That's just how that kind of storytelling works. So yeah, I suspect he's got new content in Ep 9, not just archival footage.

The Vanity Fair article did have a picture of him (as Luke) in among the mix, after all....

On 10/30/2019 at 3:16 AM, Stan Fresh said:

That's a retcon, though. In New Hope, Vader wasn't even Luke's father. Leia didn't become a Skywalker until Return of the Jedi. That whole saga/bloodline thing is only something applied to the movies in retrospect.

It was a part of Lucas' original story treatments from the get-go. IT's not a retcon.

36 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It was a part of Lucas' original story treatments from the get-go. IT's not a retcon.

We're at a point were there is no real way of knowing what was even in Lucas's original anythings. He's gone as far as retconning actual interviews he had in the 70's and reprinting them with added references to midichlorians that were not part of the original interview.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It was a part of Lucas' original story treatments from the get-go. IT's not a retcon.

No. Leia being Luke's sister, and Vader being his dad, are all ideas that came only later to the movies.

There was a "history of Star Wars" film series that I watched a few years ago, and had some interesting insights into the process that went into making each of the three original films.

And Stan is correct in that the whole "Leia is Luke's sister" and "Vader is Luke's father" were very much not part of the initial concepts; Lucas initially planned to Anakin's ghost show up on Dagobah, before scrapping that and simplifying his work on writing the script (a job he very much didn't want for ESB but had to take because his original choice passed away after she completed the initial draft) by combining the characters of Anakin and Vader. It was frankly dumb luck that Sir Alec Guiness included that brief pause before answering Luke's question of how Anakin died, allowing for a fairly simple retcon of "Ben hesitated before deciding to tell Luke a very simplified version of what happened."

Same thing with Leia, as in the earlier drafts of RotJ, Luke's sister was going to be a separate and brand new character, but again Lucas opted to simplify things, and rather than drag the movie by introducing a brand new heroine, figured he'd just make Leia be the sister and try to overlook/ignore the infamous kiss she gave Luke on Hoth.

Heck, in his original concepts, the character of Luke Skywalker was a girl, so anyone trying to claim that the Skywalker family tree as we saw it in the films was Lucas' idea from the outset is full of it.

18 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Same thing with Leia, as in the earlier drafts of RotJ, Luke's sister was going to be a separate and brand new character, but again Lucas opted to simplify things, and rather than drag the movie by introducing a brand new heroine, figured he'd just make Leia be the sister and try to overlook/ignore the infamous kiss she gave Luke on Hoth.

The way I remember it, Luke's sister wasn't supposed to be in Return Of The Jedi at all. She was going to be a pirate queen or something like that that Luke was going to go look for in Episode VII, but then Lucas decided he wasn't going to do anymore Star Wars after Return Of The Jedi, and had her be Leia instead.

5 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

The way I remember it, Luke's sister wasn't supposed to be in Return Of The Jedi at all. She was going to be a pirate queen or something like that that Luke was going to go look for in Episode VII, but then Lucas decided he wasn't going to do anymore Star Wars after Return Of The Jedi, and had her be Leia instead.

That's what I recall, as well. Also that those potential threads were truncated and/or condensed due to his impending divorce, to avoid having to split or lose anything made from next episodes.