55 minutes ago, jagsba said:

@Brunas , this version of rebel good stuff did a bit better than y'alls.

TRUE

16 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@DTDanix one thing that would be interesting to hear your perspective on is how you used Braylen in the list.

Did you primarily toss Jake Focuses to Braylen for linked rolls, or did those go to Sir Wedge?
What did you do to keep Braylen on target for more than just the first pass? I have run Braylen a little bit and solving that puzzle is kinda what makes him interesting.

Assume 1 forwards, keeping him a little further back to increase time on target, or picking a good lane to attack and be able to bank into the next engage etc.
I run Scorch alot who stresses for extra red dice similar to Braylen stressing for mods, alot of effort goes into giving him a long run way or lane to attack from.

Keeping Braylen relevant is very matchup dependent. Against aces, it can be quite tricky, and I failed spectacularly at this in the finals.

My general strategy was to deploy somewhat spread out with jake/wedge together at a board edge opposite the opponent's main force and the Z near the middle, inside from the obstacle where the opponent deployed. Blount/Braylen would be somewhere between those, sometimes with Braylen facing down my board edge instead of towards the opponent if I really worried about a strong flanker.

Wedge's goal is to stay safe but make sure guns are on target at the same time as everyone else. Jake gives focus mostly to wedge but stays between wedge and the main force, Blount/Bray come up with the middle as the main target for the enemy, and the Z is just trying to be annoying.

For quite a few games, the Z would end up flanking because nobody wants to really do a super wide flank just to get behind a Z. As long as he slow rolls and survives, hopefully with some obstacle coverage, he can then jump in and be annoying. The trick is not jumping in too early so you can live at range 3 first.

By staying between wedge and the main force, Jake can come over to help Braylen/Blount as necessary. Several games, I found Braylen got blocked but Jake was able to come over and give him a focus to let him also br, which is quite strong.

With Braylen, the most important thing is to realize when you need to 2 hard and keep stress vs clear stress and then whether you need to stay unstressed or not. Something I needed to do better in the finals, as he stayed stress a little too much vs the squirrely aces and wasn't getting the shots he needed.

I think the real power of this list is that it doesn't present the opponent with great choices. Shooting Braylen and Jake is annoying as they have the highest defense. Shooting either z doesn't feel fantastic either, and Wedge is the hardest to get good shots on when everyone else is present and there's always the threat of him running away. Jake giving focus/boost to Wedge was also quite key in several matchups to get the best engage.

12 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

Keeping Braylen relevant is very matchup dependent. Against aces, it can be quite tricky, and I failed spectacularly at this in the finals.

My general strategy was to deploy somewhat spread out with jake/wedge together at a board edge opposite the opponent's main force and the Z near the middle, inside from the obstacle where the opponent deployed. Blount/Braylen would be somewhere between those, sometimes with Braylen facing down my board edge instead of towards the opponent if I really worried about a strong flanker.

Wedge's goal is to stay safe but make sure guns are on target at the same time as everyone else. Jake gives focus mostly to wedge but stays between wedge and the main force, Blount/Bray come up with the middle as the main target for the enemy, and the Z is just trying to be annoying.

For quite a few games, the Z would end up flanking because nobody wants to really do a super wide flank just to get behind a Z. As long as he slow rolls and survives, hopefully with some obstacle coverage, he can then jump in and be annoying. The trick is not jumping in too early so you can live at range 3 first.

By staying between wedge and the main force, Jake can come over to help Braylen/Blount as necessary. Several games, I found Braylen got blocked but Jake was able to come over and give him a focus to let him also br, which is quite strong.

With Braylen, the most important thing is to realize when you need to 2 hard and keep stress vs clear stress and then whether you need to stay unstressed or not. Something I needed to do better in the finals, as he stayed stress a little too much vs the squirrely aces and wasn't getting the shots he needed.

I think the real power of this list is that it doesn't present the opponent with great choices. Shooting Braylen and Jake is annoying as they have the highest defense. Shooting either z doesn't feel fantastic either, and Wedge is the hardest to get good shots on when everyone else is present and there's always the threat of him running away. Jake giving focus/boost to Wedge was also quite key in several matchups to get the best engage.

Lots of good stuff in here thanks for the reply.

Deploying somewhat spread out and keeping Wedge "safe" but involved is a balancing act for sure. The more spread out things get the more vulnerable individual components are, same is true the closer you get to running everything in a box ( then the aces kinda get to make you "choose" which flank to call instead of the other way around). Makes sense that Jakes ability to boost/speed helped him react to what needed support.

Somewhat random question, but how often if ever did you use Wedge's boost action?
Always seemed like a slightly under appreciated part of the T65. Lets them manage build up to engagements a little better than just the barrel roll.

Leaving Wedge's boost open early so jake can let him focus/boost then do a blue then target lock is amazing.

Later in the game, boost isn't as relevant unless you have to run away and dodge arcs, chase a squirrely ace, or got out of position.

Having a spread out deployment limits your opponents options, but you have to make sure you can converge quickly. You definitely don't want the first round of shooting to happen without key pieces like Braylen/wedge unless it's just a single shot at the z or something. I think the finals opening was a good example of how the opponent didn't have anywhere great to go early game due to my positioning.

53 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

Keeping Braylen relevant is very matchup dependent. Against aces, it can be quite tricky, and I failed spectacularly at this in the finals.

My general strategy was to deploy somewhat spread out with jake/wedge together at a board edge opposite the opponent's main force and the Z near the middle, inside from the obstacle where the opponent deployed. Blount/Braylen would be somewhere between those, sometimes with Braylen facing down my board edge instead of towards the opponent if I really worried about a strong flanker.

Wedge's goal is to stay safe but make sure guns are on target at the same time as everyone else. Jake gives focus mostly to wedge but stays between wedge and the main force, Blount/Bray come up with the middle as the main target for the enemy, and the Z is just trying to be annoying.

For quite a few games, the Z would end up flanking because nobody wants to really do a super wide flank just to get behind a Z. As long as he slow rolls and survives, hopefully with some obstacle coverage, he can then jump in and be annoying. The trick is not jumping in too early so you can live at range 3 first.

By staying between wedge and the main force, Jake can come over to help Braylen/Blount as necessary. Several games, I found Braylen got blocked but Jake was able to come over and give him a focus to let him also br, which is quite strong.

With Braylen, the most important thing is to realize when you need to 2 hard and keep stress vs clear stress and then whether you need to stay unstressed or not. Something I needed to do better in the finals, as he stayed stress a little too much vs the squirrely aces and wasn't getting the shots he needed.

I think the real power of this list is that it doesn't present the opponent with great choices. Shooting Braylen and Jake is annoying as they have the highest defense. Shooting either z doesn't feel fantastic either, and Wedge is the hardest to get good shots on when everyone else is present and there's always the threat of him running away. Jake giving focus/boost to Wedge was also quite key in several matchups to get the best engage.

34 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

Leaving Wedge's boost open early so jake can let him focus/boost then do a blue then target lock is amazing.

Later in the game, boost isn't as relevant unless you have to run away and dodge arcs, chase a squirrely ace, or got out of position.

Having a spread out deployment limits your opponents options, but you have to make sure you can converge quickly. You definitely don't want the first round of shooting to happen without key pieces like Braylen/wedge unless it's just a single shot at the z or something. I think the finals opening was a good example of how the opponent didn't have anywhere great to go early game due to my positioning.

Man, this makes me so happy.

You're basically describing all of the tactics I used with Wedge/Luke/Thane/Jake (pre- points adjustment). I love that this kind of squad can so well if the player does their part.

Edit: It's honestly making me look super hard at Luke/Wedge/Jake/2 Bandits.

What alternatives did you considered to the list? Things like swapping Braylen for Ten (just an example) to enlarge the bid or getting more upgrades. Or what changes are you considering now?

2 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

What alternatives did you considered to the list? Things like swapping Braylen for Ten (just an example) to enlarge the bid or getting more upgrades. Or what changes are you considering now?

Braylen is just so much better, I wouldn't want to change that. Not sure what I would want to change. Probably going to experiment with other random lists now.

@Boom Owl thanks for this thread, i threw the list in my box so i wasn't sucking the life out of newer players with chopper jedi. The list is strong, but not oppressively so. It's really fun and your initial write up made a few things click.

@DTDanix I was watching some of your games and I noted that you usually put your obstacles all range 2 from your opponents board edge, this kinda runs contrary to what I've felt is conventional wisdom with this sort of list, would you be willing to share some insight on your turn zero plan, or specifically what your thought process behind the backline obstacles was?

8 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

@Boom Owl thanks for this thread, i threw the list in my box so i wasn't sucking the life out of newer players with chopper jedi. The list is strong, but not oppressively so. It's really fun and your initial write up made a few things click.

@DTDanix I was watching some of your games and I noted that you usually put your obstacles all range 2 from your opponents board edge, this kinda runs contrary to what I've felt is conventional wisdom with this sort of list, would you be willing to share some insight on your turn zero plan, or specifically what your thought process behind the backline obstacles was?

If you want to hear DT talk more about the list: https://libertysquadron.podbean.com/e/episode-56-worlds-ace-squad/

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

If you want to hear DT talk more about the list: https://libertysquadron.podbean.com/e/episode-56-worlds-ace-squad/

can you type it for me? I don't like listening to x wing podcasts

16 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

can you type it for me? I don't like listening to x wing podcasts

Sure:

Day 2:
Top 64: 104th Battalion PilotObi-Wan Kenobi + Calibrated Laser Targeting + Sense + R2-A6Luminara Unduli + Calibrated Laser Targeting + C1-10P104th Battalion Pilot
Top 32: Fenn Rau + FearlessBoba Fett + Shield Upgrade + Maul + Lone Wolf + Slave I + Proximity Mines
Top 16: "Echo" + Passive Sensors + Fifth Brother + JukeDarth Vader + Passive Sensors + Afterburners + HateLieutenant Sai + ST-321
Top 8: Fenn Rau + Crack ShotBoba Fett + Hull Upgrade + Maul + Fearless + Slave I + Proximity Mines
Top 4: Captain SeevorTorkil Mux + Moldy CrowCartel MarauderCartel MarauderCartel Marauder
Final: "Whisper" + Passive Sensors + Fifth BrotherGrand InquisitorDarth Vader + Passive Sensors + Afterburners

Ace + Squad General Notes

• 5 or more ships typically, sometimes Ace+3 can be a squad but it plays differently

• Mix of Ships and Inits

• Usually good but not best at jousts

• Able to lose a piece and stay functional, typically only one of the 5 is expensive

• Good at setting Screens for the Ace

• Can full formation joust if needed

• Brings a jousting force opponents cant or dont want to ignore which makes flanking with the ace easier

• Averages out matchups kinda? Has reasonable answers to alot of lists/archetypes

• Enough pieces to threaten Aces

• Enough pieces/higher init to manage beef

• Vulnerable to normal swarm counters (attacks from multiple angles etc)

• Ace opponents can punish you for keeping a close formation, or they can carve out exposed flankers / box builders

• First Engage dictates alot, can end up in multiple smaller engages after that dont favor you

• Hard to keep all 5 arcs on target turn to turn, turrets help

• Enough pieces available for something to block without giving up to much offensive output

• Typically builds great boxes but varies list to list, some have more “individual” threats than others

• Because it usually has multiple pieces in the end game “traditional” highly mobile aces arent required for it to work, though it helps

• 5 pieces go to time fairly easily and depending on statline can hold mov well, or choose to play the same game as Ace run to time or Swarm oh its time already.

• The archetype allows many different in game strategies, openers, and end game scenarios.

• Almost every faction can build Ace + Squad

• If all small base your win conditions against Double Ensnare typically exist and play out in the first engagement. Unless you have list counters like bombs turrets stress etc

Random Ace+ Squad Lists From Lists Folder:

• Caution Several Are Nonsense

First Order:

• Kylo + SF + SF + SF + Ep
• Kylo + Scorch + SF + SF + Ep
• Kylo + Scorch + Longshot + Omega + Ep
• Kylo + Scorch + Omega + Omega + Rivas
• QD + Scorch + 4 Ep
• QD + SF + SF + Ep + Ep + Ep

Scum:

• Guri + 4
• Guri + 5
• Fenn + 4
• Fenn + 5
• Fenn + 4 HLC Sycks
• Old T + 4

Empire:

• Vader + Soontir + 3 Acd
• Soontir + Howl + Iden + 2 Crack Ties
• Soontir + Howl + Iden + 2 Acd
• Soontir + 5 Crack Ties
• Soontir + Duchess + 3 Strikers
• Soontir + Duchess + 7th + Aggressor + Aggressor
• Whisper + 4 Strikers

Rebel:

• Luke + Wedge + Jake + 2 Bandits
• Wedge + Braylen + Jake + Blount + Bandit

Resistance:

• Poe + Rose + Finn + Tali + Greer
• Poe + Lulo + Talli + Greer

Republic:

• Obi + Ric + Ani N1 + Torrent + Torrent
• Obi + Ric + Broadside + Torrent + Torrent
• Obi + Chopper + Broadside + Torrent + Torrent

Separatist:

• Sun Fac + Vultures

He...did type it.

the madman actually did it

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Sure:

Day 2:
Top 64: 104th Battalion PilotObi-Wan Kenobi + Calibrated Laser Targeting + Sense + R2-A6Luminara Unduli + Calibrated Laser Targeting + C1-10P104th Battalion Pilot
Top 32: Fenn Rau + FearlessBoba Fett + Shield Upgrade + Maul + Lone Wolf + Slave I + Proximity Mines
Top 16: "Echo" + Passive Sensors + Fifth Brother + JukeDarth Vader + Passive Sensors + Afterburners + HateLieutenant Sai + ST-321
Top 8: Fenn Rau + Crack ShotBoba Fett + Hull Upgrade + Maul + Fearless + Slave I + Proximity Mines
Top 4: Captain SeevorTorkil Mux + Moldy CrowCartel MarauderCartel MarauderCartel Marauder
Final: "Whisper" + Passive Sensors + Fifth BrotherGrand InquisitorDarth Vader + Passive Sensors + Afterburners

Ace + Squad General Notes

• 5 or more ships typically, sometimes Ace+3 can be a squad but it plays differently

• Mix of Ships and Inits

• Usually good but not best at jousts

• Able to lose a piece and stay functional, typically only one of the 5 is expensive

• Good at setting Screens for the Ace

• Can full formation joust if needed

• Brings a jousting force opponents cant or dont want to ignore which makes flanking with the ace easier

• Averages out matchups kinda? Has reasonable answers to alot of lists/archetypes

• Enough pieces to threaten Aces

• Enough pieces/higher init to manage beef

• Vulnerable to normal swarm counters (attacks from multiple angles etc)

• Ace opponents can punish you for keeping a close formation, or they can carve out exposed flankers / box builders

• First Engage dictates alot, can end up in multiple smaller engages after that dont favor you

• Hard to keep all 5 arcs on target turn to turn, turrets help

• Enough pieces available for something to block without giving up to much offensive output

• Typically builds great boxes but varies list to list, some have more “individual” threats than others

• Because it usually has multiple pieces in the end game “traditional” highly mobile aces arent required for it to work, though it helps

• 5 pieces go to time fairly easily and depending on statline can hold mov well, or choose to play the same game as Ace run to time or Swarm oh its time already.

• The archetype allows many different in game strategies, openers, and end game scenarios.

• Almost every faction can build Ace + Squad

• If all small base your win conditions against Double Ensnare typically exist and play out in the first engagement. Unless you have list counters like bombs turrets stress etc

Random Ace+ Squad Lists From Lists Folder:

• Caution Several Are Nonsense

First Order:

• Kylo + SF + SF + SF + Ep
• Kylo + Scorch + SF + SF + Ep
• Kylo + Scorch + Longshot + Omega + Ep
• Kylo + Scorch + Omega + Omega + Rivas
• QD + Scorch + 4 Ep
• QD + SF + SF + Ep + Ep + Ep

Scum:

• Guri + 4
• Guri + 5
• Fenn + 4
• Fenn + 5
• Fenn + 4 HLC Sycks
• Old T + 4

Empire:

• Vader + Soontir + 3 Acd
• Soontir + Howl + Iden + 2 Crack Ties
• Soontir + Howl + Iden + 2 Acd
• Soontir + 5 Crack Ties
• Soontir + Duchess + 3 Strikers
• Soontir + Duchess + 7th + Aggressor + Aggressor
• Whisper + 4 Strikers

Rebel:

• Luke + Wedge + Jake + 2 Bandits
• Wedge + Braylen + Jake + Blount + Bandit

Resistance:

• Poe + Rose + Finn + Tali + Greer
• Poe + Lulo + Talli + Greer

Republic:

• Obi + Ric + Ani N1 + Torrent + Torrent
• Obi + Ric + Broadside + Torrent + Torrent
• Obi + Chopper + Broadside + Torrent + Torrent

Separatist:

• Sun Fac + Vultures

Ace + squad squad gang gang rise up!

@DTDanix

I was surprised about choosing 1pt bid and 4 cracks over R2 regen for Wedge. In the finals (which is only one game), it was hard to get the cracks off, with one barely missing bullseye, and one time with Jake Init-killed. I think Braylen used it once.

It seems like, if Wedge was able to regen for two turns after blopping Vader that the end game would have been significantly easier.

What was your thought process behind not choosing Regen?

24 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

@DTDanix

I was surprised about choosing 1pt bid and 4 cracks over R2 regen for Wedge. In the finals (which is only one game), it was hard to get the cracks off, with one barely missing bullseye, and one time with Jake Init-killed. I think Braylen used it once.

It seems like, if Wedge was able to regen for two turns after blopping Vader that the end game would have been significantly easier.

What was your thought process behind not choosing Regen?

I only killed vader because of crack. If the dice had gone my way, I think I also would have been able to kill the inquisitor with it, but maybe it was just out.

Wedge rarely gets to live long once shot at and if you're forced to run away to try to live you can miss out on key damage turns you need to swing the game. I found more reliable damage more useful.

The bid also gives you the opportunity to use the i1 as a blocker against other i1 lists, which can be the difference between the engage you want or block city.

On 10/21/2019 at 8:14 PM, Bucknife said:

@Boom Owl wl, so what are we gonna name this list?

The Real Rebel Salad?

Rebel Spaghetti?

Wedge is still on top?

MakeBlountGreatAgain?

Jake's Revenge?

Train Robbers? (Bandit, haha)

.....

Space Bandit’s

1 hour ago, DTDanix said:

I only killed vader because of crack. If the dice had gone my way, I think I also would have been able to kill the inquisitor with it, but maybe it was just out.

Wedge rarely gets to live long once shot at and if you're forced to run away to try to live you can miss out on key damage turns you need to swing the game. I found more reliable damage more useful.

The bid also gives you the opportunity to use the i1 as a blocker against other i1 lists, which can be the difference between the engage you want or block city.

Wedge chooses violence

31 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Wedge chooses violence

It's really his only choice.

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

It's really his only choice.

Thematic AF

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Thematic AF

Wedge's most defensive thing he can do is kill someone before they kill him.

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Wedge's most defensive thing he can do is kill someone before they kill him.

it's not jousting if there's nothing left to shoot back

4 hours ago, jagsba said:

it's not jousting if there's nothing left to shoot back

Ah, the Dale Cromwell School of X-Wing!

On 11/13/2019 at 9:34 AM, Boom Owl said:

If you want to hear DT talk more about the list: https://libertysquadron.podbean.com/e/episode-56-worlds-ace-squad/

So i actually went back and listened because i had a longish drive, you are a great interviewer brother! Glad i listened

Bump because DT's Worlds list is still incredibly wholesome and the list never really got the attention it deserved.

Sadly...203 Pts total now.